All my used carto's are TOAST !!

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Scottbee

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Sep 18, 2009
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Actually, before I get into all your other statements, please let me know if you agree that these are synthetic fibers.

I do not know the exact material composition of the inner wrap of filler batting on the KR808D-1 style cartoizers (and since there are multiple vendors and multiple configuration, giving a blanket answer would be dead wrong anyway).

I also do not know the exact material composition of the "supplemental wick" that is in the 510 atomizer and directly contacts the coil. I also do not know the exact material composition of the inner core used on the 901, 510, RN, M-series, and virtually all other atomizers. But it's not metal. And it may "burn".

I also do not know the exact material composition of the "metal mesh" that is used to surround the coil on most atomizers....but "experts" have said that it also "burns" and that it can/is soaked in something that gives off rancid "smoke". I don't know what that is either.

And since I don't exactly know, I'm not going to be foolish and declare them harmful or unsafe. But I may have some concerns.
 

lorikay13

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Clear!!! And well put...thank you Scottbee. Now hopefully we are all done with our internal dogfight and can move on to the OP's motivation....posting factual photos along with our usage patterns so that hopefully we can be taken seriously. :D

I do have to make one comment though....I saw somewhere in this thread the statement...."as a 30 year smoker I'm not too concerned....." I would ask you to be concerned for Kimmy....do you see how young she is ???? We all need to be concerned for not only ourselves but ALL the young and very young people who where smart enough to start vaping. What a horrible horrible thing if we find out 20yrs from now that JUST LIKE BIG TOBACCO,greed and profit grabbing allowed a product to stay on the market that eventually kills and mames beautiful young bodies.

Now....my religously adhered to carto routine:
Take off cap and center wire/replace cap
Use plunger method to install 10 drops into battery end
30 second centrifugal spin
Take off cap again/add 10 more drops directly to edges of filling/replace cap
Another 30 second spin
Add 1-2 more drops directly through battery end

I make a real effort not to use the ecig as a pacifier. Sit down and "have a vape" then set it aside and leave it. Frequently it sits for hours without being touched. I have 6 batteries and continually rotate between them so no cart is getting used excesively. All that and here is a photo of a cart I filled yesterday morning. I carry a 3ml bottle with me so I can add 3-5 drops every couple hours if I have been using it. Yesterday I was at the dr for several hours and at a non-vaping friends house for several hrs after that...so no vapingfor half the day.I took this photo at the first hint of an off taste around 8pm. BTW...I was using a fine quality squeeky clean juice in my opinion, Halo.

As for the new "premium" carts....this is just my opinion since no, I am not an electrical engineer. What I asked for for months and months was a higher quality wire....as well as a filling that would wick properly and that to my knowlege is NOT the same thing as what we got, ie...the "low resistance" wire. What we seem to have gotten is a wire that gets even hotter faster....therefore burns more juice even faster...and leaves an even worse burnt out mess in my experience.
 

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unit40

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There you go guys! The toaster is on fire again. But today was my lucky day.Today I just got my order of genuine 901 atomizers and some blank carts. Rinsed the atomizer and primed it with some cleaning puffs. Made a blue foam dart mod earlier this AM. Filled the cart with 12 drops, stuffed in the dart, added a few more drops and......I can taste everything now the way it should be. No more burning, toasted filler, NADA!!! Nice, clean vape. I'm vaping and tasting my Tasty Vapor Tobacco for the first time like I never could before. No more chemical smell coming from an empty, brand new cartomizer either. But more importantly, NO WORRIES !!!
 

lorikay13

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Yep!!! I think I forgot to say that as well as the Greencig carts Drew at Nhaler now also has in stock the coveted KR8 to 401 adapter! So you can use the KR8 battery with a 401 atty and dip. Or as stated....just use the dart mod or whichever filler you like and the 401 cartridges. Another good solution.

Here's the bottom line folks...how to "force" the issue without going all FDA....stop buying the product....that is the entire foundation of this wonderful capitalistic new world order we live in. :)
 

Guineahill

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I know there may be issues. I have taken all the facts and suppositions and made my decision. I will continue to use the product. I will be more vigilant about topping off and I will toss them more readily.

This doesn't mean I don't want answers. It simply means that I believe that for me the benefits outweigh the risks.
 

Kelemvor

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I also do not know the exact material composition of the "supplemental wick" that is in the 510 atomizer and directly contacts the coil. I also do not know the exact material composition of the inner core used on the 901, 510, RN, M-series, and virtually all other atomizers. But it's not metal. And it may "burn".

turning to glas imo, at least thats what i think it is after burning the wick from a 510 with a lighter.

and if thats what others find, i am ok with it.
 

SikVapor

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Regarding the GreenCig cartos, as I have stated before, I have used these and it is proof that there can be an integrated atomizer/cart design that does not succumb to the problem of burning, scorching, and melting. For whatever reason this happens, whether it's inherent design or user error (I tend towards the former), it happens as evidenced by photos in this thread. These definitely do not burn or melt filling once vaped dry and can be refilled, though that is not as easy to do with the GC as a conventional KR808 carto design and flavor is lacking. With the GC carto, we have a baseline design that we can work from and it would certainly be in a supplier's interest to pursue a redesign from the manufacturer. If not for the consumer's sake, but also from a profit-driven economical motive to capture market share. I think V4L would be in the best position to do this, with their relative power in this industry, connections with manufacturers, having Leaford as their rep in China, enormous fan following, etc. They would stand to benefit most from such a move, as well as having most of the advantages and resources to do so. However, if they do not, they must realize that they are not the end-all-be-all in the KR808 world, and some consumers here on ECF should be aware of this, too. In my limited amount of roaming around this forum, I do know of another company that works with manufacturers in the advancement of carto design, and that company is VaporNine.

The technicalities of electrical engineering and whatnot is not my forte, but I have read in the V9 subforum about their version of the premium cartos and how it differs from other supplier offerings. From what I understand, their design achieves its performance without lowering the ohm rating, resulting is a lower operating carto temperature compared to other supplier's premium designs, while retaining the superior performance over a standard KR808 carto. Pertaining to the issue of this thread, I find this to be of significance. I have not had the chance to try V9's version, but I would love to see the dissected innards once vaped to it's refilling/disposal point.

As a concerned consumer, I am happy this issue is being kept alive after being dismissed for so long. Whatever everyone's opinion on the matter is, I think we all can agree that it definitely is an issue of concern and any progress towards an improved design, not only in performance but also safety, will be appreciated by all who have an interest. In my opinion, this is a unique point in the ecig timeline for a company to come in with a better carto design where the profit potential is very high. Consumer's are willing to pay for a proven safer product, I know I am. Ease of use cartomizer, good flavor, good vapor production, without burning and scorched filler? Sign me up as a customer for life. Everybody wins with an improved carto design; consumer's have peace of mind, businesses add to their bottom line, and it is better for the entire ecig industry in the long run. Smaller companies like V9 may have a more difficult time in undertaking such an endeavor than a company with more resources like V4L, but the forfeited profit potential from inaction should not be overlooked. If it is too much trouble to pursue such a task, I would argue that the opportunity cost from standing pat is much greater, not only economically but also within the inevitable FDA vs ecig industry conflict. I just hope we see signs of progress sooner than later.
 
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unit40

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Jan 22, 2010
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So it seems, yes, that despite evidence of the appearance that polyfill and other components of the infamous cartomizer are toasting up, our own forum members will continue using the cartomizer. Fantastic. Doesn't it remind me of each and every time I light up (used to light up) a cigarette, knowing how bad it is (was) for me, yet I did it anyway because I was hooked, and I liked smoking too much. So if the cartomizer proponents wish to inhale all of that stuff, well it's no better or worse than smoking a .... like they did before, I guess. Good luck to you. I don't even need to know any PPM's of whatever is being vaped off a toasting carto. No thanks. I'll stick to this KR808d-1/DSE901 combo thingy I have going on now. And just an update, this BFD cart mod is working great. No leaking whatsoever all day now, and it has been in my pants pocket while I have been outside cutting and chipping brush. Best thing though other than the much greater and improved flavor, is that I'm not wasting any juice anymore!! My cartos were getting tossed left and right, full to the brim with juice. Tossed because I would taste that "taste", tear them open and find them to have started to burn. What a hassle. Keeping them constantly topped off, flooded etc.....
 

Kelemvor

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The technicalities of electrical engineering and whatnot is not my forte, but I have read in the V9 subforum about their version of the premium cartos and how it differs from other supplier offerings. From what I understand, their design achieves its performance without lowering the ohm rating, resulting is a lower operating carto temperature compared to other supplier's premium designs, while retaining the superior performance over a standard KR808 carto. Pertaining to the issue of this thread, I find this to be of significance. I have not had the chance to try V9's version, but I would love to see the dissected innards once vaped to it's refilling/disposal point.

don't be to excited about those, i doubt that these will be a real step forward compared to standard cartos, concerning safety.

if they were more safe, they would made some noise of that fact.
 
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SikVapor

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Well stated Sik. I'm standing with you on those points. I totally agree.


Thank you. I have tried my best to express my opinions on this heated matter without ruffling too many feathers.

I have many cartos and I think I may put them up for cheap in the sale thread. Really though, I feel a bit torn b/c I've converted many people on ecigs, in particular the KR. I wonder if I have subsituted one evil for another, while the people I've convinced to switch are oblivious to it. The KR model is marketed as "fool-proof" but in reality, to use it "safely" it is high maintenance. Obviously, we are here on ECF so we are constantly exposed to other user experiences with the products we use to vape, the tips and tricks, and trials and tribulations. We learn how to use our products efficiently and properly. Not all ecig users are like this, they are not ecf or ecig forum regulars. They just want a simple product to vape thats easy to use without the hassle. With its disposable carto design, the KR was supposedly made for these types. Can that notion be thrown out of the window, now?

I have on order some atomizers and juice from Litecigusa, I was a noob and didn't realize I needed cartridges too. The learning process continues...
 

Guineahill

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So it seems, yes, that despite evidence of the appearance that polyfill and other components of the infamous cartomizer are toasting up, our own forum members will continue using the cartomizer. Fantastic. Doesn't it remind me of each and every time I light up (used to light up) a cigarette, knowing how bad it is (was) for me, yet I did it anyway because I was hooked, and I liked smoking too much. So if the cartomizer proponents wish to inhale all of that stuff, well it's no better or worse than smoking a .... like they did before, I guess. Good luck to you. I don't even need to know any PPM's of whatever is being vaped off a toasting carto. No thanks. I'll stick to this KR808d-1/DSE901 combo thingy I have going on now. And just an update, this BFD cart mod is working great. No leaking whatsoever all day now, and it has been in my pants pocket while I have been outside cutting and chipping brush. Best thing though other than the much greater and improved flavor, is that I'm not wasting any juice anymore!! My cartos were getting tossed left and right, full to the brim with juice. Tossed because I would taste that "taste", tear them open and find them to have started to burn. What a hassle. Keeping them constantly topped off, flooded etc.....

Whoa! I have done a great deal of research on this. I have looked up toxicology studies that analyze the various stages of combustion of a variety of synthetic and natural fibers. I have read dozens of journal articles and discussed the matter with several professionals in the fire sciences and medical fields. I do not know exactly what polymers are used in the filling of cartomizers and therefore I feel it would be irresponsible of me to claim to be an authority on the matter. I feel quite confident in making a decision for myself based on the information I have. Just because my decision doesn’t coincide with your decision doesn’t mean I’m an idiot or a fool and it certainly doesn’t warrant sarcasm or belittling.

I supported the request for more information from suppliers or manufacturers. However, at this point it is my personal opinion that this thread has gone beyond the point of usefulness into the realm of conjecture.
 

unit40

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Jan 22, 2010
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Apologies given sincerely. My thoughts are as follows. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. You like the pudding. I look at a burnt carto with my own eyes. I taste a burnt carto with my own tongue. I really don't need more than that. I believe you are implying that the thread now be locked down. If that is the case, I do not agree. But conjecture aside, have you found during your studies any polymers that you would feel comfortable inhaling during any of the stages of their combustion?
 
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skydragon

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I do not know the exact material composition of the inner wrap of filler batting on the KR808D-1 style cartoizers (and since there are multiple vendors and multiple configuration, giving a blanket answer would be dead wrong anyway).

I also do not know the exact material composition of the "supplemental wick" that is in the 510 atomizer and directly contacts the coil. I also do not know the exact material composition of the inner core used on the 901, 510, RN, M-series, and virtually all other atomizers. But it's not metal. And it may "burn".

I also do not know the exact material composition of the "metal mesh" that is used to surround the coil on most atomizers....but "experts" have said that it also "burns" and that it can/is soaked in something that gives off rancid "smoke". I don't know what that is either.

And since I don't exactly know, I'm not going to be foolish and declare them harmful or unsafe. But I may have some concerns.

I know next to nothing about attys since I have never used one but Thy did send me one which I am going to try. Hence I can't comment on those except to say I too have read what you have stated.

Regarding the cartos. I'm sure you are aware I can't answer the specific questions you threw out. I don't have access to my lab. I leased it to the FDA.

What I do know is that to the best of my knowledge there is no synthetic fiber that is not extremely harmful to inhale while it is burning. They are full of chemicals as well. Even if the material were say 100% organic cotton, it would be harmful.

I showed my cartos to firemen I know including the Fire Marshall. I asked if they had a choice of entering a room full of tobacco smoke or a room that had synthetic fumes/smoke in it, which would they choose. Hands down it was the room with tobacco smoke. Why? Because the room with the synthetic burning material can cause extreme lung damage and possibly death very quickly. Not by being overcome by smoke inhalation, but because of the toxicity of burning synthetic materials.

I hate defending analogs over this. I hate the fact that I now have to worry about the cartos as I have used them exclusively since I started vaping. I hate this turning into a pissing match because that isn't what this should be about. Mostly I guess I hate the fact that the vendors, who from what I gather have been aware of the problem, have done nothing. In my opinion it makes them no better than the tobacco companies.

You mentioned how if the FDA were to get wind of this and find these cartos are toxic, it would be the end of this. And you are right. It would be catastrophic to us. So the vendors need to start regulating themselves before the government steps in to do it for them. I don't think any of want to see that happen. Which I suppose is why we are trying to get them to listen!
 

skydragon

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Here's the bottom line folks...how to "force" the issue without going all FDA....stop buying the product....that is the entire foundation of this wonderful capitalistic new world order we live in. :)

Hey lorikay,

No one is "going all FDA" That should have never even been mentioned. Just because we would like to be able to use cartos but feel safe about it, doesn't mean we want the stupid FDA involved and it is a horrible analogy.

And yes I suppose I might feel as if I have to stop using cartos but I will tell you, I will not buy any more products from the big players as they could have addressed this and didn't. So if I have to make that choice, there is no way they are getting any more of my money for anything.
 

Katmar

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    I know next to nothing about attys since I have never used one but Thy did send me one which I am going to try. Hence I can't comment on those except to say I too have read what you have stated.

    Regarding the cartos. I'm sure you are aware I can't answer the specific questions you threw out. I don't have access to my lab. I leased it to the FDA.

    What I do know is that to the best of my knowledge there is no synthetic fiber that is not extremely harmful to inhale while it is burning. They are full of chemicals as well. Even if the material were say 100% organic cotton, it would be harmful.

    I showed my cartos to firemen I know including the Fire Marshall. I asked if they had a choice of entering a room full of tobacco smoke or a room that had synthetic fumes/smoke in it, which would they choose. Hands down it was the room with tobacco smoke. Why? Because the room with the synthetic burning material can cause extreme lung damage and possibly death very quickly. Not by being overcome by smoke inhalation, but because of the toxicity of burning synthetic materials.

    I hate defending analogs over this. I hate the fact that I now have to worry about the cartos as I have used them exclusively since I started vaping. I hate this turning into a pissing match because that isn't what this should be about. Mostly I guess I hate the fact that the vendors, who from what I gather have been aware of the problem, have done nothing. In my opinion it makes them no better than the tobacco companies.

    You mentioned how if the FDA were to get wind of this and find these cartos are toxic, it would be the end of this. And you are right. It would be catastrophic to us. So the vendors need to start regulating themselves before the government steps in to do it for them. I don't think any of want to see that happen. Which I suppose is why we are trying to get them to listen!

    This is so extremely important, sky. I was doing my own research, and unlike Guineahill, who is comfortable in his/her decision to continue using these carts, my research came up with what you are saying. Synthetic fibers of ANY kind that burn are hazardous. You do not need to know the exact fiber. You speaking to the firemen was a great idea and only served to prove the point that these burning carts are a REAL problem.

    The fact that we don't even KNOW they are burning on the inner part while we are still inhaling is where the BIG issue is. You cannot "taste" that at that point. So, by the time you might TASTE the funny marshmallow thing, you have inhaled too much.

    Thank you again.
     
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    Katmar

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    SikVapor and Unit40,
    Thank you for hanging in. I am like you, Sik, I have lead my friends and family the kr8 way because I loved them and they got me off of cigs, but I now feel it was not a great tradeoff. I regret dragging them into this, but I take that responsibility seriously and they are now aware and have found the burnt carts themselves. I have made suggestions of either buying some 901 attys or Greencig carts, since they both work on the kr8 batteries.

    I see no reason that this thread would be closed. We are concerned and we are trying to call attention to this serious issue. Open discussion should continue. Suppliers should sit up and take notice.

    As you said, Sik, if Greencig can do it, why can't kr808???? I am willing to pay a little more for a safer ecig. Excellent post!!!!!

    Unit,
    I am with you. I do not wish to inhale ANY type of burnt synthetic fiber. I do not care to "wait" to find out "how" hazardous it may be.
     

    miss MiA

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    Skydragon, in case you still wanted to know, I just PMed you instructions for making multiple quote boxes out of a post you're responding to (or alternatively, replying within the body of the person's text using an effect to make your part stand out from theirs, such as a different color).

    Hope it's comprehensible! Was gonna post it here, but typical typical (for me), it got unintentionally long, so I didn't know if it would be too much of an OT space hog! :p
     
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    miss MiA

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    Oh and, simply to help lessen any angst, I wanted to re-post Scottbee's clarification of the context in which he used the phrase "going all FDA," since you said this again subsequent to his clarification:

    skydragon said:
    No one is "going all FDA" That should have never even been mentioned. Just because we would like to be able to use cartos but feel safe about it, doesn't mean we want the stupid FDA involved and it is a horrible analogy.

    He had previously replied...

    Scottbee said:
    [...] That wasn't my intent. The FDA came down on e-cigs with a horribly biased analysis, lacking specific testing details and analytics, yet still basically proclaiming them to be "unsafe" and perhaps even dangerous. [...]

    I don't know him and obviously can't speak for him, but I'm pretty dern sure he meant it in the sense of the things that were wrong with how the FDA drew and disseminated its conclusions; not in the sense of someone asking or 'defacto asking' for FDA involvement/scrutiny(!). (Not indicating you should or will like that usage either, and not expressing any opinion, just helping clarify.)

    Whew! Ok, glad you guys talked that one out again. ;)

    Oh and one more potentially crossed wire I noticed, a semantics thing. When Scottbee comes back to saying "No we don't KNOW that it's unsafe" (or whether it presents a problem besides not knowing), I think he's speaking in terms of only a professional, technical, scientific standard of what is required in order for it to be accurate to state/conclude/'know' something is or isn't safe. Pretty much a yes or no matter: Do we know what kind of poly fiber it is, and has it been tested under the unique conditions applicable to vaping, or not? If not, then as far as statements or claims that can be made, it can only be technically, factually accurate to state that we don't know. Hmmm, maybe it's just too early, or maybe it could be looked at as a distant cousin of the ol' "Have you stopped beating your wife yet" question. (...was gonna put a smiley or wink there but somehow didn't seem right following a sentence containing "beating your wife...")

    Possibly-mediocre analogy: Many of us probably feel that the existing data we can cobble together already does "prove" (and there's no such thing as "pretty much proving") that ecigs have to be (well nope, can't say "have to be" either, not part of a factual sentence, implies guessing) safer than real cigs. But we can't say that, would be a false claim as it results only from a 'common sensical,' fallible, scientifically unproven leap.

    We can't even say that we know inhaling PG via vaping is safe (or at least long-term), despite the positive relevant studies we do have, including on use in things like medical inhalers; because it has not been studied in the way vapers are actually using it -- in this comparatively great amount and frequency. Maybe hundreds of 'hits' per day, vs. a few occasional inhalations over a day or week or month with something like an asthma inhaler. (Actually, I've heard at least one long-timer big cheese here say there's a variant of Nicotrol inhaler that contains PG, so may be a less pointy point if so.)

    I hope that was cohesive and made sense (didn't sleep last night, insomnia strikes again! :-/ ), but regardless, to the scientist or engineering reader I'd imagine the way I've assembled my attempt at refocusing is at best "quaint" lol. ;)

    Again, this isn't meant to express any opinions whatsoever, nor to minimize anything. Just trying to help spread global peace and harmony, like I always do. :D :p
     
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