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JeffTM

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 2, 2010
114
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Chatsworth, CA
Well, surprise, surprise...this thread is still alive. It's definitely starting to creep to an early demise though.

On that note, I shall post a lovely link for all to gnash their teeth upon:

NIOSH - Preventing Lung Disease in Workers Who Use or Make Flavorings - Publication No. 2004 - 110

Interestingly, less than 5% of all flavorings have been tested for inhalation effects. So, while diacetyl has some known (albiet, small scale) effects. There are at least 900+ others that have yet to be tested. Should you care to look at the appendix, you may find that several known components in your juices do have tests completed and inhalation exposure limits posted. Perhaps those should be researched as thoroughly as diacetyl. Try to move beyond wikipedia though.

Nice condescending post. So your point is that there may be other chemicals that are also dangerous to inhale, so we shouldn't have any concern about diacetyl? Or is it that e-liquids probably have a bunch of dangerous chemicals, so why bother asking them to disclose what they use? I'm guessing your point was really just to show off your "superior" research skills and take a shot at those of us that have a different opinion than you.

I'm willing to be proven wrong. In the meantime, I'll be on Wikipedia, since I'm such a simpleton and all.
 

Tinman402

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Aug 31, 2010
139
0
pulaski, tn
I have always been under the impression Wikipedia should be taken with a grain of salt due to the nature of anyone being able to start or edit a wiki..

Most are accurate but I know college courses I have taken wouldn't allow wikipedia as a source of reference, you actually had to find where Wiki cited it from and go with that. Not saying reports there are inaccurate just saying consider the sources when you use a reference.

I haven't waded through this whole thread but it seems to me everyone is being a little too defensive and aggressive... Self-control and factual conversations lead to much better outcomes..
 

harpo

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 19, 2009
2,552
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Yuba City, California
I'm just glad Halo doesn't use it. They're going to get even more of my money. FSUSA and Tasty Vapor as well. Thanks to these vendors for giving a **** about our health. Kudos to them for doing the research before we did.

Where did you get your info on FSUSA not using it?
 

Seabrook

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Mar 17, 2010
4,687
19,723
Oceanside, CA
@JeffTM
Here's another draft you can play around with if you're still sending out letters to suppliers.

Dear [Supplier],

Lately there has been concern by some members of the Electronic Cigarette Forum (ECF) regarding the use of flavorings containing trace amounts of diacetyl in the manufacture of eLiquids. There is also some concern over which chemicals can be substituted as diacetyl (i.e., 2,3-Pentanedione (acetylpropionyl); and 2,4-pentanedione (Acetoacetone, acetylacetone, diacetylmethane, pentanedione), while still retaining the buttery undertones and flavor-enhancing qualities we have begun to favor.

Some people have looked at the data available and have decided that in the trace amounts of diacetyl present in these liquids, it is not a personal concern in their choice of vaping juice.

However, others have chosen to avoid vaping juices containing diacetyl and/or 2,3-Pentanedione (acetylpropionyl); and 2,4-pentanedione (Acetoacetone, acetylacetone, diacetylmethane, pentanedione) in these trace amounts.

We, as a community are divided in our conclusion. We do not know whether these TRACE amounts of diacetyl (and the aforementioned chemical substitutes) are safe or not to inhale through vaping liquids since there is currently no data available on long-term studies to consider. We also understand that the majority of flavorings used in eLiquid was made to use in the food industry.

So, until these studies are researched, we (as a community) request disclosure of which of the eLiquids contain flavorings which include these TRACE amounts of diacetyl and/or 2,3-Pentanedione (acetylpropionyl); and 2,4-pentanedione (Acetoacetone, acetylacetone, diacetylmethane, pentanedione) as an ingredient. This would include pre-mixed liquids from other companies and those which your company blends for public consumption via inhalation.

If you choose to participate in this disclosure request, we request this statement of disclosure to be posted on your website for accountability and credibility. A simple eMail/PM/over-the-phone response will not be considered as public disclosure. Disclosing this information will ensure that customers have a choice and can exercise their right of choice of vaping eLiquids whether or not they contain the ingredients in question at their discretion. Please and thank you.

Respectively submitted,

(ecf forum members)

EDIT: This letter does not put a pro or anti to it. It simply asks for disclosure and why we would like it.
 
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JeffTM

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 2, 2010
114
7
Chatsworth, CA
@JeffTM
Here's another draft you can play around with if you're still sending out letters to suppliers.

Dear [Supplier],

Lately there has been concern by some members of the Electronic Cigarette Forum (ECF) regarding the use of flavorings containing trace amounts of diacetyl in the manufacture of eLiquids. There is also some concern over which chemicals can be substituted as diacetyl (i.e., 2,3-Pentanedione (acetylpropionyl); and 2,4-pentanedione (Acetoacetone, acetylacetone, diacetylmethane, pentanedione), while still retaining the buttery undertones and flavor-enhancing qualities we have begun to favor.

Some people have looked at the data available and have decided that in the trace amounts of diacetyl present in these liquids, it is not a personal concern in their choice of vaping juice.

However, others have chosen to avoid vaping juices containing diacetyl and/or 2,3-Pentanedione (acetylpropionyl); and 2,4-pentanedione (Acetoacetone, acetylacetone, diacetylmethane, pentanedione) in these trace amounts.
We, as a community are divided in our conclusion. We do not know whether these TRACE amounts of diacetyl (and the aforementioned chemical substitutes) are safe or not to inhale through vaping liquids since there is currently no data available on long-term studies to consider. We also understand that the majority of flavorings used in eLiquid was made to use in the food industry.

So, until these studies are researched, we (as a community) request disclosure of which of the eLiquids contain flavorings which include these TRACE amounts of diacetyl and/or 2,3-Pentanedione (acetylpropionyl); and 2,4-pentanedione (Acetoacetone, acetylacetone, diacetylmethane, pentanedione) as an ingredient. This would include pre-mixed liquids from other companies and those which your company blends for public consumption via inhalation.

If you choose to participate in this disclosure request, we request this statement of disclosure to be posted on your website for accountability and credibility. A simple eMail/PM/over-the-phone response will not be considered as public disclosure. Disclosing this information will ensure that customers have a choice and can exercise their right of choice of vaping eLiquids whether or not they contain the ingredients in question at their discretion. Please and thank you.

Respectively submitted,

(ecf forum members)

EDIT: This letter does not put a pro or anti to it. It simply asks for disclosure and why we would like it.

Great letter. I have sent a few revised versions of my letter out to most of the companies I can think of, with a few good responses, one so-so response, and no responses from the rest. I think it might be better if you sent out this letter (I'm assuming you're the one who wrote it) since most of these companies have already gotten an email from me.
 

Seabrook

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Mar 17, 2010
4,687
19,723
Oceanside, CA
I will be composing my own letter requesting diacetyl (and substitutes) disclosure to the flavoring companies, not suppliers, as all I ever vape is DIY. Most flavoring companies have made their flavorings for the food industry not vaping, so they will be happy to disclose. Vaping it was not in their original manufacturing plan. That is not their specialty and, of course, I would not suggest otherwise. I just want disclosure, that's all. Then I can make my own decision. L8r.
 

rockyroad

Life is Good
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 30, 2010
759
304
63
Indiana
I will be composing my own letter requesting diacetyl (and substitutes) disclosure to the flavoring companies, not suppliers, as all I ever vape is DIY. Most flavoring companies have made their flavorings for the food industry not vaping, so they will be happy to disclose. Vaping it was not in their original manufacturing plan. That is not their specialty and, of course, I would not suggest otherwise. I just want disclosure, that's all. Then I can make my own decision. L8r.
Thanks Seabrook and diligence girl. WTG Jeff ....your back! the train is not wrecked, just in a tunnel for a bit. Stay positive, focused and reply with intelligence....now I sound like Mrs. Buser my B.S.U. psychology professor.
 

JeffTM

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 2, 2010
114
7
Chatsworth, CA
Thanks Seabrook and diligence girl. WTG Jeff ....your back! the train is not wrecked, just in a tunnel for a bit. Stay positive, focused and reply with intelligence....now I sound like Mrs. Buser my B.S.U. psychology professor.

I'll give it a shot. I like to think I'm able to give a level-headed response no matter what, but I sometimes react unskillfully when I'm talked to (or typed to) in certain ways.

I've posted this before, but my post has probably gotten lost in the sea of replies and I want to say it again. As the OP of the thread, I'm wishing I gave it a different name. Something more like "Ask your favorite suppliers to list their ingredients. Yay!" The truth is we can argue about how good or bad diacetyl and other specific ingredients are until the cows come home. Until there is conclusive evidence, I say we stay away from that topic on this thread. The fact of the matter is I think we should kindly ask suppliers to list the chemicals in their liquids. The list of ingredients that are potentially damaging will probably change over and over again as time passes.

As vapers, I'm for *us* being responsible for doing our own research about what we may want to stay away from. I'm hoping the FDA and clinical studies will help make this research easier down the road, but for now, we'll have to do what we can. Then we can make our own decision about what liquids to vape and what to avoid. The problem is we can't choose which juices we feel are best for us if suppliers don't disclose this information, which is why I'm for urging them to do so.

I know I've repeated myself a gajillion times, but it seems necessary since this thread keeps veering towards a discussion on how bad diacetyl is and whether or not we're being "hysterical" for wanting to stay away from it.
 

Seabrook

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Mar 17, 2010
4,687
19,723
Oceanside, CA
@JeffTM.

You're right in that we're responsible for our own research, but it's nice to share with others that have busier lifestyles. Don't feel badly about opening this can of worms. It needed to be brought to my attention (speaking for myself). I didn't know there had been a concern in the past on ECF of diacetyl. And I see both sides of it now. It all boils down to freedom of choice. The reason we're finding diacetyl being used a few places is that flavoring companies were food-industry based, and diacetyl was not deemed unsafe in food-based consumables.

I think we're pretty much settled down and through with the diacetyl being safe or unsafe, and now we all agree on what we want is disclosure so we can make our own decisions. As a very light ex-smoker, my lungs already are somewhat damaged. I just want to get them healed. Truthfully, after the novelty of vaping diminishes with me, I would like to also quit vaping.
 

warbdan

Moved On
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Sep 12, 2009
795
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Somerset, Kentucky, United States
I found this on FlavourArt's website. At the end there is a list of their flavorings that contain diacetyl and the percentage contained.

Diacetyl

We noticed an interest to use our flavours in electronic smoking or vaping and some customers rised question about the presence in some formulations of a compound known as Diacetyl.
First, we would like to clarify what diacetyl is. The following info are sourced from IFIC, International Food Information Council. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is diacetyl and where is it found?
Diacetyl and related compounds produce the buttery odor and flavor of many foods. It occurs as a natural byproduct of fermentation and is found in several dairy products like butter, cheese and milk as well as in bread, coffee, brandy, and rum. It also is manufactured as a component of artificial butter flavoring that is used in butter-flavored microwave popcorn, candy, baked goods and cake mixes. Are there other flavors like diacetyl? Yes. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) defines replacement flavors or flavoring agents as “substances added to impart or help impart a taste or aroma in food.”
There are also flavor enhancers, which are “substances added to supplement, enhance, or modify the original taste and/or aroma of a food, without imparting a characteristic taste or aroma of its own.” Flavors and flavor enhances are considered part of the larger group of food additives which the FDA regulates. This includes determining their safe use in food. Are there any significant health risks in consuming foods containing diacetyl? No. The FDA currently classifies diacetyl as “Generally Recognized as Safe” (GRAS) for consumption.
What about potential health effects of inhaling diacetyl vapors? Concerns about inhalation of diacetyl vapors stem from worker safety issues, not from the general public consuming or smelling foods flavored with diacetyl in the home. Interest in the possible inhalation effects of diacetyl first arose when workers in a microwave popcorn production facility developed breathing problems in the late 1990’s. Since that time, experience with people working in factories around diacetyl and research in animals has suggested that frequent and repeated breathing of high concentrations of diacetyl in the air may be associated with an extremely rare lung condition known as bronchiolitis obliterans.
This condition can cause scarring of the small airways in the lung, which can result in less air exchange in the airways and over time, airway blockage. As with most medical issues, an individual’s medical history and ongoing medical conditions may influence their response to diacetyl, so some individuals may be more sensitive than others to the inhalation effects of diacetyl. In April 2007, the Occupational and Safety Health Administration (OSHA) launched a program to address hazards and control measures associated with factories where butter-flavored microwave popcorn is produced.
The FDA continues to seek additional information to help further clarify any health effects from diacetyl. Is the industry doing anything about the potential health effects to workers? Yes. Because of the potential health risks from repeated exposure, the industry has implemented changes to reduce workplace exposure to diacetyl, including implementing engineering controls such as closed mixing tanks, separate mixing rooms for butter flavors, requiring respirators for mixing room operators, and improving air circulation in facilities. Putting the Risk in Perspective: Here’s What you Need to Know . . .
There is currently no evidence of health risks to the general public from preparing or consuming butter-flavored popcorn, or any other product containing diacetyl, in the home, as directed. These products can be enjoyed along with a healthful diet rich in nutrients. Current research indicates that there may be a potential health risk to individuals who are repeatedly exposed to high concentrations of diacetyl vapors for an extended period of time, such as individuals who work in facilities that manufacture or use certain flavorings containing diacetyl. However, these concerns do not apply to the average person consuming products containing diacetyl. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So this should clear the fact that diacetyl is normally consumed when people eat butter, drink beer or wine, eat a fruit and its moderate consumption is harmless.
However we realize that for E smokers, our food flavors are used in a different way as they are not ingested but inhaled, and the presence of diacetyl can be a cause of concern.
So we are pleased to inform our customers, which flavours contain diacetyl and related amount in %. Just consider that the amount shown is related to 100% flavor, so when used in finished product its content is less. As example, butter flavor dosed at 0,3% in E juice.
The amount of diacetyl in 100 ml of E.juice is 0,0045 grams.
Assuming that a typical E cigarette contains an average of 0,2ml of E juice, the amount of diacetyl assumed in a smoking session is...... 0,000009 grams or 0,009 ppm (part per million).
Always consider the dosage in use !

LAST UPDATE OCTOBER 2010
Apple pie 0,4
Beer 0,001
Butter 1,5
Butterscotch 0,012
Beef boiled 0,00005
Bell pepper 0,01
Cappuccino 0,001
Chestnut 0,03
Champagne 0,0016
Coconut 0,5
Croissant 0,074
Cheese Erdammer 0,09
Cheese Emmenthal 0,018
Cheese Parmigiano 0,29
Caramel and butterscotch 0,07
Corn 0,2
Cream 0,078
Egg yolk 0,015
Fried 0,01
Golden syrup 0,09
Hazelnut 0,01
Maple 0,012
Milk condensed 0,5
Malt 0,01
Melon 0,01
Nut wild mix 0,9
Olive 0,01
Potato 0,00012
Pistacchio 0,0015
Rum 0,022
Soy sauce 0,35
Salmon 0,02
Truffle black 0,1
Tiramisu 0,05
Vanilla classic 0,07
Vanilla Madagascar 0,04
Vanilla Tahiti 0,08
Yogurt 1,6

Disclaimer: We produce and sell FOOD FLAVORS which comply with Italian and EU legislation and EFSA reccomendation. They are safe for FOOD use as they are intended to enter the body by the digestive system, not by lungs.
Digestion involves acid breakdown, enzyme attack, and kidney and liver processing. Vapor by the lungs goes directly in the blood stream. Even though due to absence of combustion, vaping can be compared to odor smelling in open air, consumption of food flavors by vaping has not been specifically tested for safety. Flavourart srl can not be held responsible for any claim or damage arising by the use of food flavor by the means of electronic devices as E-vapers, E cigarettes and similar.
 

warbdan

Moved On
ECF Veteran
Sep 12, 2009
795
17
Somerset, Kentucky, United States
From LorAnn's FAQ:

Do any of your flavors contain diacetyl?
No, none of LorAnn's flavors contain diacetyl

From Capellas:

Capella Flavor Drops for e-Liquid Use (DIY)


Our Flavors are Food Grade Flavorings , and are DIACETYL FREE.

NOT PERFUME Chemicals or Perfume ingredients.

Capella Flavor Drops highly concentrated PG based, water soluable flavorings are being used by many for making delicious e-liquid(eliquid) or better known as e-juice(ejuice)

Our flavors do NOT contain any Red,Yellow, or Blue dyes which could be harmful to your atomizer.

From Perfumer's Apprentice Website:


Butter Flavor

water soluble
This is a liquid butter similar to movie popcorn butter. It does not contain Diacetyl
(none of our flavors do)
Ingredients: Natural & Artificial Flavors, Propylene glycol

That's all we asked for. I feel much better now! Thank you Capellas, LorAnn's, and Perfumer's Apprentice for doing the right thing with this chemical. My whole issue with diacetyl was if there was even a small risk why wasn't it simply removed. These vendors have done it already. Glad to see it.
 
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Travis798

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Nov 7, 2009
378
29
44
Oklahoma
Have all the people calling for removal or even disclosure of diacetyl not took one moment to google diacetyl substitutes? If they had, they would see that it is believed the substitutes, likely used by those flavor makes that "don't use diacetyl" are now suspected of being just as harmful as diacetyl. If you are honestly worried about your health, you will stop worrying about diacetyl alone and stay away from anything with butter flavorings, or probably the safest bet, do away with all flavorings and just vape unflavored juice. That probably still isn't "healthy" for you, but I'm sure it's better than inhaling flavorings not mean to be inhaled.
 
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