Are you religious?
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He has said that he is (I am). And as a responsible creator he has provided the alternatives. We decide. We now live in a fallen world for a short time as a result of our choices. The creator forsaw this and from the beginning made arrangements for redemption. I know, I didn't choose this suffering but I choose to believe that this suffering is not wasted. Do I understand it all? No, half the time I'm not sure why I do the things I do. But I refuse to believe that it's all a waste of time. I can't see the big picture. I have a good friend, Scott who suffers from cerebral palsy (sp) and is one of the most positive people I have ever met. Scott has become an ordained minister and has a joy and love for God like almost no one else. Did he choose to have his disease? No. Would he choose to be relieved of his illness? Yes. He believes all things work to the greater good for those in Christ. I find it difficult to argue with him. I think it's probably more cruel to think these things (sufferings) have no purpose.
None of us decided, that's my point, your god supposedly decided for us that we should exist. There is no way to argue that the initial creative impulse is for the good of the created.
He created good and evil. They came from the same source - he is responsible for them.
He favours some and projects evil on others. He punishes.
He is inconsistent with ethical and good standards of behaviour and you should be ashamed to try to justify such magnitude of suffering.
Believe what you want but don't judge me for thinking you are mad.
Alas m'dear Kate I don't think you are mad (that would be judging). Maybe a little angry, not judging but just making an observation. Jesus said God is love. Perhaps we should just leave it at that. But you keep talking about "your god." I'm just saying find the God that is and don't take anyone else's version without experiencing it for yourself.
Sorry I'm coming across as angry Wanderlust, I apologise. This is something that's had a dramatic influence on my life and I have thought deeply about many of the issues we are discussing. It's not really anger so much as passion. Well, maybe being judged or being preached to by evangelists can wind me up but if someone intends well I can't hold it against them for too long, I just don't think preaching helps their case.
I agree that this is a healthy view and back it 100% - "I'm just saying find the God that is and don't take anyone else's version without experiencing it for yourself."
For the record, my understanding of Jesus is that he's one of the goodies and I wouldn't want to give the idea that I thought he was a bad person.
It's the primal one god ideas that I've come across that don't add up for me. Why would a single consciousness choose to fragment and initiate such immense collective pain. Unless it wasn't intelligent, pure or conscious in the sense we use the words.
Some of my own personal role models: Buddha, Jesus, Martin Luther King Jr, Gandhi, suffragettes and collectivists.
(By the way, I am certifiably mad
)
I agree that this is a healthy view and back it 100% - "I'm just saying find the God that is and don't take anyone else's version without experiencing it for yourself."
For the record, my understanding of Jesus is that he's one of the goodies and I wouldn't want to give the idea that I thought he was a bad person.
It's the primal one god ideas that I've come across that don't add up for me. Why would a single consciousness choose to fragment and initiate such immense collective pain. Unless it wasn't intelligent, pure or conscious in the sense we use the words.
Some of my own personal role models: Buddha, Jesus, Martin Luther King Jr, Gandhi, suffragettes and collectivists.
(By the way, I am certifiably mad
)
I don't know the answer. I have two children and they are a product of the love my wife and I share. We made a decision to have children and I suppose that was a selfish act. We really wanted to share the love we've known. I would do just about anythinig for my children and with the first one I'm afraid I sometimes did too much. I didn't want them to suffer any pain. I could tell her the stove was hot and would hurt until I was blue in the face. She would eventually sneak around and touch it. After enough of these experiences she eventually at least listened well enough to consider the act she contemplated. She is still hardheaded though. I love her with all my heart and yet can't give her a painfree existance. She has to live her own life with all its ups and downs. I'll always love my children; no matter the choices they make. And it always pains me to see their suffering, but I also know it's necessary. Have you ever read "Hind's Feet on High Places?" If not I would suggest you check it out. It's a good short read and very inspirational whether one believes in God or not. Kate I hope you know there is no offense taken on my part and I try not to be offending.
You know what I find remarkable is that people don't believe in a creator. Is it easier to assume that from nothing at least two particles appeared and in the vast emptiness of nothing happended to collide into each other and created all the order that exists today? To me it's easier to accept the notion of Intelligent Design and wonder about the mystery and majesty of the creator.
Hey you two. Go to your corners and wait for the bell. No low blows. Break when I say break.
Hi Kate. I'm intrigued by what you say. Can you give us some sources on the ethics and health? I know you bashed Frankl, do you have anything for us? Which evil God was it that slit your throat?
No, I haven't read that, maybe I'll look it up, thanks
I don't think either of us mean offence or disrespect and I like hearing your views, thanks for chatting with me.
Kids can be a blessing, I know that, I bet you're a good dad.
There's some good information about ethics here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/lying/lying_1.shtml
Who bashed Frankl? I don't even know who that is
It was the Abrahamic, one god that had me cut my throat.
I am afraid I just get frustrated by it all.....you could talk forever to someone who 'believes' in something that cannot be proved and the conversation just goes around and around in circles. They can keep going on and on about the things that 'prove' their beliefs but when it comes down to it there is absolutely nothing at all that proves anything.
Loads of different religions, with loads of different views .....highly intelligent people in all of them 'believing' they know the answers ....the fact is a jellyfish probably knows just as much as we do about the meaning of it all.
Loads of different religions, with loads of different views .....highly intelligent people in all of them 'believing' they know the answers ....the fact is a jellyfish probably knows just as much as we do about the meaning of it all.
TallGirl I believe the word translated evil refers to the calamaties of the world such as earthquakes,etc. The world is an everchanging and flexible thing and this passage is referring to the things physical in nature rather than moral.
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"No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always convinced that it says what he means."
Here are some more...of course he is responsible.
EX 4:11 AM 3:6 IS 45:7
Here are some more...of course he is responsible.
EX 4:11 AM 3:6 IS 45:7
I think debate or discussions lead to thinking on new levels and help secure a believer in their faith or a non-believer in their lack of it. I like to reevaluate my thoughts/opinions from time to time. I always think that maybe this time someone will say something profound enough to way me to their side. If I can wade thru the platitudes and diatribes that is.
The thing that I can't help thinking is that if there is a 'creater' of everything.....he/she/it would be just as hopelessly confused as we are about why they exist and how they came into being and even worse than that ..wouldn't have anyone else to talk to about it!! ...being the only one of your kind would be very lonely.
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