Any interest in determining nicotine--by DVAP

[DVap]

Hey DVap,

Funny you should experiment with this. Another member has been doing the same thing for a while now. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/smokeless-tobacco/33923-tobacco-e-cig.html

Would be interesting to hear your results, if any.

I read the thread.. I must say that's a twist I'd not considered. Saturate a mini pillow of Snus and use the pillow as the atomizer filler.

My eyeball estimate puts those mini Camel Snus pillows at 700 mg, probably about 1% nicotine, so you'd be shoving 7 mg of nicotine into the atty.

Compare to an 12 mg liquid with a PTB in a 510 cart holding maybe 0.75 mL of liquid and you've got 9 mg of nicotine in the atty.

The two compare well, as long as you're not a high nicotine vaper.

The downside to the Snus pillow would seem to be actually being able to get the nicotine to come out of the Snus in the pillow. It's a much more dense and complex matrix than just polyfiber/e-liquid or PTB/e-liquid.

I'm skeptical that vaping off the Snus pillow allows much available nicotine.

I will say this.. if folks enjoy the Snus, and they're willing to accept the wear and tear on their atty's, I commend them for their creativity. Not everybody is a nicotine fiend after all!

 

[bearscreek]

I'm pretty sure Camel Snus is 6 mg nicotine, and VG and ethyl alcohol seem to work quite a bit better than PG, for what it's worth. I have some Snus juice in my fridge, but it was the Frost, so I really didn't use much of it.

 

[DVap]

I'm pretty sure Camel Snus is 6 mg nicotine, and VG and ethyl alcohol seem to work quite a bit better than PG, for what it's worth. I have some Snus juice in my fridge, but it was the Frost, so I really didn't use much of it.

If it's 6, then I'm pretty happy with my guess of 7.

It's fair to say that for the nicotine fiends among us, Snus isn't a good e-liquid source via soaking. But, for some folks, it makes a fine liquid, nicotine or no.

 

[bearscreek]

Actually, 7 mg was an excellent guess.

 

[kinabaloo]

... I was just surprised to see how well those Chinese folks nailed it.

What a cheek!

Right now, I'm cursing. I had the whole procedure typed out, and I hit the wrong key and sent it all to /dev/null.

You really need to move up to Windows

Seriously though, it's very nice to see a chemist on-board.

I saved this link a few weeks back, waiting for someone who would be able to appreciate the level of discussion regarding the chemistry of extraction of nicotine; looks interesting:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3404

ps: as you mention auto-vaping devices, perhaps you could run this test: To determine if nicotine in PG (no other ingredients) leaves a deposit. I know that PG does not (though VG does decompose, around 1%). Perhaps by oxidising or via other pathways end up a solid / carbonised residue on the heater coil (so obviously a new atomiser would be required for the test).

 

[kinabaloo]

I'm getting the germ of an idea for a couple experiments.

Set up an e-smoking machine that draws the vapor through an impinger with a dilute sulfuric acid solution with a force similar to inhalation to trap any nicotine in the vapor as nicotine sulfate. Set it up for 5 second "puffs", topping off the cart after every 10 puffs. Repeat for 100 puffs. Isolate the nicotine from the impinger and determine ug nicotine/puff.

Or, load up a cart with e-liquid that I've already determined for nicotine. Vape it for awhile, topping off as needed. Determine the nicotine in the liquid remaining in the cart to determine if vaping preferentially pulls off the PG and concentrates the nicotine in the cart. (This being a pet theory of mine that could well be right or wrong).

An interesting alternative theory for the 'missing nicotine'.

People often mention taste variations and I suspected fractional distillation at the coil and chromatographic separation in the metal mesh; the chromatographic separation could take place in the cart filler too; surface chemistry might also play a role in which case choice of filler could be important.

Which reminds me, nickel (the metal foam) often acts as a catalyst (just possibly the NiCr coil alloy too) so these might be accessories to nicotine reactions that also might help explain the missing nicotine?

 

[DVap]

I saved this link a few weeks back, waiting for someone who would be able to appreciate the level of discussion regarding the chemistry of extraction of nicotine; looks interesting:

Yea, I've seen that stuff. Some of those guys know what they're talking about, others are talking out of their lower orifice and I'll be expecting to see their Darwin Award nominations any day now. Not one of them gives more than a passing glance to the risk involved in what they're trying to do.

Ultimately, if someone is willing to do the work, and doesn't care if he might get himself killed (or get someone else killed via leaving a contaminated work area), and can separate the nonsense from the science (and some of the latter procedures require some pretty specialized equipment), starting with a pound of really strong 3% Virginia, he might come away with 10 mL of essentially pure nicotine (and I wonder how he's going to dispose of all the solvents?)

 

[DVap]

An interesting alternative theory for the 'missing nicotine'.

People often mention taste variations and I suspected fractional distillation at the coil and chromatographic separation in the metal mesh; the chromatographic separation could take place in the cart filler too; surface chemistry might also play a role in which case choice of filler could be important.

I can't say I agree or disagree with what's going on at the business end of the atomizer. The design is, in my opinion, a monstrosity. I'd much prefer the NiCr coil to be encased in a low thermal mass ceramic in turn encased in a thin stainless steel casing (much like a cartridge heater unit). Though even at low thermal mass, I'm sure this would add appreciably to the warm-up time.

Which reminds me, nickel (the metal foam) often acts as a catalyst (just possibly the NiCr coil alloy too) so these might be accessories to nicotine reactions that also might help explain the missing nicotine?

Possibly, I've really never worked professionally with catalysts and I'm so rusty with reaction chemistry that I'd have to relearn a good bit of it, so I'd best not speculate.

Sorry I have more "I dunno's" than answers!

 

[kinabaloo]

I can't say I agree or disagree with what's going on at the business end of the atomizer. The design is, in my opinion, a monstrosity. I'd much prefer the NiCr coil to be encased in a low thermal mass ceramic in turn encased in a thin stainless steel casing (much like a cartridge heater unit). Though even at low thermal mass, I'm sure this would add appreciably to the warm-up time.



Possibly, I've really never worked professionally with catalysts and I'm so rusty with reaction chemistry that I'd have to relearn a good bit of it, so I'd best not speculate.

Sorry I have more "I dunno's" than answers!

Other than acting as a potential catalyst, NiCr is pretty much inert so the present design is fine (especially as current battery power limits the us in heat-up time as you say.

If you do get an auto-vaper running, would be really nice to now if nicotine does degrade at all (it could also be degrading and still expelled as vapors but I have a suspicion about this.

pa: An alternative experiment would be to try and collect the condensed vapor and try to see if all the nicotine is accounted for.

 

[kinabaloo]

Any chance that the juice understrength was down though oxidation having been opened for a while (though i know that 22% is a huge difference)?

 

[DVap]

An alternative experiment would be to try and collect the condensed vapor and try to see if all the nicotine is accounted for.

I suppose I could do something like:

1. Weigh an empty cart and atomizer on a 5 place balance.
2. Add predetermined liquid to the cart.
3. Reweigh to determine mass of liquid in the cart.
4. Autovape into a distilled water impinger.
5. Weight the cart and atomizer to determine the mass vaped.
6. Redetermine nicotine in the cart.
7. Determine nicotine in the impinger.

So if, for example, I added 0.7 grams of liquid and autovaped it, and the post vape weight was down by 0.3 grams, then I could assume I autovaped 0.3 grams of liquid. If the vapor carried nicotine proportional to it's level in the liquid, I would expect to find a given amount in the impinger, and if it wasn't in the impinger, I would expect to find the liquid remaining in the cart to be enhanced in nicotine. I'd probably need to drop my acid titrant down to 0.01N and revalidate a series of variables including the possibility that the indicator itself might start to affect the acid/base system at such a low base concentration.

Gawd.. that last paragraph was so geeky, even my eyes are glazing over!

 

[DVap]

Any chance that the juice understrength was down though oxidation having been opened for a while (though i know that 22% is a huge difference)?

The juice was very new. If oxidation was a problem on my end, then the shelf life of this stuff would be terribly short.

 

[kinabaloo]

I suppose I could do something like:

1. Weigh an empty cart and atomizer on a 5 place balance.
2. Add predetermined liquid to the cart.
3. Reweigh to determine mass of liquid in the cart.
4. Autovape into a distilled water impinger.
5. Weight the cart and atomizer to determine the mass vaped.
6. Redetermine nicotine in the cart.
7. Determine nicotine in the impinger.

So if, for example, I added 0.7 grams of liquid and autovaped it, and the post vape weight was down by 0.3 grams, then I could assume I autovaped 0.3 grams of liquid. If the vapor carried nicotine proportional to it's level in the liquid, I would expect to find a given amount in the impinger, and if it wasn't in the impinger, I would expect to find the liquid remaining in the cart to be enhanced in nicotine. I'd probably need to drop my acid titrant down to 0.01N and revalidate a series of variables including the possibility that the indicator itself might start to affect the acid/base system at such a low base concentration.

Gawd.. that last paragraph was so geeky, even my eyes are glazing over!

Hmm, simly seeing of the atomiser gets a noticeable deposit build up will be easier. This happens with the decomp of Vg although the exact pathway is unclear (from acrolein to charred solid) - except the carring of course. I would think that if nicotine is degrading at all that there would be a solid sign of this - and the proportion lost much higher than the 1% degradation of VG.

 

[kinabaloo]

The juice was very new. If oxidation was a problem on my end, then the shelf life of this stuff would be terribly short.

I thought so; just to eliminate that possibility. Unless the lid was off, couldn't possibly make such a difference.

I mention the 22 % as wondered if a deliberate dilution could be faintly inferred by that figure. It's 22.2% if take average actual as 28mg. I am guessing that the highest figure you found was most representative, add a little underreoprting (a tiny bit of oxidation say) and the dilution was probably 20% 'filler': 4 parts 36mg juice to 1 part PG (or whatever). The resultant ~26mg still being above the next-down common concentration, 24mg.

I think such antics are unlikely to be repeated any time soon ...

(never occured to me before that something like this might be part of the explanation for the missing nicotine!)

 

[Vaporer]

DVap,

Great thread. Keep it going.
I have a question since the discussion is extraction.
I always liked certain flavors of pipe tobacco....most can't be found in e liquids.
What solvent would be the best to extract the flavoring and not get all the bad crap added. I don't mind if some nic comes with the flavor.
I realize this may be an impossible question since diff flavors may require diff solvents, but there surely is 1 or 2 that would get it or some of it to add to flavoress PG. I have some in 151 vodka soaking now.

Thanks again for all the info! Very interersting read.

 

[DVap]

kinabaloo, you sure ask the tough questions!

Vaporer, you're limited to solvents that aren't by themselves toxic.

Water, ethanol, PG, and VG come to mind.

I suspect that any solvent that will extract the aroma and flavor, will probably also extract a measure of the bad crap as well.

I'll pull a solvent mix out of thin air.. 10% ethanol, 30% VG, 60% PG. (also happens to be a decent vaping base). Put maybe a gram of the pipe tobacco in 10 mL of the vaping base, and gently swirl it for a couple minutes. Drain off the liquid (filter it somehow if you can). See how it vapes, and up/down adjust the amount of pipe tobacco from there.

 

[kinabaloo]

I guess an alternative explanation is that the first juice tested was actually far higher in concentration than stated. That this was the case, and your measurements were wrong, and by just the right amount to make that sample look correct, would be stretching it.

If this holds with a new bottle, perhaps sending an unopened bottle to an independent lab would be a good move.

The actual reading is a bit too high for it to a mislabelled 24mg juice.

ps: JC doesn't seem to sell 36mg.

 

[Vaporer]

DVap,

I kinda figured that would be the answer.
I have one in all but VG. I have them in seperatly except the vodka. That ratio is off lol
Thought I'd see if a single one got what I wanted. The less solvents the less chance of the bad crap.
Thanks for confirming what I suspected.

 

[DVap]

I guess an alternative explanation is that the first juice tested was actually far higher in concentration than stated. That this was the case, and your measurements were wrong, and by just the right amount to make that sample look correct, would be stretching it.

If this holds with a new bottle, perhaps sending an unopened bottle to an independent lab would be a good move.

It's quite a stretch. Last time I checked 1 millimole of monoprotic acid neutralizes 1 millimole of monohydroxy base. I don't think they changed the rules on that when I wasn't looking.

I always have the option of analyzing any of this on a high resolution mass spectrometer with the kind of trace sensitivity that boggles the mind. Trouble is that we charge clients sometimes as much as $1300 for an hour long analysis. If I'm found using these things as my personal toys, I'll have a bit of explaining to do. Plus, I still don't have standard reference materials for nicotine, and though suppliers of pure nicotine/nicotine standards would send the stuff to me at the laboratory without question, I would again, have some explaining to do since none of what we do involves nicotine.

Overall, I don't know if I'll actually do half the testing I dream up here, though trying to account for all the nicotine in an auto-vaped cart really sounds interesting about now. Very often, an experiment looks good on paper, but just doesn't work too well in practice, so validation is important, otherwise, the data (and therefore the conclusion) is very likely crap.

 

[DVap]

Just wondering, has anybody decided to gather the material to do this themselves? Either the full or compact procedure?