Another thought on Nic Hoarding

[Tangaroav]

Depressing but we better get use to it because IMO not too long from now taxes, regulations, bans and exclusion WILL be the norm. I hope I am wrong but I would bet my money on the ANTZ winning.

Vested interest and politicians are almost all for stiff regulations. The majoriy being non-smokin and non-vaping are not against regulations and will agree to whatever does not affect them while the smoking groups think it is only fair that the vaping crowd shares their burden.

We just don't carry the weight to influence the outcome in a much significant way.

If I lived in Washington or Colorado I could relax, take a 'hit' and laugh it out. There is always the ''nicotine hoarding'' thread which is always quite busy.

 

[twgbonehead]

Even if purchasing nic is restricted to licensed resellers I don't see the big deal. I currently buy my nic at 36mg and it costs me less than a dollar to make 10ml.

I would think resellers would still be able to sell 36 mg unflavored nic

I hope folks won't take this the wrong way. I've read through a lot of pieces of the proposed deeming regs, and listened to some of the public comments from the FDA. I do think the tide might be turning a bit, as strong negative reactions to the DPs seem to be having some effect.

However, It seems to me that a lot of folks here just don't understand what is involved. The FDA certainly could limit the maximum nicotine content allowable, has expressed their intent to do so, and is likely to set that value very low (i.e. 6-12 mg).

A nic manufacturer would have to register his product, and get it approved. Applying to register a product will cost around $335,000 by the FDA's estimate. Applying is no guarantee that the application will be approved, yet the costs (which are mostly associated with testing and analysis and legal paperwork) are implicit in creating and submitting an application.

Nic liquid in PG is a separate product than nic liquid in VG, and would need to be registered separately. Each different concentration is also a separate product. Juice vendors who want to create flavored liquids would ALSO have to register each of their products, in each nic concentration, PG/VG mixture, etc. If there is ANYTHING different between 2 bottles of liquid, they are separate products.

The costs of this registration process have to be added to the cost of the product.

If the regulations proceed as currently stated, all juice manufacturers will go out of business. Period. Nothing will be banned, but no vendor could afford the costs and risks associated with registering them.

A major nic manufacturer MIGHT decide to apply for some specific unflavored nic liquid. There is no guarantee it would get approved.

The only products that would really stand a chance in this environment are pre-filled cartridges (in perhaps regular and menthol) from the tobacco companies' e-cig lines. They have the ins with the FDA to make sure their products get approved, and the dollar volume to justify the costs.

Taxation is just the short-term danger. A much more real danger is that 2 years from now e-juice will be unavailable from any source, at any price unless you're into squeezing Blu cartridges.

Gotta go; need to put in an order for another couple of liters......

 

[Rickb119]

Gotta go; need to put in an order for another couple of liters......

I had planned to wait for cooler weather to order my next batch (lifetime supply) of nicotine. Just changed my mind.

"Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get me".

 

[jpasint]

I hope folks won't take this the wrong way. I've read through a lot of pieces of the proposed deeming regs, and listened to some of the public comments from the FDA. I do think the tide might be turning a bit, as strong negative reactions to the DPs seem to be having some effect.

However, It seems to me that a lot of folks here just don't understand what is involved. The FDA certainly could limit the maximum nicotine content allowable, has expressed their intent to do so, and is likely to set that value very low (i.e. 6-12 mg).

A nic manufacturer would have to register his product, and get it approved. Applying to register a product will cost around $335,000 by the FDA's estimate. Applying is no guarantee that the application will be approved, yet the costs (which are mostly associated with testing and analysis and legal paperwork) are implicit in creating and submitting an application.

Nic liquid in PG is a separate product than nic liquid in VG, and would need to be registered separately. Each different concentration is also a separate product. Juice vendors who want to create flavored liquids would ALSO have to register each of their products, in each nic concentration, PG/VG mixture, etc. If there is ANYTHING different between 2 bottles of liquid, they are separate products.

The costs of this registration process have to be added to the cost of the product.

If the regulations proceed as currently stated, all juice manufacturers will go out of business. Period. Nothing will be banned, but no vendor could afford the costs and risks associated with registering them.

A major nic manufacturer MIGHT decide to apply for some specific unflavored nic liquid. There is no guarantee it would get approved.

The only products that would really stand a chance in this environment are pre-filled cartridges (in perhaps regular and menthol) from the tobacco companies' e-cig lines. They have the ins with the FDA to make sure their products get approved, and the dollar volume to justify the costs.

Taxation is just the short-term danger. A much more real danger is that 2 years from now e-juice will be unavailable from any source, at any price unless you're into squeezing Blu cartridges.

Gotta go; need to put in an order for another couple of liters......

Spoken like a true tax paying citizen (assumption).

The last few posts here have had me laughing hard for a few minutes.
Sad part is that most of it's true as truth can be.

Getting reelected and money(helps get reelected) are what is all about.

I am just starting out with mixing my own juice but I bought 2l of 100mg and since I like to vape at 4mg or less, I should be good for a long while provided the nic holds up frozen.

 

[1LastShot]

I remember the scare we all had a few years back....how does this differ? (That's an honest question, not a snarky one for those who don't know me) Is it that some legislation has actually come down the pipes this time?

 

[Tangaroav]

I remember the scare we all had a few years back....how does this differ? (That's an honest question, not a snarky one for those who don't know me) Is it that some legislation has actually come down the pipes this time?

IMO, many factors are against us. It is a bit like supporting internet govt. controls for everyone because of the need to catch the pedophiles.

Now that the tobacco industry in 'on board' with their e-cig divisions it changes the perception of e-cigs in a negative way.

The ANTZ have the 'protect our children' marketing going on that is winning every one including the vaping public. How can you fight against that: protection = something bad = e-cigs are bad.

The 50, 75, 100 and beyond wattage mods already in the market will not help that's for sure. It is becoming an out of control circus act to the eyes of the general public, ( and many of us).

The only answer to the un-initiated are REGULATIONS ! I am afraid a lot of them will be upon us, very soon.

 

[twgbonehead]

I remember the scare we all had a few years back....how does this differ? (That's an honest question, not a snarky one for those who don't know me) Is it that some legislation has actually come down the pipes this time?

Yes. The FDA has published it's proposal for "Deeming Regulations" on e-cigarettes (and other "tobacco" products). The proposal is open for comments at the moment (not for much longer though). Once comments are closed, the FDA will implement these regulations.

The regulations allow for a 2-year window to allow vendors to file paperwork for registration. After that, no products can be sold which are not approved and for which approval has not been filed. The FDA estimates it will get between 20 and 80 applications total for all products covered by the regulations (which includes not just e-cigarettes, but hookahs, cigars and other "tobacco products" as well.)
The anticipated cost of $334,000 per application comes from the FDA itself.

The regulations cover not just e-liquid, but also e-cigarettes and "components of e-cigarettes" (such as heads). And yes, the FDA can regulate items with no tobacco or nicotine in them and already does so with cigarette papers.

There is a lot of info here:
FDA Regulations

 

[Racehorse]

NC Recently passed a $.05 per ml tax on vaping products.

Maybe vendors like Five Pawns can drop their price from $27.50 for 30ml to $26.00.......that will cover the buck-fifty in taxes consumers have to pay.

They can always raise the price of their headgear from $19.50 to $21 and that will be a wash for them, too. (by the way, the caps are sold out......guess a lot of vapers aren't hard luck stories who can't afford $0.05 a ml tax after all.........)


The way I look at it, somebody is gonna make a ton of money off vapers, regardless
Can't help it I"m cynic

 

[Racehorse]

^^^^^^
sales are expected to hit $10 billion by 2017........that's a huge bandwagon to jump on.

I'm not fooling myself thinking that most of the ecig biz is going to be made up of "caring" altruists.......c'mon.

Hustle is part of capitalism....not saying good or bad, just saying when you can turn a $3 bottle of eliquid into $30 there's some well-written marketing going on.......I started out my young life out of college in a madison avenue advertising firm.....I can tell you lots.

 

[regal55]

Buy some nicotine from China suppliers now and build a relationship, it may come in handy.

 

[Tangaroav]

Killer juice, Fasttech, Yaelig and many more are taking a more acceptable profit margin.

 

[dannyv45]

It takes so long for stuff to arrive from japan so if your going to go that route get good at planing ahead.