Authentic makers sueing Cloners?

[Davey59]

If you invest your money you know very well that buying a $30 clone of a $150-300 device is a bad investment.

To buy an item that will most certainly never appreciate in value, is a choice that shows lack of future oriented planning.

Authentic devices tend to retain a high percentage of their original value or actually appreciate in value.

In the case of clones or counterfeit devices, they depreciate rapidly to the point where they are more valuable as scrap metal than anything else.

My intentions are not relevant to anything, I'm simply pointing out the basic flaws of clone proponent logic.

Maurice

I think your math needs a little tweaking. A 30 dollar tube and switch may not have much or any resale value but it is only 30 dollars. A 150 to 300 dollar tube and switch does not have to take much of a resale hit to completely pay for a couple of clones. I think the reality is with most any of these mods your probably going to lose at least half the original price.

I will not claim a universal negative as to resale but I think one would be pretty foolish to buy either one and count on any value appreciation.

 

[skoony]

If you invest your money you know very well that buying a $30 clone of a $150-300 device is a bad investment.

To buy an item that will most certainly never appreciate in value, is a choice that shows lack of future oriented planning.

Authentic devices tend to retain a high percentage of their original value or actually appreciate in value.

In the case of clones or counterfeit devices, they depreciate rapidly to the point where they are more valuable as scrap metal than anything else.

My intentions are not relevant to anything, I'm simply pointing out the basic flaws of clone proponent logic.

Clones cost less so I'm saving money, false logic, and ultimately untrue. Depreciation is very real, and leads to a very true saying "I'm not rich enough to buy cheap things", its a harsh truth.

There are plenty of folks who have ten or more clones in their mod collections, and as many atties that are clones as well. Total value maybe in the $600 range when new, about the same as an exceptional authentic rig or a couple very nice rigs.

Frivolous purchases are those that have a low or no chance of returning on your investment. Costume jewelry for example, a total waste of money for the ladies out there, I'm not saying buy gold and diamonds, silver is not expensive but it will appreciate in value just the same as gold and diamonds.

Fake stuff is fake, aside from the ethical issues, fake stuff is a waste of money.

Your not investing well, if your investing at all.

Maurice

hi Maurice,
right now there seems to be a premium on used mods.
that is because this is a new and emerging market.

5 years down the road,(if the roads still here) there will be that many more on the market.
i suspect as with any other consumer good the price of used equipment will be hard pressed
to retain 1/3 of its retail value even if like new.
there will be exceptions of course but, those wont be the rule.

regards
mike

 

[bluecat]

Not a good example, automatic copyright protections are VERY widely used to protect works. Most of what's online is protected that way, anything periodical, newspapers, magazines, TV newscasts, etc.

If two parties claim the same. It goes to the courts. If there is the disagreement, it goes to court. If you are official registered as the owner, you have a much better chance in prevailing than if you don't. Also will be less expensive and you may not even go to court.

Current one now is the Alan Thicke and Marvin Gaye battle. IP battles are tough.

 

[ddkl7780]

Why outsource any US made product?? Outsource= less jobs for ppl here When you support small business the money goes back to the community.

 

[Davey59]

Why outsource any US made product?? Outsource= less jobs for ppl here When you support small business the money goes back to the community.

Because in many cases the next guy over will and you will soon be out of business. The way it is set up now it is almost like it was planned to leave you no choice.

Not disagreeing with you at all but the problem is with the way our government handles trade issues. The pathetic part is that is one of the only legitimate duties it has.

 

[dr g]

If two parties claim the same. It goes to the courts. If there is the disagreement, it goes to court. If you are official registered as the owner, you have a much better chance in prevailing than if you don't. Also will be less expensive and you may not even go to court.

Current one now is the Alan Thicke and Marvin Gaye battle. IP battles are tough.

Right but that doesn't mean registration is necessary nor that you can't claim ownership of IP without registration.
Let's not lose sight of what this line of discussion is about -- the idea that if a company did not file for registration then their IP warrants no respect.
That view is 100% false and wrong.

 

[bluecat]

Right but that doesn't mean registration is necessary nor that you can't claim ownership of IP without registration.
Let's not lose sight of what this line of discussion is about -- the idea that if a company did not file for registration then their IP warrants no respect.
That view is 100% false and wrong.

Okay I guess I can man up to that. But is not practical.

This is how difficult they are.

Heirs of Superman artist fail to reclaim copyright (Wired UK)

 

[dr g]

Okay I guess I can man up to that. But is not practical.

This is how difficult they are.

Heirs of Superman artist fail to reclaim copyright (Wired UK)

You are citing anecdotes of very specific nature, very high-profile, very large amounts of money at stake. Of course all parties will fight tooth and nail. For every copyright suit that goes to court there are many other exercises of copyrights that never make it yet protect the IP just the same. It can be something as small as getting a youtube video pulled.

Practicality of enforcement does matter, that's why the industry is so rife with counterfeiting activity. But that will eventually be attacked (it's starting to happen) and most likely largely quashed, to the subsequent benefit of smaller companies that would not have the capital to lead legal charges themselves.

 

[Jman8]

What you have to remember (as far as mechanical mods go at least) is that it's JUST a freaking metal tube with a button at the bottom to make a connection. Nothing special, nothing innovative, and nothing that should command a price over $30.00

Why even a price of $30?

Again, I am non-mod user in this discussion. $1 would be too much IMO. I understand many will pay upwards of $400 for these metal tubes with a button. I'm okay with that. But, given the nuances of this discussion, I would think $1 would be fair price. And given the right type of distributor, why not freely give away products that intentionally imitate product design and/or logo design? What would be wrong with that from the pro-clone perspective? If the logos are not copyright registered, what could possibly be the argument against 1:1 copy of a product that copies literally everything about the original? And then what could possibly be wrong with distributor who decides to charge nothing after making those copies? Legitimate companies do give aways often, so giving product away freely (that is 1:1 copies) would seem like the fairest price to the consumer. Charging $30 for a freaking metal tube with a button strikes me as someone is getting a little greedy.

On similar tangent, why would anyone take issue with a person that goes to warehouse where these products are being distributed from, and drives out with a truckload of that product, and then freely gives it away to whoever wants. Letting the receivers of the product know upfront, that the distributor (of free stuff) got this from warehouse. I mean, I guess we could call it theft, but if the person isn't charging money upon distribution and the receivers of the free goods were not deceived in the process, then isn't this just a case of original distributor being greedy? I know, I know, many here will argue that some legal/moral ground was crossed in this scenario, but let's pretend that whatever warehouse and product protection items that a 'legitimate' business likely has in place, this original company didn't do. Left the door unlocked to the warehouse and neglected to fill out necessary forms for typical productions, or lapsed in payments to those who offer such protections. Then, it's all okay, right? Or took it from a company in Jamaica, but is distributed to people in Zimbabwe where the laws are different.

 

[bluecat]

You are citing anecdotes of very specific nature, very high-profile, very large amounts of money at stake. Of course all parties will fight tooth and nail. For every copyright suit that goes to court there are many other exercises of copyrights that never make it yet protect the IP just the same. It can be something as small as getting a youtube video pulled.

Practicality of enforcement does matter, that's why the industry is so rife with counterfeiting activity. But that will eventually be attacked (it's starting to happen) and most likely largely quashed, to the subsequent benefit of smaller companies that would not have the capital to lead legal charges themselves.

True but those aren't easily linked to on the internet for demonstration purposes.


That's fine when it gets attacked or when the suits start popping up. For those that play buy the rules they should be rewarded. Interesting thing, I believe a clone or two was sold prior to the authentic hitting the market. Wonder who gets the copyright/trademark and or patent?

In saving you the typing of "proving it" I can't because I don't remember which..

 

[SpyderBite]

Why outsource any US made product?? Outsource= less jobs for ppl here When you support small business the money goes back to the community.

Because there are no US workers willing to work for $1.75/day. Pay a manufacturing worker union wages of say $15-$35/hour and your profit goes right down drain. Also, the work ethic is not the same here in the US. Most of the workers in China say at Foxconn work in 48-72 hour shifts alternating with other shifts working just as long to produce iphones and other electronics. You'll never get enough US workers together in one factory to work those kind of hours. In fact, the government and unions wouldn't let them even if they wanted to.

All this "keep the jobs in America" is fine. But we can't expect to compete with the pricing of manufactured goods out of China.

 

[Circa Survivor]

Because there are no US workers willing to work for $1.75/day. Pay a manufacturing worker union wages of say $15-$35/hour and your profit goes right down drain. Also, the work ethic is not the same here in the US. Most of the workers in China say at Foxconn work in 48-72 hour shifts alternating with other shifts working just as long to produce iphones and other electronics. You'll never get enough US workers together in one factory to work those kind of hours. In fact, the government and unions wouldn't let them even if they wanted to.

All this "keep the jobs in America" is fine. But we can't expect to compete with the pricing of manufactured goods out of China.

Agreed. I'd love to keep all the jobs in the U.S. But eventually everyone will want more pay and less work.

 

[zahzoo]

If you invest your money you know very well that buying a $30 clone of a $150-300 device is a bad investment.

To buy an item that will most certainly never appreciate in value, is a choice that shows lack of future oriented planning.

Authentic devices tend to retain a high percentage of their original value or actually appreciate in value.

In the case of clones or counterfeit devices, they depreciate rapidly to the point where they are more valuable as scrap metal than anything else.

My intentions are not relevant to anything, I'm simply pointing out the basic flaws of clone proponent logic.

Clones cost less so I'm saving money, false logic, and ultimately untrue. Depreciation is very real, and leads to a very true saying "I'm not rich enough to buy cheap things", its a harsh truth.

There are plenty of folks who have ten or more clones in their mod collections, and as many atties that are clones as well. Total value maybe in the $600 range when new, about the same as an exceptional authentic rig or a couple very nice rigs.

Frivolous purchases are those that have a low or no chance of returning on your investment. Costume jewelry for example, a total waste of money for the ladies out there, I'm not saying buy gold and diamonds, silver is not expensive but it will appreciate in value just the same as gold and diamonds.

Fake stuff is fake, aside from the ethical issues, fake stuff is a waste of money.

Your not investing well, if your investing at all.

Maurice

I think you mean well... but your assumptions and examples really don't apply to these consumer goods. Other than a very limited, few custom built items... nothing that has been discussed here will appreciate in value...ever... no matter how long you hold it.

Two factors... First... brass, copper, stainless steel no matter what shape or size is not a precious metal and once used... remains used. Unless melted in a foundry most of this stuff can not be re-purposed as it sits today.

Second and more importantly... the market... in general, the items we're talking about did not exist 2 years ago. Given the rapid pace of product development and evolution most of the products today will be obsolete and undesirable 2 years from now. Just a minor shift in battery technology away from cylindrical 18650 sizes will render 90% of the mod market scrap metal.

If you want to talk investing wisely... this is a poor market for any long term outlook or return. Your $250 authentic mechanical mod purchase today may well be joining your top of the line DVD player at the local recycling center in a couple of years...

Oh and jewelry is one of the worst investments one can make... even with the rise in gold market values. The retail markup is so high that you rarely can recoup the initial investment even if you retained it 50 years. Diamonds are even worse... there is virtually little to no resale market for used diamonds. Consult with the many people who've tried unloading a wedding ring to help pay off their divorce. That shiny, sparkly $3500 diamond ring that melted the little princess's heart... might net you $600 if you're lucky enough to find a pawn shop that'll buy it.

 

[Midniteoyl]

What you have to remember (as far as mechanical mods go at least) is that it's JUST a freaking metal tube with a button at the bottom to make a connection. Nothing special, nothing innovative, and nothing that should command a price over $30.00

If you're willing to pay $200-$500 for some fancy engraving then that's your business...but please remember in the end...it's a metal tube.


Now..if you are talking about VV/VW mods then I can see a slightly more expensive cost but...all of these chips are made in China...so the "authentic" mod makers are using the exact same chip and electronics as the "clones".

The only real difference I have seen are fit and finish. That's not to say it's not worth it to pay a bit more, but come on...seriously....it's still just a box/tube with a button and a chinese chip inside to regulate the voltage/wattage. Again...nothing special that should command huge money.

People need to remember that PV's are pretty much disposable at this point. If you get one and it lasts you a year you're way ahead of the game. A mechanical...well it should really last forever as long as you don't smash it.

The DNA boards are made in the US by Evolve...

 

[dr g]

Because there are no US workers willing to work for $1.75/day. Pay a manufacturing worker union wages of say $15-$35/hour and your profit goes right down drain. Also, the work ethic is not the same here in the US. Most of the workers in China say at Foxconn work in 48-72 hour shifts alternating with other shifts working just as long to produce iphones and other electronics. You'll never get enough US workers together in one factory to work those kind of hours. In fact, the government and unions wouldn't let them even if they wanted to.

All this "keep the jobs in America" is fine. But we can't expect to compete with the pricing of manufactured goods out of China.

Two words: TRADE POLICY!

Agreed. I'd love to keep all the jobs in the U.S. But eventually everyone will want more pay and less work.

The dirty secret is they can actually have it. It's all about policy, including the aforementioned trade policy. There's more money in this economy than ever, the problem is it's not going to the workers.

That's fine when it gets attacked or when the suits start popping up. For those that play buy the rules they should be rewarded. Interesting thing, I believe a clone or two was sold prior to the authentic hitting the market. Wonder who gets the copyright/trademark and or patent?

... is that even possible??

 

[wheelie]

Consult with the many people who've tried unloading a wedding ring to help pay off their divorce. That shiny, sparkly $3500 diamond ring that melted the little princess's heart... might net you $600 if you're lucky enough to find a pawn shop that'll buy it.

LMAO! Funniest thing I read in days yet so true.

 

[cmangoboogie]

so i read on vapingwithtwisted420's facebook that the authentic manufacturers are going to go after china and any other clone manufacturers/retailers to stop them from cloning so they can continue to charge an obscene amount.

generally the comments say how multi-billion dollar companies like Rolex and Nike ext haven't been able to stop china clones. but these butthurt ...... think they are gonna make a difference legally instead of doing things like outsourcing to china's factory's and getting the product made cheaper with just as good if not better quality and in turn make it pointless to buy a clone over an authentic. Beyondvape wised up and is doing this.

here's twisted's Stingray X clone vs authentic video and they both have the same voltage drop but the clone has a little more detail.
[MODERATED video out due to language]

you can get 10 feet of copper pipe for around $20, you can buy top caps and fire buttons for about $10 each, a tube threader is about $80 or you can walk into any machine shop and they will probably thread it for you for free. so for the investment of $80 on a tube threader you can make "Authentic" mods for about $25 each yet these manufacturers/retailers charge $150 - $500 depending on where and what you get and most of the time you get put on a wait list.

i thought the whole point of vaping was to have a better alternative than smoking while also sticking it to big tobacco? well i guess its time to start calling these authentic manufacturers "Big Authentic" even though they have nowhere near the clout they think they do lol.

its 100% obvious these authentic makers were never in it to save lives or help anybody only to line their own pockets.

im starting my new job next week and my first purchase was going to be an authentic and had a few choices in mind but after reading all that, ain't gonna happen, they want to be greedy twits then im sticking with clones.

heres a link to Twisted420's facebook if you want to check it out
[MODERATED due to language on pages]

if this rant offended anyone i do apologize, unless your an authentic maker in which case GOOD! hope you get[Moderated] by your lawyers who know its a losing battle and just want your money, hope you lose everything!

Im thinking the same thing as you. What battery are you planning on running with your Stingray X ? I've seen so Many options idk which to go with... 20 a , 30 a , think saw a 35 a too. I currently run a. Evic Supreme with a Nautilus Aspire or a kayfun clone that I build to between .8-1.2 ohm
Wanting to have a nice little Stingray to switch between 18650 n 18350 . Following Twisteds links and was thinking on grabbing up the Orchid with the Stingray, replace my Kayfun clone and just rock the Stingray for rebuildables. Hopefully even get my Stillare dripper working, without feeling like I'm drinking juice YUK!
Suggestions a spot can order the newest Orchid, a Stingray and some batteries all from one seller? Links suggestions ?? Thanks ECF

Picture of today's #vapemail got a T sleeve for the mini Aspire and a hollowed out cage style for the big guy .. loving the way they look and still glass inside unlike the previous metal hollow tank/sleeve that was available for the Aspire , I felt all my juice have an awkward taste.

 

[Midniteoyl]

i have seen the video. what laws where broken?
regards
mike

Harassment, for one.

Its generally defined as a course of conduct which annoys, threatens, intimidates, alarms, or puts a person in fear of their safety. Harassment is unwanted, unwelcomed and uninvited behavior that demeans, threatens or offends the victim and results in a hostile environment for the victim. Harassing behavior may include, but is not limited to, epithets, derogatory comments or slurs and lewd propositions, assault, impeding or blocking movement, offensive touching or any physical interference with normal work or movement, and visual insults, such as derogatory posters or cartoons

Harassment Law & Legal Definition

 

[Midniteoyl]

But... But... It's only a block of milled aluminum, a switch, 510 connector, bottle, and tubing. Shouldn't cost over $30.00 to make.

Funny how one's sense of value changes when it's something you're personally interested in..

I've said it before, what you are willing to pay is based on your perceived value of the item. What I am willing to pay and what you are willing to pay is and will be different in most cases based on our different perspectives.

 

[Midniteoyl]

If you think you can just walk into a machine shop and get them to do anythng for free, you're sadly mistaken friend Most shops are about $100/hr for shop time.

For one off, yes.. However, these are paid by the piece. More pieces equal less price...