Anyone REALLy think that ecigs aren't going to be banned??

[zoiDman]

I guess my confusion lies in not understanding exactly what the problem here is???? Do any of these anti-e-cig people have an actual problem with the PV device itself? Or is it just the nicotine ?

I don't think it has anything to do with either. I think it has to do with Profits and Taxes.

If you are on the Board of a Major Cigarette company, are you going to let your customers switch to something you can't make a profit on? I don't think so. That’s considered Un-American for Big Business.

And if you are the Government, are you going to pass up an opportunity to tax the hell out of something that people have a hard time stopping? You don't even have to answer that one!

Where can you buy cigarettes legally in the USA where it isn’t taxed? Can you sell liquor in the USA with out giving the government it’s fair share?

E-Cigs are hear to stay? Of course they are.

But for how long will the masses be legally able to buy e-juice without a Tax on it? And how long before ALL e-Juice sold in America is made under the control of RJ Reynolds, Philip Morris and or Segrems?

 

[jeanblackwood]

I don't see how e-cigs could ever be banned. Even if they stopped shipping from China, a lot of vapers would just make PVs. Currently the only thing I can't make myself is the atty, and if I had to, I'd figure out how to make that, too. Even vapers who aren't particularly handy might pick up a few electrician skills. Necessity is the mother of invention, and PVs are really easy to make. So they really can't touch our PVs. What they can do is block the nicquid. That's what this is all about, the nicotine.

Juice in multiple flavours can be made just from stuff found at the local grocery store. PVs can be made from stuff lying around your house or ordered online from Radio Shack (if you don't have an electronics supply store convenient to you). Finally, nicotine patches can deliver the nic while PVs deliver the "smoke" and throat hit can come from peppermint/menthol or cinnamon. There is absolutely no reason to ever go back to analogs.

TBL36

You are so right and I keep worrying that if they ban e-cigs I would have to go back to cigarettes . I really don't , just have to be creative . THANKS !!!

 

[thinblueline36]

I really don't , just have to be creative . THANKS !!!

No prob.

I've been reading some interesting threads on the ecf about soaking snus in PG to make nicquid. I don't think anybody's run it through a proper analysis to guage just how much nic is leached out, but folks are reporting good TH and at least the belief that they're getting their nicfix. So that means the gov can't take our nicquid away either.

Muahahahah!

Big tobacco can...well, just read the last line in my bragging-rights box.

TBL36

 

[Darrigaaz]

Where can you buy cigarettes legally in the USA where it isn’t taxed? Can you sell liquor in the USA with out giving the government it’s fair share?

Indian reservations.

 

[zoiDman]

Indian reservations.

Indian reservation are not part of the U.S.A.

 

[quasimod]

/.../ Finally, nicotine patches can deliver the nic while PVs deliver the "smoke" and throat hit /.../

That is not acceptable to me. I have no interest in wearing a patch and vaping flavored VG/PG with zero nic. If my legal options are reduced to such an offensively humiliating degree, then in my opinion, vaping will have successfully been banned.

 

[cybercop]

Indian reservations.

I was getting my cigs from an Indian reservation. First UPS and FedEx pulled the plug on shipping them, now I understand that it is illegal for the USPS to ship from these locations (At least here in NY). I guess one could still physically go to the reservation and purchase them; but I don't worry about that anymore--I vape!
At least...for now, until

 

[Captu4ik]

Indian reservation are not part of the U.S.A.

I don't really think that is an accurate explanation. More like Indian Reservations are not subject to the taxation that the rest of the US is ...

 

[Wafflestomper]

When E-cigs are banned. That is the day I become a criminal.

Amazing how they can make criminals out of normally law abiding citizens.

Life, Quasi-Liberty, and the pursuit of mediocrity.

 

[mphsjeep]

Here is my two cents......any political pressure to ban is coming from lobbiest, and the FDA is the tool being pushed hardest. Second effort is through a state by state ban "until the FDA can approve/disapprove". Its not the FDA itself that is fronting this attack. Any ban rhetoric that includes "the same chemical as antifreeze" is coming from big tobacco. They cant come right out and say "dont do this its bad for you", so they need to function more covert. New York is their test ground, here is the video of the bill being passed:
http://www.blucigforum.com/news-art...s-f9/e-cig-sales-banned-in-new-york-t1402.htm
One bill did pass but is now jammed up........so what does this mean to us?
Not much right now. I agree there is not going to be a total ban and as stated by others here. Enforcement would be impossible and not a priority. Nicotine is the only element that could be banned and only because it is not "properly regulated" in the ecig community(according to the pro-banners). Our gear is safe...hell im building a Nicostick with $10 worth of stuff I could get a Radioshack. Side note, big tobacco is working on their own ecigs!!! So ultimately this is a play to control the market.
I think the stock up for the end of the world approch is extreme....reminds me of the Y2K scare or the "everybody needs a fallout basement because the nukes are coming" time.

I could go on and on but for the sake of time........Even if these bans did start to take hold in a few states we will just take care of eachother. If you are reading this a year from now, live in NY and are under a ban, and cant get stuff......PM me and we will have whatever you need sent to me and I will send it to you...........vape happy!!!!

 

[mphsjeep]

Here is my two cents......any political pressure to ban is coming from lobbiest, and the FDA is the tool being pushed hardest. Second effort is through a state by state ban "until the FDA can approve/disapprove". Its not the FDA itself that is fronting this attack. Any ban rhetoric that includes "the same chemical as antifreeze" is coming from big tobacco. They cant come right out and say "dont do this its bad for you", so they need to function more covert. New York is their test ground, here is the video of the bill being passed:
E-cig sales banned in New York!!!!!
One bill did pass but is now jammed up........so what does this mean to us?
Not much right now. I agree there is not going to be a total ban and as stated by others here. Enforcement would be impossible and not a priority. Nicotine is the only element that could be banned and only because it is not "properly regulated" in the ecig community(according to the pro-banners). Our gear is safe...hell im building a Nicostick with $10 worth of stuff I could get a Radioshack. Side note, big tobacco is working on their own ecigs!!! So ultimately this is a play to control the market.
I think the stock up for the end of the world approch is extreme....reminds me of the Y2K scare or the "everybody needs a fallout basement because the nukes are coming" time.

I could go on and on but for the sake of time........Even if these bans did start to take hold in a few states we will just take care of eachother. If you are reading this a year from now, live in NY and are under a ban, and cant get stuff......PM me and we will have whatever you need sent to me and I will send it to you...........vape happy!!!!

 

[Mac]

Margaret Hamberg is a satanist.

 

[ChipCurtis]

I was getting my cigs from an Indian reservation. First UPS and FedEx pulled the plug on shipping them, now I understand that it is illegal for the USPS to ship from these locations (At least here in NY). I guess one could still physically go to the reservation and purchase them;

I don't know if this is state-by-state or federal law, but where I live (Mass.) it is not legal to purchase tax-free cigarettes from a reservation if you are not a native american who lives on the reservation. I think the same law applies in N.Y. state.

I know this because I used to purchase cigs from Seneca Nation (upstate N.Y.) by internet, and a few years after these purchases, Mass.gov came after me for the taxes, threatening to garnish them from my wages if I did not pay up. They got this info by illegally (according to treaty agreements) raiding the Seneca's computer records and then sending tax bills to everyone on that list who lives in Mass. Your state can probably do the same, or soon will.

Of course I am not a bit surprised that yet another Treaty with Native Americans has been broken when it comes to the almighty dollar. Great going U.S. gov's!

 

[ChipCurtis]

E-cigs are definitely here to stay. By the time any state or federal bans happen (if they do), the country will have already become so flooded with product that the device will be too ubiquitous to stamp out.

Look at it this way: All the parts and material that the average vaper will need for a lifetime of continued vaping (meaning the remaining years of their lives) will amount to only a very small amount of kit (per person) compared to the amount of kit that has already penetrated the country (proportionally, per person). It's not like every vaper has to have a huge collection of every type of PV on the market, nor would most of them even want to.

The smart resellers and distributors WILL stock up during this 'window of opportunity' period -- the rest of us don't really have to. And most of these laws do not say it's illegal to buy e-cigs; only to sell them. They're really after the resellers continuing to buy large shipments from China.

 

[DaveP]

IMO, the only question that needs to be answered by government is "Are E-cigs safer than cigarettes?" If a cigarette is not safe and is still sold, then E-cigs fall into a category where banning them is not logical.

I agree that we are seeing the pressure of big tobacco and big pharma coming into play. We may have to prove our age one day to order E-cig products online, but that's not necessarily a problem, just an annoyance.

Kids can purchase online only if they have access to a credit card and are willing to chance that their parents will intercept the package. If we are talking about a third party purchase the way a lot of high school kids obtained beer in the old days, then the argument doesn't hold water. Kids can get their older friends to buy tobacco products for them. You can't ban E-cigs on that premise.

 

[0smitty]

IMO, the only question that needs to be answered by government is "Are E-cigs safer than cigarettes?" If a cigarette is not safe and is still sold, then E-cigs fall into a category where banning them is not logical.

I agree that we are seeing the pressure of big tobacco and big pharma coming into play. We may have to prove our age one day to order E-cig products online, but that's not necessarily a problem, just an annoyance.

Kids can purchase online only if they have access to a credit card and are willing to chance that their parents will intercept the package. If we are talking about a third party purchase the way a lot of high school kids obtained beer in the old days, then the argument doesn't hold water. Kids can get their older friends to buy tobacco products for them. You can't ban E-cigs on that premise.

While I *completely agree* with this, and many other people's statements on this subject, there's only one problem here: a great percentage of our laws have absolutely nothing to do with morals, ethics, premises, etc. In our great Land of Opportunity, most everything that occurs on a legislative level all boils down to one thing: money.

The way I see it, the facts are as plain-as-day as it gets...E-cigs are revolutionary in every single way. They save the lives of those of us that use them, save our money (unless of course we fall into the "I want new cool vaping toys" habit that I have)...And even then, we're stimulating the economy because the money we're spending on e-cigs is (mostly) going to the mom-and-pop distributors and juice-makers, who in turn use that money to support/expand business and pay their own bills.

Regardless of all this, we have to face one simple fact: vaping costs Big Pharma, Big Tobacco, and the U.S. Government a LOT of money. I got bored one day, and did the math: Let's say I smoke a pack a day at $5.00...That's $150 a month I spend on smokes, or $1800 a year. Now, let's assume, just for poo's and giggles, that $2 of each pack of smokes goes to Big Gov....That means that in addition to whatever other taxes Big Gov nails me on (sales tax, property tax, etc), I'm giving them $720 a year. Now multiply that by just 100,000 smokers...That's 72,000,000 (72 Million) a year that Big Gov stands to lose if E-cigs ever make the big-time. Now, apply that figure to the actual number of smokers and use the actual taxation amounts...Interesting, huh?

But that's not where it ends. I've been reading a lot of these posts, lurking around for a bit, and I've noticed that a lot of people see Big Pharma's main interest being in that their own stop-smoking products would be jeopardized, however that isn't the case: Big Pharma wants us to keep smoking.Let's take NRT's completely out of the picture for the sake of argument and analysis.

As smokers, we all know about the diseases associated with smoking: lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema, right? Well, these diseases are chronic, meaning a life-long stream of income for the drug companies that make their money from selling pills that stave them off. Once we have the disease (thanks to smoking), they have us in their clutches, and we become their slaves until our dying day, paying Big Pharma to keep us alive for however many more seconds. Here's a thought: anyone here remember the last disease that was "cured"...? It was polio. The last thing Big Pharma would want is for people to quit smoking and quit giving them money in the process.

Then you have to look at the business that is doctor's visits, referrals, etc. The healthcare system's all about money. You can't just ask a doc to tell you what's wrong or how to fix it: you gotta pay 'em. Not only that, but they want you to keep coming back to pay 'em. And they want you to pay their friends (drug companies, other "specialists" via referrals), too.

OK, since I've been typing for a bit, letting my mind unravel in ways that I'm sure all of you have already thought, it's time to close this one up...

Here's the skinny of it: If e-cigs ever make it huge, there are a LOT of people that stand to lose a LOT of cash, and these people are in a HUGE position of power and influence. So long as the e-cig is/was under the radar, no biggie...But once they pick up some steam and the powers that be realize the potential impact, yeah...They would be stupid if they just left e-cigs alone. We all know that a large portion of those laws that are supposedly "for our protection and safety" are nothing more than BS excuses designed to make sure that everyone who's supposed to gets their cut.

Do I wanna see e-cigs get banned? NO. I *LOVE* vaping. I love vaping soooo much, it has saved my life, made my bench go up, made me smell better, totally killed my desire for tobacco in any way, shape, or form...

But will they get banned?? Maybe not now, but I'm almost positive they will sooner than later. Just a matter of following the money.

That's just my .02.

 

[MrGreen]

They will Only be able to ban e-liquid with nicotine. e-cigs themselves will still be legal as long as you only vape 0nic. Just like the ban on pot didnt make selling pipes illegal, because people still use the pipes for tobacco(wink).

 

[kristin]

Here is my two cents......any political pressure to ban is coming from lobbiest, and the FDA is the tool being pushed hardest.

The lobbyists are from what I like to call the "Axis of Evil": American Academy of Pediatrics, American Cancer Society Cancer Action Network, American Heart Association, American Legacy Foundation, American Lung Association, American Medical Association, Action on Smoking and Health, Public Citizen and Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids and of course, ASH (who takes the credit for getting the FDA involved.)

Second effort is through a state by state ban "until the FDA can approve/disapprove". Its not the FDA itself that is fronting this attack.

That's kind of backwards. It's mostly the lobbyists mentioned above doing the grunt work, but they work for the Axis. The Axis has filed an Amicus Brief supporting the FDA in Smoking Everywhere vs. FDA, so these organizations are working very closely - too closely to see who really is the "head honcho" so they may as well be considered one and the same.

The attempted state bans are a direct result of the actions of the Axis and the FDA. We have written documents and video proof that the ban laws are being written by these groups and pushed on unsuspecting legislators (who get lies instead of facts, so of course think the ban is reasonable.)

So it's the FDA and Axis affecting the states, not the states acting on their own.

Any ban rhetoric that includes "the same chemical as antifreeze" is coming from big tobacco. They cant come right out and say "dont do this its bad for you", so they need to function more covert.

Wrong. Big Tobacco has nothing to do with it. The "antifreeze" accusation came DIRECTLY from the FDA press statement and is used by the Axis of Evil to influence/convince legislators, doctors, health groups, etc. that ecigs are bad.

Big PHARMA is who is behind this. They fund all of the groups in the Axis of Evil.

Big Tobacco has it's own sights on ecigs and seems to be sitting back and waiting to see what happens. They benefit from ecigs winning - they are the source of nicotine AND if ecigs can be seen as acceptable, BT's own smokeless alternatives will have an expanded market.

Ecigs are only a threat to Big Pharma nicotine cessation products and government tax revenue - not Big Tobacco. Millions of acres of cigarette tobacco can simply be diverted to processing for ecig nicotine. (Ironically, Big Tobacco also makes money off of Big Pharma's need for nicotine for it's cessation products!)

It's win-win for Big Tobacco, so long as there is a demand for nicotine.

New York is their test ground, here is the video of the bill being passed:
E-cig sales banned in New York!!!!!
One bill did pass but is now jammed up........so what does this mean to us?

The bill passed in the New York Assembly, but it has to pass in the Senate before it goes to the governor to be made into law. So far, it seems that the efforts of advocacy groups such as CASAA, National Vapers Club, Smokefree Pennsylvania, Midwest Vapers Group and Right to Vape have at least helped in getting the bill off the table for this session. (That and New York has a lot of other issues commanding attention just now!)

 

[Captu4ik]

ASH (who takes the credit for getting the FDA involved.)

The "antifreeze" accusation came DIRECTLY from the FDA press statement and is used by the Axis of Evil to influence/convince legislators, doctors, health groups, etc. that ecigs are bad.

This might be off-topic, but ...

Didn't ASH pressure the FDA to hold it's Press Conference last Summer ? Or is that just ASH propaganda ?

I assumed the Diethylene Glycol, etc. were presented by the FDA because they were put on the spot (by Banzhaf) to produce something negative, quickly, and they just didn't have anything ...

Hard to believe that ASH 'ole Banzhaf would be lining up with big tobacco's interests .

 

[kristin]

This might be off-topic, but ...

Didn't ASH pressure the FDA to hold it's Press Conference last Summer ? Or is that just ASH propaganda ?

I assumed the Diethylene Glycol, etc. were presented by the FDA because they were put on the spot (by Banzhaf) to produce something negative, quickly, and they just didn't have anything ...

Hard to believe that ASH 'ole Banzhaf would be lining up with big tobacco's interests .

And there's the rub.

The activities of these anti-tobacco groups have aligned them squarely with the interests of Big Tobacco. (If you mean keeping cigarettes as the only product on the market.)

Really, they are aligned with Big Pharma, though.

Ironic, isn't it?

To answer your question about ASH - he CLAIMS that his contacting the FDA was the reason that ecigs came on the FDA's radar, but we don't know for certain. (Because the FDA didn't say one way or another.)