Arcing?

[TrollDragon]

The Wismec Luxotic BF uses the case as negative as well. I was going to convert it over using one of Big Al's iSwitch boards, but it fires off the negative connection and I don't like the design of the battery holder to invert the +/- battery orientation.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

ipv mini uses the case for negative.

 

[Ed Brown]

Great discussion!

I put the battery in with the positive down where the vent holes are, to test the theory about pitting location vs. the current flow. It's producing the same pitting in the negative terminal. So that theory is now in question.

Wouldn't pitting at the negative terminal run the risk of rupturing the cell itself? It appears that the positive terminal is separate from the envelope of the cell.

Presently looking at a Kennedy mod with an available constant contact switch.

 

[Superuser187]

Without using a mech mod I assume that no matter the orientation of the battery u would still get the arcing cause the surface of the 510 terminal notthat touches the battery maybe it's not big enough??m??but good u tried ofc... Also since like others say yes it's good idea to be positive to venting holes...
I think that the arc effect is affected by the power u draw from battery and in this case the coils ressistance?? Just guessing and without any experience in mechs when I first heard there is a mod that's works like that didn't seem like a good idea so yeah it's good u will go for something else...
Your post tho makes me want to go into checking what kinds of mech tubes are available in the market and how they work and maybe get one or maybe build one with the help of a friend with cnc ofc
It's nothing fancy anyways and I don't know why they are Soo overpriced btw...
In my opinion ofc

 

[zoiDman]

Great discussion!

I put the battery in with the positive down where the vent holes are, to test the theory about pitting location vs. the current flow. It's producing the same pitting in the negative terminal. So that theory is now in question.

...

If you get Pitting on the Negative Side of your Battery no matter which way you put it in the Mech, Doesn't that Support the Theory of Current Flow?

I mean, if you got Pitting on say the 510 Side No Matter how the Battery is put in, then I would think it has something to do with that side of the Mech.

BTW - It's time for some Close Up JPEGS of this Battery Pitting.

 

[Seiggy]

I would think the arcing would occur where ever the circuit is being completed at. For bottom switch mods (at the bottom, battery orientation independent). For side mounted switches, (at the contact points of the switch). I'm just thinking of the arc you see with electrical light switches, brushes on motors, or creating N-R-N wires. Just my

 

[Superuser187]

ohh thought by putting the negative side on the 510 pin the aim was to have larger surface area and maybe not arc hard and cause problem to the battery...
Plus the positive would be on the vents side...
But now seems u tested to see the current flow....HMMMMMM interesting even tho in my experience with any other electical systems this doesn't matter but I would like to see if it does in this case...

BTW at school the teacher has told us that the electrons move from negative to positive but that don't mean that the current flows with electrons and that the current actually flow the opposite way of the electrons sooo from potitive to negative..
I was sooooo confused....and I still don't know but as a car mechanic that also repairs electronic devices without have studying that tho just learning on my own and doing mostly simple stuff like easy repairs on boards and stuff like that incan diagnose cause that's the harder part of.it hahah....and anyways I never had any problem or needed to know the flow of current Soo far...
I am.gonna continue believe that it's from the negative to positive cause that's how I am used to think of it hahahaha.
And btw earth if flat... JK I don't believe that tho
BTW if u have any new or results in this let us know

 

[zoiDman]

...

BTW at school the teacher has told us that the electrons move from negative to positive but that don't mean that the current flows with electrons and that the current actually flow the opposite way of the electrons sooo from potitive to negative..
I was sooooo confused....

What your Teacher probably said was something like... "In the Conventional Flow of Current for DC Circuits, Positive Particles flow from the Positive End of a Battery to the Negative End of the Battery."

All this was Hunky Dory for Ben Franklin. And for about Everyone else for about 150 Years or so.

But then J.J. Thomson came along in 1897 and Discovered the Electron. And that is when the Problems started. Because J.J. Thomson showed that Electrons have a Negative Charge. So the Flow would be Backwards from what Ole Ben said it was.

And it Had to be. Because just like the Negative end of Magnet is Attracted to the Positive End of another Magnet, so did Negatively Charged Electrons.

And the Math Wouldn't Jive if we did it Ben's way. And the Right-Hand Rule didn't/doesn't work.

So.... The Powers that be Cooked Up an Idea. Instead of saying that for 150 Years they had it Wrong, they made a New Term called the "Conventional Current Flow" direction. Which is the Direction that Ben said it was, with a "Positively" Charged Particle.

And then the Created a 2nd Term... the "Actual Electron Flow" direction. Which is what is Actually Happening.

They Still teach that about Conventional Current Flow in Grade/High School. And to make things about 10x More Confusing, sometimes they Omit the word "Conventional". And just call it "Current Flow".

Those Books should be Burned. But talking about Book Burning on Christmas seems a Tad Over-the-Top. So I'll just leave it there.

And Hope Everyone is Having/Had a Great Christmas.

 

[Ed Brown]

If you get Pitting on the Negative Side of your Battery no matter which way you put it in the Mech, Doesn't that Support the Theory of Current Flow?

I mean, if you got Pitting on say the 510 Side No Matter how the Battery is put in, then I would think it has something to do with that side of the Mech.

When the battery had the positive end against the 510, the pitting occurred on the positive end of the battery. When the battery had the negative end against the 510, the pitting occurred on the negative end of the battery.

The "switch" is 510 pin making and breaking contact with the battery. The current direction reversed when the battery was switched.

The article said that the heat of the arc, plus the electrons leaving the surface causes molecules of the metal to vaporize, creating a pit. So it would only occur at the 510 pin on one or the other surface. With the battery one way, it would occur on the battery. With the battery the other way, it would occur on the pin.

But this seems to have been debunked in this situation.

The only other thing I can think of is that the 510 pin is made of a harder material than the battery terminals and creates an impression. But I tried scratching the battery terminal with the pin and it didn't make a scratch.

I'm ready to call it an unsolved mystery.

 

[zoiDman]

When the battery had the positive end against the 510, the pitting occurred on the positive end of the battery. When the battery had the negative end against the 510, the pitting occurred on the negative end of the battery.

...

OK. That makes sense.

So the Problem is at the connection of the Atomizer's 510 Pin and the Battery. No Matter which end is Pointed towards the 510 pin. Have you tried Very Lightly Sanding the 510 Pin of your Atomizer?

If that Doesn't Help, you might be Right with that Unsolved Mysteries thing.

 

[zoiDman]

BTW - That Pitting Doesn't look all that Bad. I'd keep my Eye on it. But I Wouldn't be too Freaked Out by it.

 

[Ed Brown]

Thanks zoiDman.

 

[Superuser187]

Great discussion!

I put the battery in with the positive down where the vent holes are, to test the theory about pitting location vs. the current flow. It's producing the same pitting in the negative terminal. So that theory is now in question.

Wouldn't pitting at the negative terminal run the risk of rupturing the cell itself? It appears that the positive terminal is separate from the envelope of the cell.

Presently looking at a Kennedy mod with an available constant contact switch.

Yes the positive side it's a little raised but also feels like the metal there could be much thinner than the negative side that is also the whole casing of the ba

What your Teacher probably said was something like... "In the Conventional Flow of Current for DC Circuits, Positive Particles flow from the Positive End of a Battery to the Negative End of the Battery."

All this was Hunky Dory for Ben Franklin. And for about Everyone else for about 150 Years or so.

But then J.J. Thomson came along in 1897 and Discovered the Electron. And that is when the Problems started. Because J.J. Thomson showed that Electrons have a Negative Charge. So the Flow would be Backwards from what Ole Ben said it was.

And it Had to be. Because just like the Negative end of Magnet is Attracted to the Positive End of another Magnet, so did Negatively Charged Electrons.

And the Math Wouldn't Jive if we did it Ben's way. And the Right-Hand Rule didn't/doesn't work.

So.... The Powers that be Cooked Up an Idea. Instead of saying that for 150 Years they had it Wrong, they made a New Term called the "Conventional Current Flow" direction. Which is the Direction that Ben said it was, with a "Positively" Charged Particle.

And then the Created a 2nd Term... the "Actual Electron Flow" direction. Which is what is Actually Happening.

They Still teach that about Conventional Current Flow in Grade/High School. And to make things about 10x More Confusing, sometimes they Omit the word "Conventional". And just call it "Current Flow".

Those Books should be Burned. But talking about Book Burning on Christmas seems a Tad Over-the-Top. So I'll just leave it there.

And Hope Everyone is Having/Had a Great Christmas.


View attachment 923411

It's years ago but yes I only remember how confusing it was and i couldn't believe it even tho I didn't knew if he was right or wrong... But yeah now u said it that's what happend for sure and he wasn't saying that's stuff....it's ok it's Christmas's and make use their fireplace Soooo some books can be used to start the fire cause there are many books need burning
Many people say that u won't learn things in school but u will learn at work but in my opinion the theory we learn at school/universities it's the base that will make u go a step further in your profession...
Aaaaanyways merry Christmas

 

[Superuser187]

When the battery had the positive end against the 510, the pitting occurred on the positive end of the battery. When the battery had the negative end against the 510, the pitting occurred on the negative end of the battery.

The "switch" is 510 pin making and breaking contact with the battery. The current direction reversed when the battery was switched.

The article said that the heat of the arc, plus the electrons leaving the surface causes molecules of the metal to vaporize, creating a pit. So it would only occur at the 510 pin on one or the other surface. With the battery one way, it would occur on the battery. With the battery the other way, it would occur on the pin.

But this seems to have been debunked in this situation.

The only other thing I can think of is that the 510 pin is made of a harder material than the battery terminals and creates an impression. But I tried scratching the battery terminal with the pin and it didn't make a scratch.

I'm ready to call it an unsolved mystery.


View attachment 923405 View attachment 923407

Other mechs don't have teminals?? I mean some copper terminals I guess ?? How the 510 pin makes contact with the battery I mean? Maybe the 510pin on your mod is kinda narrow ? If it's narrow it imagine it was pointy it would be even worst to arc in smaller area... haHaha it would be like those arc welders I don't know how to say in English not the ones that we use electrodes but the ones that u arc 2 metals to stuck them together....
they are used also when u want to connect many batteries together using metal strips cause if u use soldering on the battery poles u will damage them from extrended heat while this method of Arc welding is instant and not heat batteries much...I don't know how it's called xD aaaanyways
I am saying the 510 that touches the battery should be kinda wide and maybe that would help with the arcing but anyways it is what it is and it's not soooooo bad I guess interesting thread tho I like learn stuff...thanks hoomans

 

[gsmit1]

But it Doesn't Seem to be that way. Some Get Arcing and Some Don't. And I have read threads where people post about Arcing and others reply that they are using the Same Mech and the Same Batteries and have Never had any.

A good switch ... incorporates some kind snap action to make contact happen faster.

I don't get much arcing in my mechs, even with mechs where others say they do.

I think it's because of the way people use the switch. Or at least it's a significant factor.

I use firm quick presses and releases. Arcing happens across the air between 2 electrically charged surfaces. Minimize the air time, minimize the arcing. According to my theory anyway. Seems to work. I really do get hardly any arcing in any of my many mechs.

 

[gsmit1]

That's such an interesting diagram. I wonder how much more time before failure correct orientation would provide?

Compared to a hard short? Infinitely more

Right. Depending on the build it could be anything from the coil eventually melting (unlikely) and breaking the circuit or it firing indefinitely until the user opens the circuit or the battery is dead, to the batteries getting hot enough to actually fail. Which could take 10 or 20 seconds, or more.

With a hard short it's instant venting or explosion. I know a guy who accidentally installed his batteries in series in a parallel box and he said the instant the cap made contact with the second battery it went off like a roman candle.

 

[DaveP]

I remember sitting in this Applied Physic class in college and the Professor drawing a Coil attached to a Battery and starting to explain how the flow of electricity induces a Magnetic Field.

Right as the Professor is about to launch into the Line Integrals and tie them into Maxwell's Equation, this student raises his hand and tells the Professor he made a Mistake. That he had the Flow coming out of the Negative End of the Battery and not the Positive end.

The Professor went into this Mini-Tirade about Franklin Screwed Up things for all to Follow. How Countless Minds had be Ruined. And that his Picture should be Removed from the Hundred Dollar Bill.

LOL

We went through that scenario in electronics class decades ago. It depends on the theory and the thinking that follows current flow or electron hole flow. Is the glass half full or half empty?

Which Way Does Electricity Flow?

 

[Ed Brown]

Nice Graphic, DaveP, but one electron per second wouldn't be very many amps.
But then again, it would be hard to show 6,240,000,000,000,000,000 electrons doing their thing.

 

[DaveP]

Nice Graphic, DaveP, but one electron per second wouldn't be very many amps.
But then again, it would be hard to show 6,240,000,000,000,000,000 electrons doing their thing.

Yup. it depends on the size of the conductor, the current source, and the load presented across the terminals.

DC current flow is easy. AC reverses polarity 60 times per second. Electrons must be in a constant state of confusion about which way to go and how do I prevent crashing into the guy behind me when the polarity reverses? Chinese fire drill comes to mind.