All these threads regarding safety and regulations, and my ranting

[Fernand]

Simple, it's a matter of degree. But if you claim it's the same, I disagree. Americans, as people, are taught JudeoChristian ethics from infancy, and have internalized the concepts of the American Constitution and Bill of Rights much more than the British or Europeans. America has fallen a lot in the last decade, become more "pragmatic", children have not been raised as "close", and corporate workers are pressured to serve their employer, but still, it's far far different from people who were taught to pretend to serve the fatherland and the party above all, that all traditional values are laughable lies, that older people who talk about traditions or religion are dangerous reactionaries, and then (rather suddenly) that making money and getting ahead are after all very important. Imagine how different, after all, that is from what you were taught! No, it's not xenophobic to recognize social/historical effects. It has a huge impact on what is at least reasonably believable, like can you at least in part believe what it says on labels.

So Banjo, it's a "rant" if it's against Chinese business practices, but if it's against American ones you don't react?

 

[banjo]

Blink again, and we are now discussing "JudeoChristian ethics", the "fatherland," and "traditional values."

 

[Automaton]

Blink again, and we are now discussing "JudeoChristian ethics", the "fatherland," and "traditional values."

Um, this. We could get into a whole debate about what "JudeoChristian ethics," as seemingly defined here, have actually brought us, but I won't.

Sorry, but yeah, that does strike me as a xenophobic rant.

People are people where ever you go. Don't tell me that the country that hard-sells Chantix and markets cholestrol drugs that don't work and may make matters worse for the purposes of money is above that.

The fact is, the majority of people anywhere are somewhat unthinking. Thinking people anywhere are pretty much the same. And truthfully, the views you've expressed here are a little scary and nationalist.

 

[SimpleSins]

I don't believe Fernand meant to be xenophobic, but rather I think he has a cockeyed optimism that cultural differences would prevent us here in the states from the same money-making shortcut type conduct the Chinese have exhibited in manufacturing, which, considering we're founded on capitalism, seems a rather misguided hope as has been demonstrated repeatedly by the disregard shown to consumers in virtually every industry.

 

[Fernand]

Yes, those ARE the proper terms. But I was trying to tell what I had seen and heard, and how it affects the issue of disclosure. Never mind.

It is not realistic to paint this in black and white. I'm saying it's a matter of degree. Of course we are based on capitalism, but it's of a nuanced sort, with one foot on the bible. Very strange, but different from what has happened in China.

But strange how Amaricans are so polarized. One half thinks free enterprise is God-given, and the other half sees nothing but evil in American business.

 

[banjo]

Thanks Mistress. I didn't really want to .... in, but when I'm on ECF, it really disturbs me to see discussions devolve to the level this one has - "totalitarian Maoist system", "fascist totalitarian system", "JudeoChristian ethics", "corporate workers... pressured to serve their employer", "the fatherland and the party", "traditional values", etc.. It is kind of like entering a time warp, or suddenly "jumping down the rabbit hole.

 

[Automaton]

It kind of disturbs me too. This is one of those nationalist "golden years" fallacies. Look at any country, at any time, "Christian" or otherwise, and you see plenty of examples of unthinking people being unthinking people.

And actually, as time is moving on, things are mostly getting better, almost everywhere, even as we become less "Christian." Clearly "the bible" has little to do with it.

And for the record, would you like to know why you don't see people defending American companies when they get jumped on, like some do with Chinese companies? Because American companies don't get jumped on very much. Despite the fact that we have American mod suppliers making mods that won't take protected batteries, or fail in spectacular ways.

None of this is to diminish problems in the Chinese market. I won't vape Dekang for that reason. But I also know my partner's American-made mod became dangerous and unstable after only a week of use (protected batts and all).

This goes both ways. If you think for a second American corporate culture is, or has been, much better about protecting the health of the people, you need a history lesson. As a matter of fact, most Chinese factories being run by American corporations are operating under OUR guidelines.

I'm not black and white at all. You are painting me as black and white. I am merely pointing out the flaws in that theory, which happens to necessitate that I take the negative position.

Can we please not get on a "my religion/country is superior" tirade? It's kind of really offensive.

 

[banjo]

So Banjo, it's a "rant" if it's against Chinese business practices, but if it's against American ones you don't react?

No. It is a rant when the language used is emotive rather than rational. And, why do you presume to know where I stand on American business practices?

 

[Fernand]

Well, it's easier to keep it light, but the terms I used were not used in anything but a technical and accurate descriptive sense. I didn't presume anything at all! I asked why you reacted to one post but not the other.

You can see how difficult it is to communicate. I didn't say one was superior. What I said is that when a people are indoctrinated in Judeo Christian ideas it makes many of them act in certain ways, and the same is true of the way Chinese were raised during the Maoist years. It is sociologically accurate, and not that I subscribe to one or the other. Personally, I find the American blend of Protestantism and capitalism distasteful, but then again I was in China right before the shooting in Tien An Men square, and have watched the changes there without quite the enthusiasm some people have. It's difficult to communicate when people make giant assumptions about the views of the other party. I wasn't assuming anything about anyone here, and I was trying to use the correct historical/sociological terms to describe what I had witnessed, and what I had inferred.

 

[Automaton]

You seem to quite clearly be describing "JudeoChristian" as superior. If I mistaken, I am clearly not the only person who read it that way. And I haven't really seen you address any of the deficits in our own culture.

China today is not Chine of the Maoist years. It's still a developing nation in some ways, but a lot of what may be impeding them has a lot to do with us, not the other way around.

Kinda like us taking our internment camps off shores so as not to be subject to American human rights laws. This kind of crap is everywhere, not just in China.

 

[iJax]

wow wild ride on this thread. FTR- I quit smoking after 20+ years. I vaped on and off since my neighbor was a big vaper. Then stopped vaping, then started vaping again. Then quit again and now I am vaping 0nic and see no reason to quit.

So if you are looking for the single person on this forum who vapes for the heck of vaping without any monkey on their back, I am it.

 

[Fernand]

Let me state what I was saying a little differently: statistically, more Americans are hypnotized by their so-called Christian morality and wish to conform so as to tend to think it is improper to misrepresent, than contemporary Chinese, who have been taught differently, and are more pragmatic about such things. Of course workers in companies everywhere are enclined to do what they are told to do by their bosses.

As to the companies, American and multinational companies are ruled by greed, in a short term perspective, colored by the beliefs of their workers and managers. Chinese companies have more to answer to, in the government, and thus tend to act in ways less personal, more exactly aligned with the tactical, strategic and economic goals of the Chinese People, as expressed by their government, and as distinct from the goals of other nations.

iJax, I would say I both smoked and vape for the heck of it.

 

[banjo]

Fernand: what you intended to imply in your post was quite clear, and the language you chose to use clearly demonstrates that. My post was a reaction to that language, and the fact that you chose to interject your personal political and religious beliefs into what was an interesting discussion of a serious problem. Most of us are here on ECF to gain knowledge, discuss serious issues, and support each other, and your post pretty much upset that process. And, your attack on me -I don't care how you try to re-phrase what you said and implied - was uncalled for.

 

[iJax]

iJax, I would say I both smoked and vape for the heck of it

One of the OPs request was to find a pure vaper.
While you maybe able to quit cold turkey, no one can suggest I am vaping due to an addition. They can not exclude you since there is no nicotine free analogs.

edit...didnt read the past tense SMOKED.. I read the present verbiage "smoke" ....so if you vape 0mg nic we are both pure vapers.

 

[banjo]

statistically, more Americans are hypnotized by their so-called Christian morality and wish to conform so as to tend to think it is improper to misrepresent, than contemporary Chinese, who have been taught differently, and are more pragmatic about such things.

You just proved my point. What does any of this have to do with the subject at hand?

 

[Edwv30]

Fernand...no need to clarify. I understood your points in the original thread and no offense was taken. This thread is being twisted into something it's not because it raised concerns about Diacetyl and related chemicals. This "twisting" has happened several times in the past in order to "flag" posts and have the mods shut threads down. Let's keep the subject on topic and hope a thread with legitimate concerns remains open.

 

[Fernand]

Ijax, I vape with nicotine because I like nicotine. In addition, and distinct from my liking it, I don't think it's unhealthy for everyone. In my case it's borderline because of very slight circulatory deficit in the legs. I also love the clouds of vapor and I love massively flavored juice, especially sweet and buttery flavors. I drastically reduced the flavoring because I consider THAT the highest risk. Similarly out of the whole range of options for enjoying nicotine AND for enjoying blowing smoke (which activity is fun) burning the tobacco is likely more unhealthy than inhaling nicotine in Pg/Vg, sort of the worst choice.

P.s. The way we got ballistic was on the question of how useful and how credible various disclosures were. I just minimize all flavorings, with regret I must say, but it's acceptable.

 

[banjo]

I don't think anyone is trying to get this thread "flagged," but I do believe that many people would enjoy it much more if personal religious and political beliefs were kept out of the posts.

 

[Automaton]

I don't think anyone is trying to get this thread "flagged," but I do believe that many people would enjoy it much more if personal religious and political beliefs were kept out of the posts.

This. If you would like to call me a troll, kindly do so directly.

I'm pretty sure I've never flagged a post, except for obvious spam, and once when someone was just outright insulting myself and others. I'm just seeing a lot of dogmatic generalizations and nationalism here that don't belong in this thread. If you want to do that, go to the Outside, where people will tolerate proselytizing.

 

[Edwv30]

This. If you would like to call me a troll, kindly do so directly.

I'm pretty sure I've never flagged a post, except for obvious spam, and once when someone was just outright insulting myself and others. I'm just seeing a lot of dogmatic generalizations and nationalism here that don't belong in this thread. If you want to do that, go to the Outside, where people will tolerate proselytizing.

MistressNomad...why do you turn every post into an "I" or "Me" thing? Has anyone said these responses have anything to do with you? Seriously...can we stay on topic?