All these threads regarding safety and regulations, and my ranting

[Bovinia]

Part of the frustration that some of us feel gets expressed on the forums in a heated manner. That frustration comes from the fact that many of us are behind the scene writing vendors and suppliers looking for answers to our concerns. Unfortunately there is very little cooperation on that side. Some brush us off, some say they don't use diacetyl but won't address the AP or 2,3 pent chems, some don't bother to reply and some just down right lie. This is the reason emotions run high with this subject.

We won't make progress in a positive direction until the community comes together for disclosure. Whether or not others care about their health, there are those of us who care for everyone's health in this.

 

[GoodDog]

I can appreciate where you're coming from, Mark, and I hope you can see that many with the same banner as you have given us the same rhetoric and attacks because we want disclosure. Your favorite supplier was a good example of how some vendors treat those that want more accountability BEFORE the FDA makes them. To me, their responses show who are in this for the long run and those just until "their" bubble bursts. I've seen several other vendors promote the more verbal fan base only to have it backfire... every time. For those that have been around awhile to see this trend gets old real fast, especially when these vendors are exposed enough times for people to see through their hype.

Personally, I'm for more vendor accountability across the board, from following their states laws on operating a legal business to disclosing ingredients. Like others have said, it's better we do it than have the FDA do it for us. It IS going to be one or the other because it can't continue without accountability.

 

[Edwv30]

Thank you Mark...that means a lot. It has been painful for all of us...don't know why that is but it will, hopefully, be worth it in the end.

 

[Zelphie]

You my friend are delusional.

It's simple economics...If a product is found to be unsafe (except for tobacco, that is) or have some issue that needs to be corrected, the manufacturer will eventually have to change that product to regain consumer trust. If not, he will not stay in business very long.

Changing his formulas is much easier and cheaper than fighting litigation or facing possible bans.

I'm just saying that if vaping survives the no-smoking onslaught and becomes an approved alternative to smoking, improvements will have to be made and safety issues addressed. Unfortunately, we will probably be vaping a little diacetyl for some time to come.

Either you are willing to take the risk or you aren't. No one is twisting anyone's arm here. Some of you act like you have been personally attacked by the EVIL Juice Makers!!! Grow up!

 

[Fernand]

Bovi, I don't understand what you expect the juice vendors to do -- they can't know what is in all the flavorings. Only the top tier flavor-makers can, and that after interaction with THEIR suppliers.

FlavourArt has done it and said they only use diacetyl, not AP (or Acetoin?). So if it's complete and they keep their table up to date, a mixer who exclusively uses FA flavoring can do the calculation for each juice they sell. From that we can calculate vaping exposures, and/or decide what to avoid. Once the other flavor-makers also do it, then, and only then, can the juice mixers comply. Isn't that right?

But i would wait a bit. The suspense now is whether acetoin shows the same toxicity. I have asked if taste-wise acetoin can completely replace the others, and the initial reply from an expert was that it can. So I'm crossing my fingers. If the NTP acute inhalation studies on Acetoin don't show the same toxicity in animals, I would accept that for now. Then the task would be to eliminate diacetyl and AP from flavorings ASAP. The most important disclosure would become whether the substitution has been completed, and whether old stock of flavoring has been discarded. I don't know if any company would choose to stick with the more dangerous old stuff, but as long as they inform their downstream, they could.

But if Acetoin is about as damaging, we've got a much much more difficult mess. Are we on the same page?

 

[Bovinia]

Bovi, I don't understand what you expect the juice vendors to do -- they can't know what is in all the flavorings. Only the top tier flavor-makers can, and that after interaction with THEIR suppliers.

FlavourArt has done it and said they only use diacetyl, not AP (or Acetoin?). So if it's complete and they keep their table up to date, a mixer who exclusively uses FA flavoring can do the calculation for each juice they sell. From that we can calculate vaping exposures, and/or decide what to avoid. Once the other flavor-makers also do it, then, and only then, can the juice mixers comply. Isn't that right?

But i would wait a bit. The suspense now is whether acetoin shows the same toxicity. I have asked if taste-wise acetoin can completely replace the others, and the initial reply from an expert was that it can. So I'm crossing my fingers. If the NTP acute inhalation studies on Acetoin don't show the same toxicity in animals, I would accept that for now. Then the task would be to eliminate diacetyl and AP from flavorings ASAP. The most important disclosure would become whether the substitution has been completed, and whether old stock of flavoring has been discarded. I don't know if any company would choose to stick with the more dangerous old stuff, but as long as they inform their downstream, they could.

But if Acetoin is about as damaging, we've got a much much more difficult mess. Are we on the same page?

We're close to being on the same page Fernand. Part of the problem is some of flavoring manufacturers are withholding information that is needed to make choices. We're not asking for recipes here, we are asking about certain chems. These companies know whether or not their flavorings contain these chems. Our vendors need that info and so do we as consumers. FA has an incomplete list of flavors containing diacetyl. I know it is incomplete because I emailed Max about a specific flavor that wasn't on the list and he said the flavor does contain diacetyl and he would update the list immediately. That was several weeks ago and the list is still not updated.

We don't want or expect flavor companies to stop using these chems, just tell us which ones are in what. Especially the flavor companies who have a vaping section on their site. It just doesn't make any sense to me that a company that has to make employees wear a respirator to mix these chems would turn around and knowingly sell them for inhalation use.

My point is that the pressure to disclose has to come from somewhere, and who better than the consumer?

 

[Zelphie]

FlavourArt has done it and said they only use diacetyl, not AP (or Acetoin?).

Ya he alluded to the fact (in an indirect and *possibly* misleading way) that they dont use diac. or AP in the vape heaven line but didnt respond to questioning on acetoin.

 

[Fernand]

OK. We do want the same thing right now, which is that each Flavor-Maker post a list of ALL flavorings they sell that contain diacetyl and/one of the diacetyl equivalents (currently Acetoin, Acetyl Propionyl, 2,3 Hexanedione, 2,3 heptanedione and diacetyl trimer) with percentages. If one of the substitutes emerges later as significantly safer, we will press for it to replace the others and for disclosure to continue.

Recent statements from investigators privy e.g. to the Acetoin-only results are unfortunately not bursting with optimism.

I have confirmed that some flavor-makers do not have complete formulation info on hand because they purchase from compounders higher in the food chain, who don't like to part with secret recipes. In these cases the flavor-makers must make a plea, much as we are making, to their upstream. The simplest is to work from a production formula sheet, but this is what competitors want to obtain. This might be another reason for delays and omissions, which of course they must be reminded to remedy.

The truth of the matter is that, with modern GLC, reverse-engineering a production formula is not very difficult or prohibitively costly, they all do it routinely, when a competitor's flavor becomes popular, so maybe in time the industry will open up a bit.

The company I have been working on has taken the first step by flagging "buttered" flavors.

BTW, I'd like to know what the flavor you were asking FA about was. I do rely on their list.

I wouldn't be too suspicious if flavor makers disclose diacetyl and omit discussing acetoin or AP. These are literally two and three times more expensive than good olde diacetyl, $285 for 500g vs. $88, that really adds up, so why bother to use them?

 

[Bovinia]

@Fernand, the flavor I asked about was Catalan Cream. It sounded like it should be on the list, but I was so hoping it wouldn't be lol.

 

[Fernand]

I just talked to some people and here is more behind the scenes information. The REAL flavor-makers are not who we see. Flavourarts may be one of the very few who actually compound their flavors, but even that is doubtful. With rare exceptions, all flavors are actually made by a handful of chemical labs, we will call them the flavorlabs, who stay out of the limelight. They simultaneously supply competing brands, and thus are protective of their customers' proprietary products. A flavor-maker may not even know that what makes his particular flavor taste better than a competitor's is the amount of diacetyl, and the flavorlabs are not eager to disclose formulations.

Why is that? Because they want to keep their customers, and because their flavors are intended strictly for foods, by far a bigger market. Because of the emerging huge liability issues, flavorlabs are increasingly outright refusing to sell to flavor companies that sell to the e-liquid makers. This is because, diacetyl and friends aside, NONE of the chemicals have been tested for inhalation safety. The flavorlabs are being told by the flavor-makers that what they buy will only be sold for food use. We will probably see more and more disclaimers and exhortations to "not vape our flavors".

What some see as lack of cooperation results from a complicated situation, where people cannot disclose what they do not know. Where full disclosure has been tried, it is very difficult for a flavor-maker to be sure that their list is complete. Even if they were intimately involved in the design of some flavors, most are purchased as-is from the flavorlabs. The end-users create/compound the problem by demanding that the flavors have the wonderful character that only the diacetyl-type compounds can provide. Our expectation that flavor-makers publish percentages on all flavors they "make", as we would like, is close to impossible, unless someone regularly submits samples for full analysis. On all but the most popular vape-flavors, the ongoing cost could dwarf any income from sales.

Sometimes mixtures from one flavorlab get mixed with mixtures from another, both intended for, and perfectly safe for, food and the resultant mix ends up being purchased for vape. It is important to remember that butterers are perfectly safe to eat. I know that several favorite flavors turned out to contain diacetyl itself, though the flavor-maker thought they did not, and samples are being analyzed as we speak.

Some people are looking into a possible better approach to the problem which would involve making our own measurements on flavoring and on actual e-liquids, using techniques that lower cost by selectively detecting the butterers. In the end that may be the best way to be sure and to obtain some real concentration in vapor figures. I will keep you informed as it develops.

 

[GiMante]

It is starting to seem to me that the only way that flavoring will be deemed safe, is if there are flavorings produced from the beginning strictly for vaping. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

[shanagan]

It is starting to seem to me that the only way that flavoring will be deemed safe, is if there are flavorings produced from the beginning strictly for vaping. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I agree, Gi. And we're not even sure we have any safe starting point in what might be safe to heat and inhale.

 

[Zelphie]

Your right Mark. Thank you, this is a very nice sentiment

I didn't want, or expect, this thread to heat up the way it did, and I appreciate you reaching out to me with these posts. Obviously, there is more "passion" about this than I realized, but it hasn't fallen on deaf ears. As Ferdnand said, the "tone" here put me off a bit, but the concern is valid.

I won't pretend to share the same sense of urgency that I get from this thread, but I do agree vendors need to be more forthcoming about their ingredients, work to produce flavors without diacetyl or acetoin, unless a safe level can be established, and to replace other unsafe chemicals.

If I find a way to speed up that process, I will use it and pass it along. In any case, I appreciate the info, as painful as its been, and I'll do my share of research on the subject.

 

[Fernand]

It would be great to at least get a few measurements using a worst case, a medium and a low level vape. In the meantime, people should be aware of this specific danger and make up their own minds. If a lot of vapers are taking a "don't wanna hear abou'did" stance, it's our fault for not knowing how best to inform. Now that I understand the commerce mechanics better, I am all the more convinced that nobody is actively & deliberately concealing anything, and that any demanding or confrontational tactic just alienates people.

To me, using light flavoring using flavors not likely to contain butterers is hugely different from pouring in 15% or more of a vanilla custard concentrate the way some do. Let's remember that even allowing for some butter flavoring at the level Flavourart posited, in the vapor we estimated 0.036 ppm, as opposed to 4.3 ppm for the 15% case, and it's not rocket science that the latter entails a LOT more risk. OSHA is pondering a PEL of 0.03 ppm, but also considering 1 ppm. The point is that if you use light flavoring, your odds are much better. People who are hopelessly attached to heavy flavoring would ideally only use the ones least likely to ever contain diacetyl type compounds.

 

[Edwv30]

It would be great to get a "no measurement" scenario out there. Diacetyl causes irreversible lung damage and is dangerous...period.

Fernand..I have agreed with you on many posts but disagree with you on more. We need to know...what is your degree\education? Most people educated in the medical field would push for NO exposure...not exposure based on worse,medium and low levels. We are not lab rats....

 

[Zelphie]

Ed, that a good question. Id like to know as well.

 

[HeatherC]

It would be great to get a "no measurement" scenario out there. Diacetyl causes irreversible lung damage and is dangerous...period.

Fernand..I have agreed with you on many posts but disagree with you on more. We need to know...what is your degree\education? Most people educated in the medical field would push for NO exposure...not exposure based on worse,medium and low levels. We are not lab rats....

We aren't huh??? What about all the drugs they put out that do more harm than good. The physicians oath is First Do No Harm. Not don't experiment on unsuspecting public..or whatever. As far as I read there are only 3 Deaths attributed to inhalation of diacetyl and those were workers in a popcorn factory. I'm not saying I vape butter flavors or that I recommend that anyone else does. I'm not even saying that this isn't serious or a serious problem for those who contract it. What I am saying is there have been people inhaling this stuff at work since they began making butter flavored microwave popcorn (sometime in the 80s I believe) and 3 deaths attributed to diacetyl inhalation in more than 20 years....well the concern while maybe valid is overblown at best. BTW the information I found about deaths related to this I found with a google search... you can do one too.....just search for deaths attributed to diacetyl inhalation.

 

[SimpleSins]

We aren't huh??? What about all the drugs they put out that do more harm than good. The physicians oath is First Do No Harm. Not don't experiment on unsuspecting public..or whatever. As far as I read there are only 3 Deaths attributed to inhalation of diacetyl and those were workers in a popcorn factory. I'm not saying I vape butter flavors or that I recommend that anyone else does. I'm not even saying that this isn't serious or a serious problem for those who contract it. What I am saying is there have been people inhaling this stuff at work since they began making butter flavored microwave popcorn (sometime in the 80s I believe) and 3 deaths attributed to diacetyl inhalation in more than 20 years....well the concern while maybe valid is overblown at best. BTW the information I found about deaths related to this I found with a google search... you can do one too.....just search for deaths attributed to diacetyl inhalation.

I googled, too, but maybe there is a difference in sources. Your number three is correct, but that is the number of cases diagnosed with bronchiolitis obliterans at one particular popcorn plant in Missouri. There were also several other cases of pulmonary compromise among the employees at the same factory.

Ironically, OSHA laws state that anyone working with products containing more than 1% diacetyl must be made aware of the respiratory hazards, but for some reason people don't seem to think those who use it in its most hazardous form deserve the same respect.

Hazard Communication Guidance for Diacetyl and Food Flavorings Containing Diacetyl

 

[Fernand]

What I meant about measurements was that we could measure how much e.g. Diacetyl is in vapor using GLC using say three levels in the liquid. This would allow, at relatively low cost, to create a better model with which to estimate other concentrations. As more information becomes available, this would be very useful. I had a lab in mind that is competent in the SPME headspace GLC technique. But of course this requires some planning and entails costs, and it doesn't seem like anybody here even sees any value in it, so I guess you will wait for the duly empowered to TELL you.

Similarly, if you want to know my "qualifications" and you would be influenced say by a pill-counter certificate, you are sheep. Other than valuing my privacy, it would be most unfortunate if substantive issues were weighed in either direction by another yet inevitable sidetrack, regarding the value of this or that prior experience. Use your heads, the information is available, the logic can be evaluated, do the reading and come to your own conclusions -- or wait to be spoon fed answers by the proper authorities.

 

[HeatherC]

I googled, too, but maybe there is a difference in sources. Your number three is correct, but that is the number of cases diagnosed with bronchiolitis obliterans at one particular popcorn plant in Missouri. There were also several other cases of pulmonary compromise among the employees at the same factory.

Ironically, OSHA laws state that anyone working with products containing more than 1% diacetyl must be made aware of the respiratory hazards, but for some reason people don't seem to think those who use it in its most hazardous form deserve the same respect.

Hazard Communication Guidance for Diacetyl and Food Flavorings Containing Diacetyl

It is also possible, just maybe, that i did more of a scan than an actual read of the info......so I'd be betting your info is more accurate My memory isn't great either and it was a few weeks ago that I was looking this info up. I guess I'd read that there were 3 actually deaths from bronchiolitis obliterans due to the inhalation of the butter flavoring in said popcorn plant.

I do however agree that a warning label that the product contains diacetyl and what the risks of exposure are.....(these are the requirements of the FDA for food and other products currently containing this chemical compound) necessary and prudent.