Another battery explodes

[mkbilbo]

Automotive batteries use a completely different chemistry and construction, but they can deliver lots of power or explode spectacularly.

Li-Ion cells are far more powerful, but have the disadvantage of being more "fragile". I'm not surprised that they aren't quite as common in electric cars.

Boeing tried them in the new 777 Dreamliner, but problems caused all 777s to be grounded, worldwide, for months. Turns out a couple of wires were crossed, and that the temperature sensors, which couldn't monitor a failure properly, weren't tied to a system to respond appropriately to a failure. The battery wasn't encased properly, and kinda threw off the airport's fire response teams, when they threw water on the problem...

(Shades of bad sci-fi disaster movies. "Atomic Train" was it?)

Actually, far as electrics go (and hybrids), Li-ions are the rule. Word is, Tesla alone is about to consume the world's battery manufacturing capacity as they ramp up.

The industry did have to do a great deal of work on isolating/balancing cells and anticipating thermal runaway but they got a pretty good handle on it and I don't know I'd be any more concerned about a full electric car over gas tanks and lead acid batteries. Maybe even less. Given that, I'd have to wonder about Boeing's, ahem, competence?

Actually, propane and natural gas powered vehicles worry me a tad more. If not the fact that compressed gas is on the touchy side, the fact that LNG importation is about equivalent to shipping armed nuclear warheads around cities (I've seen simulations of an LNG tanker explosion... words fail... it really is up with small nukes).

And this "hydrogen infrastructure" kick? My reply is a Monty Pythonesqe, "You're a loony!"

(Hydrogen is a delivery system, not a power source. We have an electric grid already. Why try replacing the entire thing with a gas that explodes just for the fun of it?)

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

Appreciate the benefit of your expertise, Mark. And yes--this is clearly another case of user stupidity error.

 

[DavidOck]

Hey, don't rag on Boing. Other than that they outsource too much now.

As you've said, a very few problems with lots and lots of hours and equipment. Yeah, maybe they needed a better enclosure, or better QC, or maybe just better user training....

Laptops on laps, cell phones to the ear....

Tough to design against stupid.

 

[BigBen2k]

I was just pointing out that Li-Ion are misunderstood; Boeing didn't do their homework, and someone had to remind them.

Li-Ion failures are rare, and I'm sure most of them are caused by improper charging. What may be less known, is that they're also prone to physical damage. The construction has improved over the years.

There's a fair bit of vibration from a car's engine, and driving conditions, that are rivaled by conditions in a flight. Li-Ion can be used in these vehicles, but it's not as easy as it sounds; there's a lot of thinking behind these.

All I'm saying is, e-cigs are not drumsticks.

 

[Rmervin]

How many batteries explode? How many people set a bed, a sofa, a house on fire mishandling a lit cigarette? How many of those call the press and blame it on the cigarette?

 

[Nightcall]

I have an off brand ego 650 mAh vv battery (3.2 3.7 4.2). It came with a usb charger with:

- input 5V 500mA
- output 4.2 420mah

Can I plug that usb adaptor in my Halo wall adaptor that has:

- output 5V 500mA

? I'm pretty sure yeah, but Im not entirely sure. Everything seems to match up to me.

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

I have an off brand ego 650 mAh vv battery (3.2 3.7 4.2). It came with a usb charger with:

- input 5V 500mA
- output 4.2 420mah

Can I plug that usb adaptor in my Halo wall adaptor that has:

- output 5V 500mA

? I'm pretty sure yeah, but Im not entirely sure. Everything seems to match up to me.

Yes. The output of the wall wart is the same as the input requirement of the charger dongle. They are compatible, but you should still monitor the charging process.

 

[Nightcall]

Yes. The output of the wall wart is the same as the input requirement of the charger dongle. They are compatible, but you should still monitor the charging process.

Thank you, that's what I figured. I'll keep an eye on it.

 

[mkbilbo]

I was just pointing out that Li-Ion are misunderstood; Boeing didn't do their homework, and someone had to remind them.

Li-Ion failures are rare, and I'm sure most of them are caused by improper charging. What may be less known, is that they're also prone to physical damage. The construction has improved over the years.

There's a fair bit of vibration from a car's engine, and driving conditions, that are rivaled by conditions in a flight. Li-Ion can be used in these vehicles, but it's not as easy as it sounds; there's a lot of thinking behind these.

All I'm saying is, e-cigs are not drumsticks.

They may not be drumsticks but if not handled properly, they make excellent fireworks!

 

[DavidOck]

I have an off brand ego 650 mAh vv battery (3.2 3.7 4.2). It came with a usb charger with:

- input 5V 500mA
- output 4.2 420mah

Can I plug that usb adaptor in my Halo wall adaptor that has:

- output 5V 500mA

? I'm pretty sure yeah, but Im not entirely sure. Everything seems to match up to me.

Unless the polarity of the voltage is different. You'd find that out as soon as you plugged it all together.

 

[mkbilbo]

I have an off brand ego 650 mAh vv battery (3.2 3.7 4.2). It came with a usb charger with:

- input 5V 500mA
- output 4.2 420mah

Can I plug that usb adaptor in my Halo wall adaptor that has:

- output 5V 500mA

? I'm pretty sure yeah, but Im not entirely sure. Everything seems to match up to me.

Yeah, you got that right. Think of it as "chaining". The output of the wall adapter goes to the input of the USB dongle which outputs to the input of the battery... yada and yada.

Since the output of the wall wart is 5v 500mA and matches the USB charger dongle input, there you go.

Actually, with the wall adapters you can use higher mA output just fine but must match the voltage. I have a wall adapter I use all the time that the output is 5v 2100mA. The charger dongle "pulls" 5v 500mA which is well within what the wall adapter can produce. The wall adapter doesn't "cram" all 2100mA down the poor USB dongle's throat.

(I have some that produce far lower amounts. They put out 5v but may only be capable of 150mA. That would be a bad combo. The USB charger tries to "pull" 500mA. The wall wart would overheat because it can't produce that kind of power and it'd burn itself out. It's a little like water flowing. Too much pressure in a small pipe, things break. Small flows in big pipes, no big deal.)

Easiest thing is match like to like. 5v 500mA out to 5v 500mA in. Check.

It's actually the connection at the battery these folks on the entertainment shows... erm, news reports get themselves in trouble. That funny looking 4.2v 420mA being output by the charger is at those numbers for good reasons. That's what the eGo style batteries charge at. Funny numbers but it's related to the whole chemical whatzits of the batteries.

(Funny numbers up against nice, even ones like 5v 500mA that is )

The woman in the story used a 3.7v ???mA charger with a battery that wanted 4.2v 420mAh. Obviously, the battery was not amused...

 

[mkbilbo]

Unless the polarity of the voltage is different. You'd find that out as soon as you plugged it all together.

Holy polarity batman!

That charger in the pic from that "news" site? That looks a lot like the one that my Blu kit had (yeah, I started with Bleah, I mean, Blu). Their "standard" kits are reverse polarity from pretty much everybody else on earth.

I'd forgotten about that. Those old reversed polarity 510s were discontinued ages ago (Volcano used to sell them a while back) and Blu is the only one I, myself, am aware is still selling them. Which doesn't mean nobody else is, I just don't know myself.

That would make a battery absolutely flip out. It has bugged me a bit that an underpowered charger should have burned itself out instead of causing thermal runaway in the battery. But reverse polarity? The 4th o' July came early this year!

 

[Nightcall]

The charger dongle "pulls" 5v 500mA which is well within what the wall adapter can produce. The wall adapter doesn't "cram" all 2100mA down the poor USB dongle's throat.

lol.

Thanks for all the info. This bit about mAh differential was helpful.

 

[Penn]

Holy polarity batman!

That charger in the pic from that "news" site? That looks a lot like the one that my Blu kit had (yeah, I started with Bleah, I mean, Blu). Their "standard" kits are reverse polarity from pretty much everybody else on earth.

I'd forgotten about that. Those old reversed polarity 510s were discontinued ages ago (Volcano used to sell them a while back) and Blu is the only one I, myself, am aware is still selling them. Which doesn't mean nobody else is, I just don't know myself.

That would make a battery absolutely flip out. It has bugged me a bit that an underpowered charger should have burned itself out instead of causing thermal runaway in the battery. But reverse polarity? The 4th o' July came early this year!

All the theories on what happened and I kept thinking, it still doesn't add up especially with the amount of time the lady said it took. This is the first thing that makes sense how it could happen in a similar fashion to what the lady claimed. Of course rattling the windows is still an exaggeration.

 

[mkbilbo]

All the theories on what happened and I kept thinking, it still doesn't add up especially with the amount of time the lady said it took. This is the first thing that makes sense how it could happen in a similar fashion to what the lady claimed. Of course rattling the windows is still an exaggeration.

When DavidOck posted, I had a forehead slap moment definitely. That's got to be the "missing piece". The charge chip trying to pull 4.2 @ 420 would, I would think, burn out the charger. I was having trouble imagining how thermal runaway could be triggered in the scenario of an underpowered charger connected to an eGo style battery. In fact, I would risk a guess that the chip in the battery would just refuse to work with the charger. I'm sure every eGo battery user is familiar with the "hand shake" that goes on when you screw the battery to the charger. Like my Twists blink a few times (never bothered to count how many) then the charge indicator LED on the dongle goes red. They both have control chips and while I haven't bothered to read up on what they're up to exactly, the chips are recognizing "there's a charger attached" or "oh look, that's a battery, let's see how much charge it needs" and blah, blah.

What I've seen of Li-ion charge curves, they're fairly simple but take a bit of finessing. That infrequent "blink" where the dongle flashes green seems to be (I'm speculating) a quick "check" of the voltage level. My chargers stay here on the desk so I see them out the corner of my eye and "blinks" catch my attention sometimes. I can tell the quick green blink shows up more frequently right before it goes solid green. And for the longest performance, there's a "saturation" period at the end. The battery is fully charged and less honest manufacturers can set things to indicate "ready" so it seems they have "faster" chargers. And the battery will be fine. It's just there's a period of time where the battery is close to 100% that needs to continue for a while to do chemical magic I'm not so well read on so the charge lasts longer.

There is, though, a limit to what small, commodity chips can do and a reverse polarity could just short the chip out immediately and leave the battery with no protection at all. I could see that very rapidly leading to thermal runaway.

"Four foot flames" and "rattled the walls", though... my personal reaction to that part of Miz Drama Queen's teevee performance could only be duplicated by assembling half the teenage population in the nation and having them do eye rolls and heavy sighs of the kind we all did when we despaired over our fossilized parents when we were that age.

I've watched the video a couple of times now and for "four foot flames", they had to hunt around to find a scorched spot on the rug and zoom in awful close to see it. I also wanna know why "four foot flames" and a "bomb" didn't launch her computer into the next room...

 

[Ayla1984]

Stories like this freak me out considering my kit only came with a usb charger. After frying an ecig using another brands charger I'm afraid to buy one not made specifically for that brand!

 

[Steve803]

This report's been out there for over a week now. You just can't make everything idiot proof. My eGo-c charger came with a disclaimer that say not to be used on a 510 battery because they would explode. Not everybody reads and follows the instructions that come with their devices. I haven't had any problems with my batteries and I always charge my batteries on the wall charger that came with the kit. I know I can use the USB port on my computer or a adaptor in the car, but I prefer the faster charge I get from the wall outlet. And IMO it is a safer way to charge batteries. Any battery for that matter. even my cell phone.

IMO she wanted her 5 mins of fame and the news reporter jumped on it. You don't see the reporters out there interviewing people who drive their cars into lakes bc they followed their nav's instructions to the "T". Hot button issues always seem to get the most attention. You shouldn't leave your batteries in a hot car to change. why? the warning labels that come with the batteries tell you not to. A little common sense will go a long way, but that just isn't an easy thing to accomplish. You just can't make everything idiot proof.

 

[mkbilbo]

Stories like this freak me out considering my kit only came with a usb charger. After frying an ecig using another brands charger I'm afraid to buy one not made specifically for that brand!

Well, I'd say don't "freak". You got a great resource right here we call ECF. I've been running my mouth a lot today but it's not like I'm the only member who understands the battery thing. Shoot, the folks who do "mods" know more than I do for certain. So if you're not sure, ask. Got a lotta expertise around this forum.

Other thing is, don't let the "news" rattle you. They love Big! Scary! Stories! it brings in the ratings and they can charge more for advertising. The thermal runaway that causes the dramatic death of a Li-ion battery is extremely rare. There are quite literally hundreds of millions in use in the US every day. Every cell phone, iPad, iPod, Kindle, laptops, you name it. If it's rechargeable, it's probably using Li-ion batteries. They're everywhere. But you only run into these "kaboom" stories once in a very great while. And I, at least, am aware of NO cases in which a thermal runaway in a consumer product Li-ion battery killed anybody. I can't say the same about the bath tub. Bath tubs killed 341 people in 2000.

No, I'm not kidding: Most Common Causes of Death Due to Injury in the US (scroll down to or search for "Accidental drowning and submersion"... data derived from the US Census via National Safety Council).

And apparently dinner killed 744. That is, "Inhalation and ingestion of food causing obstruction of respiratory tract".

Of course one should treat Li-ion batteries properly. But one should not fear them.

Dinner rolls, however, are out to get you...

 

[mkbilbo]

This report's been out there for over a week now. You just can't make everything idiot proof. My eGo-c charger came with a disclaimer that say not to be used on a 510 battery because they would explode. Not everybody reads and follows the instructions that come with their devices. I haven't had any problems with my batteries and I always charge my batteries on the wall charger that came with the kit. I know I can use the USB port on my computer or a adaptor in the car, but I prefer the faster charge I get from the wall outlet. And IMO it is a safer way to charge batteries. Any battery for that matter. even my cell phone.

IMO she wanted her 5 mins of fame and the news reporter jumped on it. You don't see the reporters out there interviewing people who drive their cars into lakes bc they followed their nav's instructions to the "T". Hot button issues always seem to get the most attention. You shouldn't leave your batteries in a hot car to change. why? the warning labels that come with the batteries tell you not to. A little common sense will go a long way, but that just isn't an easy thing to accomplish. You just can't make everything idiot proof.

Idiots are just too darn creative.

Which reminds me, someday, I must find the story behind the warning on hair dryers that reads: "Do not use while sleeping".

 

[Angiebubs]

I have to ask (read through the first 12 pages) I have fasttech batteries ranging from 650 mAh to 900 mAh as well as kGo 1100 mAh that I charge on the USB chargers from Fasttech. I charge some via a laptop and sometimes with the USB plugged into the wall charger. Is there any reason I need to be concerned? I am ashamed to say, I often plug these in and go to bed, I guess this is a habit I need to stop as well?