Am I the only one who wants vaping to change?

[VpnDrgn]

This is getting tiring. Again, I never said I want the FDA involved. I don't. There are lots of ways to standardize things. Just because you have an agenda doesn't mean my thread has something to do with it. Yes, of course I've bought stuff from cake sales. No, I don't only buy stuff checked by the health dept. let me clue you in. BUYING A GLASS OF LEMONADE FROM MY NEIGHBORS LITTLE GIRL IS DIFFERENT THEN INHALING VAPOR FOR THE NEXT 20 YEARS. Do you not get that? I'll say this for the last time also. YOU CAN'T STOP IT! Doesn't matter how the chips fall in court, when they do fall someone with deep pockets will be waiting to jump in. This is America and and you can't make a law that says only mom and pop operations are allowed to make e-cigs. If the industry goes unregulated the appropriate guy with big money will get in. It could be BT or just some super rich guy who sees an opportunity. If it gets regulated up the tail than again the appropriate guy with big money will get in. Be it BP or just some super rich guy. Unless the product is banned someone will get in. Guys with big money are not stupid. They are not going to invest millions in a product that still has a questionable future. When the chips fall the money will be invested. Don't get mad at me it's just a fact. To much money to be made for the rich guys to sit and watch.

In general, your original statement has some merit. But, you are new to vaping and don't understand most of our history with vaping.
The FDA, BT, and BP have already shown their intent in regards to vaping. Preliminary testing was skewed to show how dangerous
vaping was. ( ref. the scare tactics about PG and antifreeze ) The FDA tried to step in and shut down ( not regulate ) e-cigs, and it
took the courts to slap them down and point out that they had no jurisdiction. Then they tried to attack from the BP angle in regards
to vaping being a cessation device and therefore needed to be regulated under stricter drug protocols. Again, they were angling for
a complete shutdown, not any kind of refinement for safety. Strict drug protocols would have shutdown e-cigs completely for years
of testing, and that is assuming anyone would be willing to spend money to test something that would threaten billions in tax revenues.

What you want can only be done by the industry, if we allow gov't to step in, they have already shown they are not interested in
seeing e-cigs succeed. That's like watching congress vote on their own salaries and benefits. The gov'ts own self interest demands
that they do nothing that would threaten all that tax money coming from tobacco, be it the taxes from BT itself, or revenue from
BP and gov't programs that are supposed to help us quit.

Yes, there is a lot of anti-gov't rhetoric in this thread. But, that is because Uncle Sam has already shown their true intent in regards to
vaping. There would be no appropriate ( or reasonable ) regulations, they have shown that they want a complete shut down.

To use your own reference to five star restaurants, the health dept. does not give out five star ratings. Those come from some restaurant or
food critic association that everyone in that industry has agreed has a knowledgeable enough opinion to matter. So, I say again,
vaping needs to be regulated, but it needs to be done by the vaping industry, because they are the only ones that want to see vaping
succeed. ( other than us, the consumers, of course ) I think this is the basic opinion at the bottom of most of the responses in this thread.

 

[WarpWarrior1]

Liquid is the only thing that really needs regulation. And I mean it really needs it. You could be buying your liquid from some low life that makes their fluid on the same table the family just ate breakfast on and you would never know it.

They could be using ingredients that are sub par or even obviously dangerous.

There need to be real penalties for not meeting reasonable standards.

It will be difficult for the community to accept. There seems to be a very strong libertarion streak in this community.

 

[Tanti]

Liquid is the only thing that really needs regulation. And I mean it really needs it. You could be buying your liquid from some low life that makes their fluid on the same table the family just ate breakfast on and you would never know it.

They could be using ingredients that are sub par or even obviously dangerous.

There need to be real penalties for not meeting reasonable standards.

It will be difficult for the community to accept. There seems to be a very strong libertarion streak in this community.

If you do your homework you wont be buying from anything but a good reputable place. Hum low life I wonder how many low lifes work for the tobacco industry, hum for them to do what they did that makes them all low lifes.
Truely if someone is making bad juice or gets a bad reputation it gets around and nobody buys from them.
There are plenty of brick and mortar place you can order from that have health department checks, just do your homework.
People are this cause of what they want to do if given a change to this industry, so we cringe when ever anyone says "regulation", the market will sort it self out given time, but mean time there is plenty of good places to order from. Check out pinkspotvapors

 

[pizza2me]

Am I the only one who wants vaping to change?

um.... ya.... I think you are

 

[Hulamoon]

However, all evidence of what happens when government gets involved in anything that will put a buck in THEIR pocket proves time and time again, they will make the substance as addictive and adulterated as they possibly can.

Don't believe me - look at the ingredients in a can of beans. Look at the amount of salt in a can of campbells soup.

Look at the FOUR THOUSAND ingredients in a cigarette. Look at ingredients like arsenic, ammonia anti-depressents especially. Look at the amount of needless sugar that is put into anything and everything gvt has a hand in.

Then convince me that government will produce a better uncontaminated product than a mom n pop shop that has sunk all their money into this enterprise and is relying 100% on feedback from forums like this one to break even and maybe make a small profit.

The track record speaks for itself. Government interference here is based on 1 thing only - ALL money goes to them, and to get all money in THEIR pockets from YOUR pocket, they will make the e-liquid as addictive, as adulterated and as dangerous as they do with everything else they stick their nose into, or have allowed and condoned with their pals in big corporations, big tobacco and big pharma to get away with.

Liquid is the only thing that really needs regulation. And I mean it really needs it. You could be buying your liquid from some low life that makes their fluid on the same table the family just ate breakfast on and you would never know it.

They could be using ingredients that are sub par or even obviously dangerous.

There need to be real penalties for not meeting reasonable standards.

It will be difficult for the community to accept. There seems to be a very strong libertarion streak in this community.

 

[Kropotkin]

However, all evidence of what happens when government gets involved in anything that will put a buck in THEIR pocket proves time and time again, they will make the substance as addictive and adulterated as they possibly can.

Don't believe me - look at the ingredients in a can of beans. Look at the amount of salt in a can of campbells soup.

How in God's name does "government" put salt in Campbell's crappy soup, or force Heinz to make terrible beans?

What you're grousing about here is called CAPITALISM.



Has everybody around here gone completely insane?

 

[Hulamoon]

Why don't you read the original question and stop lifting words out context to be rude. - "Government interference here is based on 1 thing only - ALL money goes to them, and to get all money in THEIR pockets from YOUR pocket, they will make the e-liquid as addictive, as adulterated and as dangerous as they do with everything else they stick their nose into, or have allowed and condoned with their pals in big corporations, big tobacco and big pharma to get away with

If you are so comfortable about what is already approved and condoned in so called "regulated" products, then just go back to smoking. Me. I'll stick with mom n pop vaping shops. Thank you.

How in God's name does "government" put salt in Campbell's crappy soup, or force Heinz to make terrible beans?

What you're grousing about here is called CAPITALISM.



Has everybody around here gone completely insane?

 

[Kropotkin]

How does all of Campbell's Soup's money end up "in THEIR pockets"?

(And there's no need to shout. You're simply not making much sense.)



Edited to add:
Actually, it sounds like you want more government regulation, not less. Is that what you're saying?

 

[Hulamoon]

Well then, stop skipping pertinent and relevant portions of the post and learn to read before being rude.

I believe the original question was about regulation. The FDA is reviewing e-cigs in April.

I was proving a point as to what really happens when the gvt sgets involved and "nobly" regulates products for us nincompoops. They allow and endorse big biz, big pharma and big tobacco to get away with killing people via tobacco and drugs as well as fixing labels to hide all the poisonous rubbish they put into everyday things most chemicals of which have less basis than the FDA claims our VG PG and nicotine does.

I think it is very very clear from my previous posts that e-juices are a damn sight purer now than you will ever expect them to be once Big T and Big P gets their hands on them via the gvt source the FDA.

And it is all about money, not your health. Show me a politician who only makes his salary and isn't sitting on a corporate or pharma or tobacco BoD getting significant kickbacks from his Ivy League buddies and I'll maybe listen to your justification.

Why on earth anyone would want regulation from above at this stage beats the hell out of me.

 

[Kropotkin]

Believe me - I agree with you about Big Business and Big Pharma (and Big Ag to boot). I can't stand any of them.

What I don't understand is how people can simultaneously yell and scream about too much government meddling, and then get mad because the government fails to step in and tell Campbell's how to make soup. This is simply inconsistent, and makes for a very poor argument. Either you demand that the FDA do a better job or regulating processed foods et al, or you revel in the free market and take your chances.



And no: I certainly don't want to see Big T take over the eliquid market. I agree that this would be a disaster for us. I simply wish that Americans would simmer down already, and try to think these issues through calmly.

 

[Trick]

What I don't understand is how people can simultaneously yell and scream about too much government meddling, and then get mad because the government fails to step in and tell Campbell's how to make soup. This is simply inconsistent, and makes for a very poor argument.

That's not what she said at all.

Her point is that regulation of our food has done us absolutely no good when it comes to things like that soup. I can tell you without any doubt that the can of soup you're talking about is much less healthy than something I'd make at home in my kitchen counter... the same one "the family just ate breakfast on and you would never know it," to quote WarpWarrior above.

If the other products we ingest are any indication, there's nothing to be gained from government regulation. At best, they'd be pointless. At worst, they'd set standards in a way that would push the people who are currently making very good, unadulterated juice right of the market and we'd be left with the vaping equivalent of Campbell's.

Personally, I'd rather "take my chances." as you put it. I'd feel safer.

 

[Hulamoon]

OK - I see how you misinterpreted my point of view.

I was using examples of beans and soups as examples of what will pass as "pure" once you allow regulators to step in. Just the word "regulation" opens the door to agencies poking their noses in order to further the interests of their buds BP and BT.

In other words, will I make my own baked beans, my own soup and buy from Mom n Pops, HHV, Want2Vape and all those places. Or will I rely on regulations to mess around with the purity of those juices and make them the same horrible chemical concoctions as Campbells, or Reynolds?

Our small ejuice vendors have a lot more accountability, and a lot more to lose if their offerings were found wanting in any way.

On the other side of the coin, I do believe we should use the good sense God gave us and understand that if you're going to buy some nasty looking motor oil fluid from some furtive bloke on a street corner that you're taking a chance and it's probably not a wise one.

Believe me - I agree with you about Big Business and Big Pharma (and Big Ag to boot). I can't stand any of them.

What I don't understand is how people can simultaneously yell and scream about too much government meddling, and then get mad because the government fails to step in and tell Campbell's how to make soup. This is simply inconsistent, and makes for a very poor argument. Either you demand that the FDA do a better job or regulating processed foods et al, or you revel in the free market and take your chances.



And no: I certainly don't want to see Big T take over the eliquid market. I agree that this would be a disaster for us. I simply wish that Americans would simmer down already, and try to think these issues through calmly.

 

[Lethalp]

I have read a few pages of this thread and I see some of both sides. While I don't want gov or FDA telling me what or how to vape, I do wish that somehow we could do more to self regulate ourselves.
For instance to be a vendor on ecf u have to go through a process and be approved, but that is only on paper, it would make me feel better if there were some sort of on site inspection (by vapers!!) Before u could be a vendor. As I am sure u know not everything that looks good on paper really is.
Of course I get that ecf claims no responsibility for what any vendor does, but I feel that if there was at least an eyes on process that it would eliminate a lot of shady vendors that may have otherwise been let into ecf. I would love to think every vendor is honest and wonderful, but that's just not the case. We need someone looking out for vapers, especially new ones, but vets too. Ecf just seems the likely place to do it since they are the biggest and world wide.
Even tho I enjoy the mom and pop shops and appreciate the craftsmanship, it is still difficult to buy from vendors u just don't know. Even after almost 2 years I still wonder every time I hit that "place order" button if I am going to get took. Until I get what I paid for it's nerve racking.
But I still take that risk all the time and will continue to even if I do get ripped off, I would rather risk
my wallet than go back to cigs.
And who is to say that any FDA made ecig would be any better than what we have now? These are the ppl who lied to us already!! They are the ones pushing us to take chantix instead of Vape!!
No thank u, been there, done that. If I eat at a place and the food makes me sick, I don't go back, ever. So the FDA is not somewhere I want my ecig from. They can make sure.my nic is pure and stay out of the rest.

All I really want is a huge ecig market with mods, hardware and juice from every vendor so I can see and try it all, that's as close to Walmart as I want vaping to get.
Sent from my SPH-D710VMUB using Tapatalk 2

 

[DC2]

Here is Joe. He can drink a beer in two seconds flat and make one hell of a RY4. God bless America. Keep the corporations out.

Holy crap! That's the guy that made up the word "toot" for taking a drag!

 

[Hulamoon]

Hey, don't criticize him - he makes a hellacious 160 proof moonshine too. Dang! That just bought the whole discussion back to starting point again, doesn't it?
LOL

Holy crap! That's the guy that made up the word "toot" for taking a drag!

 

[Leatherneck]

Why is it that when it comes to this topic, everyone is an independent thinker all of a sudden......but last November...not so much?
*caveat* this is just a casual observance...not me being BRITISH. We do the same thing back home.

It's not all of a sudden for me. Not to go too deep into my politics, but my voting record (if I were to make it public) is as close to in line with my political beliefs as the ballot will let me get.

 

[NickyBlade]

Our small ejuice vendors have a lot more accountability, and a lot more to lose if their offerings were found wanting in any way.

This is exactly what I was thinking! How about restaurants... there are a goo gob that I won't eat at because the places are disgusting, but the health department doesn't shut most of them down. So, really, all the inspections do is waste the time and money of the reputable businesses. And any expense is passed on to the consumer because that's how business works. People don't go into business to lose money. And as for scientists... they change their minds constantly about what's safe and what's not.

 

[440BB]

Having a good relationship with a vendor like that means that when you let him know there was a hair in your juice, he asks you "what color?".

I believe we are in the golden age of vaping, with almost limitless choices. Every vaper can tailor their system and method to their needs and preferences. I'll enjoy my freedom to search out and choose the products and suppliers I prefer while I can. Capitalism has been working pretty well here, bringing the best ideas, products and vendors to the forefront.

Regulation will of course constrict the marketplace, so the only way newer vapers will get to find much variety will be to learn to be bootleggers, hopefully at the knee of an experienced mixer from this era. Those who happen to start vaping later will be less likely to stop smoking if the limited choices of flavors, strength and devices don't work for them. That is the biggest risk moving forward - a reduced adoption rate. Lives are at stake.

Most of us will look back on this phase of the vaping journey wistfully.

 

[Boiler]

Why do juice makers use USP graded Pg/Vg and FDA approved flavorings? Regulation is OK when they are buying, but not when they are selling. Is this a double standard?

 

[Iffy]

Is this a double standard?

No! Once the joose vendor opens a container of a USP ingredient for mixing, it's no longer USP certified... unless the vendor follows the same certification process as the original ingredient manufacturer.

Note that most, if not all, joose vendors publish "made with USP ingredients"; not "USP joose".