you are peculiar. just sayin'.....
go play in your "niche" please. or i shall be forced to bite you. buh bye now.
go play in your "niche" please. or i shall be forced to bite you. buh bye now.
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Anyone else feel like Mt BakerVapor is just so- so?
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I'm not sure I would use the word "elitist." "Needlessly arrogant," might be better, or perhaps simply, "Boorishly naive."
There's no doubt that the vendors in question intentionally occupy different price points, but to say that the newborn e-juice market bears any resemblance to the thousand-year-old restaurant industry strikes me as rather presumptuous. There is no obvious difference in the quality of different vendors' e-juice ingredients; the ingredients are dirt cheap across the board. Hell, 90% of the ingredients are flat-out identical. And there is no measurable difference in the quality of the recipes, or in the amount/quality of labor involved to mix them.
I guess there's a measurable difference in the quality of different vendors' packaging, but that kinda speaks to my point here:
The only demonstrable and meaningful difference between expensive juices and cheap ones is their price. That's in stark contrast to your restaurant examples, wherein the vast differences in food quality, labor, skill and attention to detail are self-evident. In each restaurant, the customer has a clear understanding of why he's paying more or less. In the e-juice market, the reasoning behind each vendor's prices is entirely opaque to the consumer.
None of the above is to say that buying a more expensive juice is foolish. Whatever keeps you vaping, and thus keeps you from smoking, is good in my book. And almost all e-juice is cheap in comparison with cigarettes. But to insist that somehow you're a cut above the hoi polloi -- that your taste is more refined -- just because you're paying an extra $10-15 per ounce of e-juice seems gratuitously (nigh desperately) pompous to me.
Tastes vary a lot in this context -- way way way more than food tastes typically vary. Don't confuse subjectivity for refinement.
The lady said GOOD DAY SIR!
In all seriousness though, yes there are differences in companies, some people prefer to pay extra for a juice they feel is higher quality, even if it is not always true. Every company has it's strengths and weaknesses. Want that high end, highly sought after juice? Prepare to wait weeks to get it. The great thing about MBV is they make a decent quality juice for a very affordable price and on top of it they have stellar customer service, place an order and it will be shipped the next day
Personally I DIY all my juice now, I have tried most all of the juice vendors, some I liked, some I didn't but that is the way of all things with people's taste. Just because you don't care for juice from a vendor doesn't mean you should make threads talking about how sub par they are for your tastes. Many people love them, and if they are not for you just move on, no need to bash them or the people who enjoy them.
(Not directing this at you Kropotkin, just the thread in general)
i like your post, fulg. i liken the situation to that in the world of coffee. it's all about packaging, promotion, image and marketing. starbucks to me taste terrible, but some people i think feel that they "have" to like it because it's expensive and trendy. ever walked into an upscale coffee shop where a cup cost $4 and up? the haughty pretentiousness practically radiates from the door as you walk in. and yes, maybe i am a reverse snob. guilty as charged. but i have pretty much had it up to here with socially superior people. they all poop and pee just like the rest of us. of course, i'm sure they use designer toilet paper.
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In the first place, this just isn't true. Some venders use organic ingredients, some don't. Some extract their own flavorings, some don't. A person can acquire ingredients from a huge variety of sources, or make their own. They couldn't possibly be identical, even if they tried.
To some, the differences in eliquid are "self-evident." If this wasn't the case, people would all buy from the same place, wouldn't they?
If a person can genuinely taste a difference between Vender A and Vender B - or prefers glass bottles, for that matter - how on earth is it "pompous" to say so?
Granted, if somebody does claim to be "a cut above" simply because they've spent more money, then sure, that's obnoxious. And I certainly agree that it's possible to be overly precious about vaping in general. What strikes me as odd is the fact that recognizing differences, or admitting to a preference, apparently strikes people as "pompous" the minute cost is involved.
Why is that?
Sociologically speaking, I think this is a very American phenomenon, and probably has something to do with our bizarre relationship to class and money - but that's just me. I tend to think of things like this in sociological terms, and am always amazed at how emotionally charged these subjects become.
Hold on. You haven't ordered from MBV, but you're ok providing an opinion on the quality?
I smell a troll.
MBV is definitely NOT trying to look elitist. I order, get a plastic bottle of juice... There's no shredded confetti, no wax sealed tube, no playing card, and no colored glass bottles. Where is the elitism? You buy juice in a bottle... there's no markup for all of the frills. This is true, there is a niche, so why does MBV have threads with people jumping on all of the time? You like it, buy it, you don't move on.
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so you are saying we
? i am in agreement about lots of what you said, except "To some, the differences in eliquid are "self-evident." If this wasn't the case, people would all buy from the same place, wouldn't they?"
i still maintain that a lot of people get a self-satisfied, superior feeling from purchasing ANY product from a boutique/designer/expensive shop....even if they know they paid too much. i know i have....i just don't like to make a habit of it. but it's fun to pretend to be a "have" instead of a "have not" on occasion.
sometimes, even at the grocery store checkout, i feel i am being judged for my purchases. a lady in front of me may have all high end, brand name items....and will look in disdain at my store brands. truth be known, it's probably the same stuff in different packaging. but it makes her feel good about herself. so yay.
^ I said exactly the opposite, lisancentralix: I said that MBV is trying to look unpretentious and affordable. That's exactly my point. They're not trying to compete with Five Pawns, and are aiming to appeal to a very different demographic.
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But I guess that's what happens when consumer capitalism rules the world and dominates our entire lives: you are what you spend, and you feel that you should spend more than you have . . . I myself have never given a thought to how other grocery shoppers feel about my stuff, and never look down on anybody's shopping cart unless they weigh 874 pounds and the cart is stuffed with cheesecake and Pringles, but I guess I'm peculiar like that.
Edited to add:
Do really think people think this way? What a sad idea!Kelli said:
But I guess that's what happens when consumer capitalism rules the world and dominates our entire lives: you are what you spend, and you feel that you should spend more than you have . . . I myself have never given a thought to how other grocery shoppers feel about my stuff, and never look down on anybody's shopping cart unless they weigh 874 pounds and the cart is stuffed with cheesecake and Pringles, but I guess I'm peculiar like that.
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^ I said exactly the opposite, lisancentralix: I said that MBV is trying to look unpretentious and affordable. That's exactly my point. They're not trying to compete with Five Pawns, and are aiming to appeal to a very different demographic.
I misread and edited LOL Sorry for the misquote!
~90% of every e-juice is comprised of PG and VG (and nicotine). That is universal.
Everything else may or may not significantly alter the cost of the final product. Even if high-end flavorings cost 10 times more than generic flavorings, given the relevant quantities it's hard to imagine that the difference would move the needle too terribly much. In the case of naturally extracted tobaccos, sure, I can see the argument. In the case of everything else -- "organic flavorings" and so on? As things currently stand, that's little more than vague marketer-speak.
And in some cases, it's worth mentioning that the prices are higher simply because the business is a labor-of-love, one-man-operation type of deal. You pay extra in that instance not necessarily because the juices are of higher quality, but because the labor isn't efficient, and/or because the hobbyist business owner doesn't care how much he sells. Remember it's a young industry with very few established standards.
Name one difference that doesn't include the phrase, "more expensive ingredients," or, "tastes better." The relevance of the former criterion is unknowable, and the latter phrase is pure subjectivity. And again, subjectivity is fine, but it's irrelevant for the purpose of this conversation, in which you've argued that MBV is akin to Wendy's, and [insert high-end juice maker here] is akin to a Michelin-starred restaurant.
I can be forgiven for inferring a supercilious tone from your analogy, though I am happy to apologize for misinterpreting your intent. The funny thing is that I actually sorta agree with half of your analogy; it's obvious that MBV both intentionally and successfully occupies a broader market segment -- though I'd probably compare MBV to a grocery store, complete with a cheap hot-food counter, rather than a fast-food restaurant. What isn't obvious is that a hat-picked higher-priced juice vendor deserves to be compared with the gold standard in fine dining; it isn't obvious that such a vendor provides a higher quality product or better customer service. Hell, it's not even always true that more expensive vendors provide nicer bottles.
Right, it's a matter of attitude. My own personal favorite juices, currently, are all 2-3 times more expensive than MBV's. But I am slowly exploring the MBV lineup because I've come to the conclusion that vaping tastes are so subjective (and that I am so picky), and that vapor prices are thus so arbitrary, that you're better off exploring flavor profiles at a cheaper vendor with a wealth of customizations on offer than you are simply trusting in the higher end vendors to deliver "high quality" juices.
My only issue with your position is that you assert a clear difference in juice quality based on price, where I perceive no such clear difference. If we were discussing, say, ecig hardware, I'd probably agree with you. In some cases, perhaps there is a clear difference between expensive and less expensive juice vendors, but there certainly isn't across the board. More to the point, I believe it can be harmful to the impressionable newbie to assert that higher priced juices are of better quality by definition, because chances are he's gonna hate most of the juices he tries, no matter what they cost.
I hope this isn't true but it is definitely a possibility. I am hoping the CLS I ordered will be worth the price.
It is.
Nicoticket is great juice.
Let me know how you like it.
^ I said exactly the opposite, lisancentralix: I said that MBV is trying to look unpretentious and affordable. That's exactly my point. They're not trying to compete with Five Pawns, and are aiming to appeal to a very different demographic.
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Do really think people think this way? What a sad idea!
why yes......yes i do. i live amongst them. maybe you don't. i do. there is a whole class of people who think the rest of us are beneath them. and it is sad, for sure.
And my only issue with your position is the bizarre assumption that if you don't happen to perceive something, then it couldn't possibly exist!Fulgurant said:
I mean, really: How "boorishly naive" and "needlessly arrogant" is that?
And my only issue with your position is the bizarre assumption that if you don't happen to perceive something, then it couldn't possibly exist!
I mean, really: How "boorishly naive" and "needlessly arrogant" is that?
To require evidence before accepting a claim is only rational. To assert that higher prices constitute evidence of higher quality is naive.
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Kelli
I drink Folgers at home. I drink Cumberland Farms coffee when I'm out for 99¢
Because I like it.
When I'm $$ ahead I go to the roaster and get a lb. of Jamaican Blue Mountain for $40/lb
Not to see who else can afford it but because it's the best in the world and gives me mouthgasms.
I couldn't give a .... what other people drink. It will never have any effect on my purchasing decisions.
I don't care what other people vape and nobody's pretensions are going to effect my purchasing.
I vape my 5¢/ml DIY from my Provari and wipe my ... with budget TP.
You ever read Adbusters? I think you might like it. https://www.adbusters.org/
I've been out of High School for over 30 years and didn't care what anyone else thought then.
I wear t-shirts, flannel, Carharrts and mocassins or hiking boots.
My boots cost more than most suits' shoes and my mocs cost more than some high end Nikes.
I do my thing my way because it works for me.
.... em if they can't take a joke.
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This thread is getting ridiculous.
1. If you've only been vaping a few months, chances are, your taste is going to change. MBV makes juices that 95% of the time "taste" like what they say it will taste like, unless your gear is totally whacked and you have your vv/wv/ohm all screwed up. You can afford to dump the juice and re-adjust your device. As your taste buds come back, you might just decide you want something different. But as a new vaper, these flavors will generally taste what they claim to taste like.
2. We all smoked different brands of cigarettes, why wouldn't certain vendors appeal to us more individually?
3. Who gives a flip if I pay .05 per ml or $20 per ml? If it keeps me from going back to analogs, isn't that the whole point?
4. There is more than one brand of flavor extract. That's why "blueberry" from vendor "A" tastes different from "B", "C", etc., etc. Just off the top of my head, flavor concentrate brands: FlavourArt, LorAnn, Capella, Hangsen, Tasty Puff, Dekang.......they are NOT all the same. Go to the DIY thread. And this doesn't take into consideration any added sweetener, lemon juice, vinegar, or menthol.
5. PG/VG and nic mg ALL effect the flavor, more of one will make a flavor "Pop", less will mute it. Flavor shots can enhance or kill the taste.
6. If flavor wasn't that important, we'd all be DIY-ing PG/VG and nic juice, NO FLAVORS, at about .03 per ml.
"Elitists" is a BS term. "Whatever floats your boat". It's asinine that people will get into pissing matches over an individual person's taste, what they're willing to spend, and what vendor they choose to purchase from.
1. If you've only been vaping a few months, chances are, your taste is going to change. MBV makes juices that 95% of the time "taste" like what they say it will taste like, unless your gear is totally whacked and you have your vv/wv/ohm all screwed up. You can afford to dump the juice and re-adjust your device. As your taste buds come back, you might just decide you want something different. But as a new vaper, these flavors will generally taste what they claim to taste like.
2. We all smoked different brands of cigarettes, why wouldn't certain vendors appeal to us more individually?
3. Who gives a flip if I pay .05 per ml or $20 per ml? If it keeps me from going back to analogs, isn't that the whole point?
4. There is more than one brand of flavor extract. That's why "blueberry" from vendor "A" tastes different from "B", "C", etc., etc. Just off the top of my head, flavor concentrate brands: FlavourArt, LorAnn, Capella, Hangsen, Tasty Puff, Dekang.......they are NOT all the same. Go to the DIY thread. And this doesn't take into consideration any added sweetener, lemon juice, vinegar, or menthol.
5. PG/VG and nic mg ALL effect the flavor, more of one will make a flavor "Pop", less will mute it. Flavor shots can enhance or kill the taste.
6. If flavor wasn't that important, we'd all be DIY-ing PG/VG and nic juice, NO FLAVORS, at about .03 per ml.
"Elitists" is a BS term. "Whatever floats your boat". It's asinine that people will get into pissing matches over an individual person's taste, what they're willing to spend, and what vendor they choose to purchase from.
Juice price just like most other consumer products, is relative. Some people want to have a Lexus, but at the end of the day it's just a Toyota in a fancy glass bottle. Some people buy Johnnie Walker Blue Label at $200 a bottle when there are MUCH BETTER Scotches for half the price. Some people like to pay $40 for a gourmet burger, when you can get a $7 burger in Texas that is easily better.
Some of it is status symbol, some of it is income level, some of it preference, and some of it is shtick. We live in a consumer-driven society so I don't understand why people can't apply what is apparent in other products to e-juice. People want what they want, and if they think they are one-upping me then that's just part of life in 2013.
If I want some Virgin Vapor juice and think it's better than ECBlend, then good for me. Maybe I know better, maybe I don't. I just don't understand people getting upset because someone doesn't care for your preference in juice or juice vendors. Taste is extremely subjective, and consumerism becomes an identity of individuals in our society.
Some of it is status symbol, some of it is income level, some of it preference, and some of it is shtick. We live in a consumer-driven society so I don't understand why people can't apply what is apparent in other products to e-juice. People want what they want, and if they think they are one-upping me then that's just part of life in 2013.
If I want some Virgin Vapor juice and think it's better than ECBlend, then good for me. Maybe I know better, maybe I don't. I just don't understand people getting upset because someone doesn't care for your preference in juice or juice vendors. Taste is extremely subjective, and consumerism becomes an identity of individuals in our society.
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