Another thought on Nic Hoarding

[tiyantiyan]

First, I understand perfectly why many buy huge quantity of nic for the possible FDA regulations and it's often fun to hoard something (at least to me!)


However, what's the best to do now?
Reasoning a bit and there shouldn't be any reason to hoard too much.

The worst case to happen is FDA poses regulation on Nic sale. (There is no possibility that I can think of that FDA could ban the nic sale. )

So what does the worse case mean? higher price of the nic!
Let's say double the price. Does this matter much? not quite to me.

If we store tons of nic (talking about liters of 100mg nic for years to use), these nic will turn bad in probably 2 or 3 years, no matter how we store it.

For me, nic enough for 1 year and that's the maximum I would buy now. That's $30 bucks at most.
By the end of the 1 year, the nic price could double, but at that time I would be happy to pay $60 for fresh nic, possibly better quality, better sourced, and importantly (ha!) regulated & tested by FDA.


This is much better to use old yellow nic at that time. No?
it should be well worth the extra $30 bucks I pay.


In addition, storing large quality of nic in fridge is not safe after all.
family member may take it or taste by mistake which you never know if it is there 24/7 and 365 days.


Just to make a discussion and see how you think.

Hopefully I don't miss any important point why some need to buy litters of nic (e.g., 2000ml 100mg) now.
Liters of 100mg seems to be a lot and would take YEARS to finish for a single person.

 

[stevegmu]

Fear mongering and paranoia. I can't think of any other reasons. When it becomes clear nicotine won't be banned, expect prices to drop...

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

First, I understand perfectly why many buy huge quantity of nic for the possible FDA regulations and it's often fun to hoard something (at least to me!)


However, what's the best to do now?
Reasoning a bit and there shouldn't be any reason to hoard too much.

The worst case to happen is FDA poses regulation on Nic sale. (There is no possibility that I can think of that FDA could ban the nic sale. )

So what does the worse case mean? higher price of the nic!
Let's say double the price. Does this matter much? not quite to me.

If we store tons of nic (talking about liters of 100mg nic for years to use), these nic will turn bad in probably 2 or 3 years, no matter how we store it.

For me, nic enough for 1 year and that's the maximum I would buy now. That's $30 bucks at most.
By the end of the 1 year, the nic price could double, but at that time I would be happy to pay $60 for fresh nic, possibly better quality, better sourced, and importantly (ha!) regulated & tested by FDA.


This is much better to use old yellow nic at that time. No?
it should be well worth the extra $30 bucks I pay.



In addition, storing large quality of nic in fridge is not safe after all.
family member may take it or taste by mistake which you never know if it is there 24/7 and 365 days.


Just to make a discussion and see how you think.

Hopefully I don't miss any important point why some need to buy litters of nic (e.g., 2000ml 100mg) now.
Liters of 100mg seems to be a lot and would take YEARS to finish for a single person.

The FDA could restrict sales to only licensed suppliers.

Liquid nicotine doesn't get old. After a few years it will just slowly (over years) lose its strength. It actually takes a few years just to lose 1 or 2 mg of its strength. I have well over 10 years stored so far. The key is freezing it in Amber bottles with virtually no oxygen in the bottle. I actually bought a freezer just for storing nicotine. If you store it unfrozen it's good for about 2 years. But... Studies have been done that show it doesn't get old or bad it just starts losing its strength. Losing a little strength doesn't bother me at all. I will sacrifice a few mg of nicotine strength for peace of mind.

My opinion is the FDA will probably go after nicotine with a strong hand. I doubt we will have access. It won't be banned. You just will see it off the market and only available to those who buy licenses much like cigarette reseller license.

 

[tiyantiyan]

Liquid nicotine doesn't get old. After a few years it will just slowly (over years) lose its strength. It actually takes a few years just to lose 1 or 2 mg of its strength.
If you store it unfrozen it's good for about 2 years.

That's exactly what I do, lock the nic out unfrozen and it's not bad at all after more than 1 years.
It's the safest and easiest way for 1 year's supply (talking about mere 200ml here.)
If I want, I could dilute it further to 50mg or something, but I just find it unnecessary.

My opinion is the FDA will probably go after nicotine with a strong hand.

Wondering about how FDA could eventually do.

Gas is dangerous enough to kill a kid, more dangerous than nic solution. Can FDA ban Gas? No.
Everclear can kill a kid in no time, can FDA ban everclear? No.
Caffeine can do so and FDA can't ban it.
The list is much longer than this, there are tons of chemical that you can buy and FDA can't and will not ban.

We are not talking about drug that FDA can and should ban. This is what has helped millions of people to quit smoking effectively, and it's the most effective method (if not the only really effective one) for people to quit.


So, I really don't imagine FDA bans nic liquid. If it does, it might create its biggest trouble for itself in history.

Maybe it will pose stricter regulations that results in higher but not super high price.
And that the big suppliers like wizard labs should survive very well. (I remember wizardlabs just passed some kind of FDA inspection).

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

I agree. They shouldn't but they could care less what we think or feel. It's already banned in some other countries. You can buy non nicotine eliquid in some countries but nicotine in it is illegal.

It won't be banned. But you will need a license. They will treat it like tobacco. It will be regulated much like other stuff you can't get but people within that industry can. It would be nice if they bypassed liquid nicotine but I seriously doubt they'll leave that out of their regulations.

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

Either way my freezer is stocked and I will keep stocking it. I make juice for my Mom, my husband and my aunt. I need a lot.

I'd rather be well prepared and nothing happen than be ill prepared and be stuck at their mercy with nothing.

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

Wizard labs passed an inspection on their lab. That is not their liquids. It's not the same thing. It will cost a company millions to get their products approved with the FDA. I hope somebody does get liquid nicotine passed through. But... I can guarantee you the FDA will impose strict guidance on it. Like resell to licensed resellers only.

A lot of labs get their facilities approved by the FDA. That's fairly normal. It just means its up to safety standards. No hazards. Etc. it has nothing to do with the actual products.

 

[we2rcool]

The FDA is like the IRS; the FDA can do anything it wants whenever it wants to do it...just ask the sellers of raw milk, raw milk cheese, herbs, etc., that have had their businesses raided at gunpoint; all products/records confiscated; arrested/convicted and fined/incarcerated. And that's what is 'public knowledge' (don't even get us started on what's been done over the decades that's not public).

Since there already is a joint FDA-approved/Big Tobacco USA 'nic extraction facility' (in the works? or already active? I can't remember), the likelihood of "FDA Nic Control" is strong (assured, in our opinion).

'Bottom line for us - do we want "their nic" at "their taxed price" from "their approved sellers" (likely having to give personal data to 'register' to buy it - with likely restrictions on volumes, so one can't resell themselves)? For us the answer is...thanks, but no thanks.

 

[Rickb119]

I'd rather be well prepared and nothing happen than be ill prepared and be stuck at their mercy with nothing.

Me too.....

 

[rufus1138]

i feel like its necessary to point out that hoarding nic and diy stuff could be overall detrimental to the vaping industry as a whole. think about the business model here, say 50% of the vaping crowd hoards up nic and diy supplies, we already know that most b&m's and lots of internet vendors rely on juice sales to keep the doors open, now imagine that some pretty draconian fda regulations get passed, so 50% of the vaping community doesnt care what the prices are they dont buy anyway, now the 50% thats left has to shoulder the burden of keeping things alive at the b&m, lets say 25% of the overall community are just too pressured and in this horrible world, go back to the now cheaper alternative of analogs. now the entire industry has suffered a 75% loss to its customer base. as a result of lost revenue and traffic in general the remaining businesses are forced to sell off to big tobacco, after the first few do this at a pretty stiff loss the b.t. realizes that its useless to buy a dying market share that will capitulate on its own anyway. the rest file bankruptcy and close the doors, now without any impetus to keep it around the b.t. shuts down all vaporizer manufacturing of any kind. at this point the 50% that were hoarding are just waking up from their fog and start looking for a nic base supplier that.........isnt there, analogs are the only way to get a nic fix yet again.

 

[RonJS]

The worst case to happen is FDA poses regulation on Nic sale.

I am less worried about the FDA than the tax & spend gubberment. It seems they are always looking for new opportunities to raise revenue.

While federal taxes on a pack of analogs is around a buck, in my area, with additional state, county and city levies it over $6. These "sin" taxes cost one of my analog using friends over ten bucks a day and he has already pointed out to me that I now pay zero.

I'm thinking it's not if they start taxing nic., but when.

If the taxing bodies determine the tax amount on nic. based on analog taxes, what would be the tax on one liter of 100mg ??

Thousands of $$$ ???

I guess if I now spent only $30 a year for nic. it would not matter that much to me. But I don't.

Ron

 

[Cavediver]

NC Recently passed a $.05 per ml tax on vaping products.
That works out to $25/500ml; that creates a 40%-50% increase in the price of (some) 100mg nic, and it's a 100% increase in the price of (some) 24mg nic solutions.

That's just a state imposed excise tax.

Wait 'till the Feds get involved.

Fortunately they included nicotine as a component of the description, so I believe 0mg liquids will not be taxed. If that's the case, I'd bet someone's going to start selling small bottles of 36mg plain nic, and giving out free 20ml samples of "soda" flavor concentrates (conveniently packaged in a 30ml bottle) with each purchase. It'd probably cost more than it would save, but it'd be a great "Up Yours" message since it would keep them from collecting 70%+ of the tax they're currently banking on


To address the OP, the FDA can most certainly ban or restrict the sale of nic. Comparing it to gasoline is a bit overboard since gas is a fuel and not meant for consumption. Comparing it to high proof grain alcohol is much closer to reality. Are you allowed to distill your own alcohol for consumption? No. Can anyone buy it? Not unless you're over 21 and have the ID to prove it. Is it heavily taxed and regulated? I think we all know the answer to that one.

Aside from recreational products, pesticides, and (potentially) some medical applications, what other uses are there for nicotine? Why must they allow it to remain available to the general public?

Moving on...

IIRC, there are a couple of current posters here who have stored nic for several years, and have reported little or no degradation. Keeping it in the freezer is perfectly safe if you take the proper precautions. If you've got a large freezer, get an old military ammo can and put a padlock on it. Add some big and bold poison labels and you're good to go. If your freezer isn't big enough for an ammo can, find a smaller lock box or a locking, soft-sided money bag.

 

[Gato del Jugo]

Mitch Zeller & the FDA are blood-thirsty for your nic base..


If you don't watch the whole thing, which was recorded on June 11, 2014, at least watch for a minute starting at the 16:36 mark, where he mentions "the power to ban, or restrict ... the allowable levels of compounds, ingredients & substances"..

One-on-One with Mitch Zeller, Director of the FDA Center for Tobacco Products

 

[dshgr]

I live in the Nanny state of Maryland, where they also tax us to death. Maryland just banned the sale of Everclear. I'm waiting for the tax on nicotine liquid and I wouldn't be surprised by an outright ban on liquid over a certain strength. I'm hoarding.

I store my nic base in clearly marked glass bottles in the basement freezer. My husband, son and I all know it is there. I DIY for all 3 of us. I have 5 years of nic stored and I'm thinking about buying another liter or so.

 

[tiyantiyan]

Wow, didn't know NC charges tax already.

What FDA says is to regulate nic for public health. What the news says is, taxing nic generates 2 million dollars!

NC Recently passed a $.05 per ml tax on vaping products.
That works out to $25/500ml; that creates a 40%-50% increase in the price of (some) 100mg nic, and it's a 100% increase in the price of (some) 24mg nic solutions.

That's just a state imposed excise tax.

Wait 'till the Feds get involved.

Fortunately they included nicotine as a component of the description, so I believe 0mg liquids will not be taxed. If that's the case, I'd bet someone's going to start selling small bottles of 36mg plain nic, and giving out free 20ml samples of "soda" flavor concentrates (conveniently packaged in a 30ml bottle) with each purchase. It'd probably cost more than it would save, but it'd be a great "Up Yours" message since it would keep them from collecting 70%+ of the tax they're currently banking on


To address the OP, the FDA can most certainly ban or restrict the sale of nic. Comparing it to gasoline is a bit overboard since gas is a fuel and not meant for consumption. Comparing it to high proof grain alcohol is much closer to reality. Are you allowed to distill your own alcohol for consumption? No. Can anyone buy it? Not unless you're over 21 and have the ID to prove it. Is it heavily taxed and regulated? I think we all know the answer to that one.

Aside from recreational products, pesticides, and (potentially) some medical applications, what other uses are there for nicotine? Why must they allow it to remain available to the general public?

Moving on...

IIRC, there are a couple of current posters here who have stored nic for several years, and have reported little or no degradation. Keeping it in the freezer is perfectly safe if you take the proper precautions. If you've got a large freezer, get an old military ammo can and put a padlock on it. Add some big and bold poison labels and you're good to go. If your freezer isn't big enough for an ammo can, find a smaller lock box or a locking, soft-sided money bag.

 

[crxess]

Here is a little something to consider.
Has nothing to do with Nic and the FDA - yes
But everything to do with Government involvement

Freon R-12 $35 / 30lb. + local taxes
(Cover-up) Dupont's Patent right expire
Oh NO, Ozone is collapsing - Big hole in Ozone........yada, yada
Taxation and regulation of R-12 (hmmm....smells like Tobacco)
R-12 Rises to over $500 Per Pound - Still available but unreal expensive
Upgrades to R134 Expensive
(cover-up) R-134 another <New> Dupont patent


That $30 purchase this year could cost $200-300 next year, especially if the FDA has anything to do with it.

For me, It was/is not hoarding. I have purchased enough Nic and laid out a scale down that even at 4x my schedule will keep the FDA from ever interfering with my life.
If I am successful, I'll help another Vaper with the left overs.

 

[tiyantiyan]

ok, after reading all these, it seems you almost persuaded me to hoard nic

 

[williebb123]

Here is a little something to concider.
Has nothing to do with Nic and the FDA - yes
But everything to do with Government involvement

Freon R-12 $35 / 30lb. + local taxes
(Cover-up) Duponts Patent right expire
Oh NO, Ozone is collapsing - Big hole in Ozone........yada, yada
Taxation and regulation of R-12 (hmmm....smells like Tobacco)
R-12 Rises to over $500 Per Pound - Still available but unreal expensive
Upgrades to R134 Expensive
(cover-up) R-134 another <New> Dupont patent


That $30 purchase this year could cost $200-300 next year, especially if the FDA has anything to do with it.

For me, It was/is not hoarding. I have purchased enough Nic and laid out a scale down that even at 4x my schedule will keep the FDA from ever interfering with my life.
If I am successful, I'll help another Vaper with the left overs.

that seems to be a pattern for the FDA i recently read some stuff about drug companys pretty much getting to sell their products even with complaints and or deaths and just as the patent runs out they issue severe warnings to be put on labels just as the generic brand is to come out how convenient , and yes i feel just fine stocking my freezer with 2700ml of nic but i always want more lol

 

[WillyZee]

What if nic becomes as hard to buy as black market gasoline?

Best to have and not need ... than to need and not be able to find.


Sent via iPhone

 

[Tangaroav]

Regulations, controls, censorship, taxes, laws, bans, warnings, restrictions, penalties, ....etc. It seems that if we do not take actions we will regret it. All indications are that regulations and controls WILL come, probably VERY soon.

I for one am keeping enough nic for at least 5 years of chain vaping. It is a very small investment to assure my freedom to vape at a affordable cost.