Authentic makers sueing Cloners?

[sky4it]

Just so yah know:

there are two kinds of patents Design and Utility. The strongest are utility patents. Its practically impossible to get a utility patent on a mod, because they already exist. Design patents are easily defeated by making minor adjustments in the "DESIGN". IMO when it comes to design patents and mods you have the most obvious problem, which is most Mods look like Mods.<<< Design wise.

The upshod is therefore, lawsuits well they can still happen, are not going to be effective. And cloners will rule the day.

Its oldest most stale argument in manufacturing its been around for eons. aka "were the original were better buy American" and it sounds great, the problem is your fighting the law of supply and demand. Its like gravity. If consumers can buy an equivalent at a lower price, the vast majority will.

Then there is the argument that it will cause stagnant creativity in the market. No it wont. Those that speak French always will speak French. The proof, there are new looking mods coming out all the time.

To you authentic mod makers I am not trying to be cruel to you either. Its just the reality of the situation. Still, there is a small market for expensive authentic originals, just like some people like crystal plates, and silver studded steering wheels. That too always will exist, barring an FDA meltdown.

 

[Circa Survivor]

This is why I love China. They don't have the labor laws like we do so they can crank out the mods and attys and sell them darn cheap. Makes me happy

 

[caged]

There is a reason all of the "clones" are from China.

The Russians say hi.

 

[HauntedMyst]

This is why I love China. They don't have the labor laws like we do so they can crank out the mods and attys and sell them darn cheap. Makes me happy

Agreed! And it's not just cheap mods and attys, think about all the other stuff we get cheap! Nearly everything! You know how they say "He who dies with the most toys wins"? Well my friend, we are the winning generations! We have more stuff than any other time in history! We have so much stuff, we need to rent storage spaces to put our extra stuff in. How awesome is that? Can you imagine what it will be like when even more countries than China realize if they can make it cheaper than we can, we will buy it, even if for no other reason than just to own it? We win!

 

[Davey59]

"we win!"

Only in the short term. We are all going to lose in the long run. Well,,,, China will not.

Basically we in the US have a corrupt, inept and self serving government that could not write a decent trade agreement to save their souls, probably because they already sold them.

 

[Ed_C]

.....and what's hypocritical, is that we point to our labor laws and environmental laws and say look at us, while we have all our stuff made in China or third-world countries that don't have those protections.

But that's a big can of worms that's really outside of the topic at hand.

 

[Circa Survivor]

Agreed! And it's not just cheap mods and attys, think about all the other stuff we get cheap! Nearly everything! You know how they say "He who dies with the most toys wins"? Well my friend, we are the winning generations! We have more stuff than any other time in history! We have so much stuff, we need to rent storage spaces to put our extra stuff in. How awesome is that? Can you imagine what it will be like when even more countries than China realize if they can make it cheaper than we can, we will buy it, even if for no other reason than just to own it? We win!

Exactly! Finally, someone who gets it

 

[bluecat]

Exactly! Finally, someone who gets it

Too bad the USA doesn't get it. Funny eh?

 

[caged]

I would love to buy originals, but there is no way I'm going to spend $200 for a device that should cost maybe $60 (and lets be honest, most of the times it's nearly impossible to get your hands on an original anyway). I don't think anybody is losing sales due to the clones that are available.

 

[skoony]

hi all,
a lot of good discussion in this thread.

my opinion is we are going to see a lot more legal action in the future.
not only are there rumors floating around about certain entities having
patents that would jam up the whole works even without any FDA chicanery,
we have to face the fact that as the industry matures it will also bring more and more
business acumen into the picture.

sad to say that means real business men and woman are entering the market.

i can see why patents and copyright are hard to enforce, trademarks on the other
hand are very enforceable.
Rolex can't sue someone that makes a watch that looks like theirs but,they most certainly
go after them if the Rolex crown is on them.

on the other hand i could produce cars if i wanted and,no one can go after me for putting
wheels on them. however if i put the Audi circle trademark on them i could understand why so many people
in suits would be out to get me.

regards\
mike

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Without a patent (and really copyrighted) it can be legally copied, specific or not.

Legally right and morally right are two very different things.

As has been stated in many posts on this topic, China does not recognize out of country patent protection (a US patent only offers protection in the US anyway), copyright, trademark, or intellectual property rights, anyhow; thus seeking those protections is generally a waste of time, money (lots and lots of money), and effort.

So assuming a Caravela was patented, mind you there are only what 1000 of them, you might need to add around $20 per country if you decide you want your Caravela patent to be recognized everywhere in the world. That's 195 countries at $20,000 per patent divided amongst the 1000 Caravela mods, so the price just jumps up to +$3,900 for patent protection per Caravela.

An investment of 3.9 million dollars would be needed to get this world wide patent.

A mod maker is certainly not going to make enough mods to reduce the per mod patent cost to anything reasonable, let's say $5 that would take 780,000 mods, that market hardly exists even now. 10,000 is maybe reasonable, but that hikes the additional cost per mod to $390 for patent fees alone. There aren't 10,000 of any original authentic mods in existence that I know of. Maybe, but I'm not sure.

People who gripe about paying $39 for a tube and switch type mod aren't going to pay 10 times that plus cost ofaterials and a markup to cover profit and operating costs.

Protection from cloning, copying, mimicking, is simply prohibitive in this market.

It boils down to legally right and morally right.

I prefer to stand in the morally right group, I can afford to do so, it is a concept I enjoy supporting when I can.

I am not proud of those who stand on the side that justify clones as legally right, but I respect their position. It is a valid argument.

I liken clones to gold plated engagement rings set with cubic zirconia, just because it works does not remove the fact that it's forever fake. That says something about the person, take that for what it's worth ... as much as a clone I presume.

Maurice

 

[Circa Survivor]

Legally right and morally right are two very different things.

As has been stated in many posts on this topic, China does not recognize out of country patent protection (a US patent only offers protection in the US anyway), copyright, trademark, or intellectual property rights, anyhow; thus seeking those protections is generally a waste of time, money (lots and lots of money), and effort.

So assuming a Caravela was patented, mind you there are only what 1000 of them, you might need to add around $20 per country if you decide you want your Caravela patent to be recognized everywhere in the world. That's 195 countries at $20,000 per patent divided amongst the 1000 Caravela mods, so the price just jumps up to +$3,900 for patent protection per Caravela.

An investment of 3.9 million dollars would be needed to get this world wide patent.

A mod maker is certainly not going to make enough mods to reduce the per mod patent cost to anything reasonable, let's say $5 that would take 780,000 mods, that market hardly exists even now. 10,000 is maybe reasonable, but that hikes the additional cost per mod to $390 for patent fees alone. There aren't 10,000 of any original authentic mods in existence that I know of. Maybe, but I'm not sure.

People who gripe about paying $39 for a tube and switch type mod aren't going to pay 10 times that plus cost ofaterials and a markup to cover profit and operating costs.

Protection from cloning, copying, mimicking, is simply prohibitive in this market.

It boils down to legally right and morally right.

I prefer to stand in the morally right group, I can afford to do so, it is a concept I enjoy supporting when I can.

I am not proud of those who stand on the side that justify clones as legally right, but I respect their position. It is a valid argument.

I liken clones to gold plated engagement rings set with cubic zirconia, just because it works does not remove the fact that it's forever fake. That says something about the person, take that for what it's worth ... as much as a clone I presume.

Maurice

Reminds me of that video at ECC with those guys giving ijoy "papers" and he was wearing a "Clones support Terrorism" shirt. These people are ridiculous. Makes me want to not even associate myself with vaping.

 

[bluecat]

I prefer to stand in the morally right group,

Maurice

I hope you stay in the "morally right part" in everything you do in life. Picking what you decide is morally right is well ......

" liken clones to gold plated engagement rings set with cubic zirconia, just because it works does not remove the fact that it's forever fake. That says something about the person, take that for what it's worth ... as much as a clone I presume."

Really? just really now.

 

[zahzoo]

I'm still lost on just who is actually getting a patent, or filling for one, for any mod? Evolve did their chip, but just who did a mod?

I don't believe any manufacturer/machine shop has filed for a patent for any mechanical mod... If they did I doubt it would be successful. Patents are generally granted to the inventor of a new product. Since mechanical mods are just modified flashlight battery tubes... nothing new has been "invented". The tubes, the switches, and the threaded connectors were all invented many years ago... in some cases nearly 100 years ago. In the case of Evolve they invented the chip and patented it's design... That patent just protects the chip not the application of it's usage.

Trademarks are a unique name or logo that identifies a company or product. These can be registered and protected under Intellectual Property law. For example, if whoever originally came up with the name Kayfun had registered it as a Trademark... they could enforce their rights. I have no idea if they did so... I'd doubt it though.

Copyrights generally tend to apply to written or published materials. In this realm... certain artistic designs etched into the bodies of mechanical mods may be copyrighted. But they must be unique and a creation of the original artist.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

I hope you stay in the "morally right part" in everything you do in life. Picking what you decide is morally right is well ......

I try.

I doubt anyone is perfect especially when viewed from another unique prospective.

Morals are unique to individuals and groups of people, like that or not it is fact.

Maurice

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Reminds me of that video at ECC with those guys giving ijoy "papers" and he was wearing a "Clones support Terrorism" shirt. These people are ridiculous. Makes me want to not even associate myself with vaping.

If you have a moral conflict you have a moral conflict. How you react to that conflict is entirely up to you. I don't like the association that because I vape with people who vape where smoking isn't allowed that I may as well.

Sometimes it comes down to the lesser of two evils.

I could give up vaping and remove that association, or continue and live with the negative image that has been formed in peoples minds.

My position is a personal stance, not one that I feel must apply to anyone but myself.

Everyone should do what they feel is right for them. If that's buying a clone, go for it, if that vaping in the grocery, go for it, my opinion shouldn't alter that in the slightest.

Maurice

 

[Circa Survivor]

If you have a moral conflict you have a moral conflict. How you react to that conflict is entirely up to you. I don't like the association that because I vape with people who vape where smoking isn't allowed that I may as well.

Sometimes it comes down to the lesser of two evils.

I could give up vaping and remove that association, or continue and live with the negative image that has been formed in peoples minds.

My position is a personal stance, not one that I feel must apply to anyone but myself.

Everyone should do what they feel is right for them. If that's buying a clone, go for it, if that vaping in the grocery, go for it, my opinion shouldn't alter that in the slightest.

Maurice

Of course, no one's opinion would affect my thinking, unless they were very persuasive... If you know what I mean ;p I'm going to buy clones attys/mods as long as they keep making them. Just ordered me a Big Dripper clone, cause there's no way in hell I'd pay $100 and some dollars.

 

[Midniteoyl]

I don't believe any manufacturer/machine shop has filed for a patent for any mechanical mod... If they did I doubt it would be successful. Patents are generally granted to the inventor of a new product. Since mechanical mods are just modified flashlight battery tubes... nothing new has been "invented". The tubes, the switches, and the threaded connectors were all invented many years ago... in some cases nearly 100 years ago. In the case of Evolve they invented the chip and patented it's design... That patent just protects the chip not the application of it's usage.

Trademarks are a unique name or logo that identifies a company or product. These can be registered and protected under Intellectual Property law. For example, if whoever originally came up with the name Kayfun had registered it as a Trademark... they could enforce their rights. I have no idea if they did so... I'd doubt it though.

Copyrights generally tend to apply to written or published materials. In this realm... certain artistic designs etched into the bodies of mechanical mods may be copyrighted. But they must be unique and a creation of the original artist.

Agreed...


I was being sarcastic in my question

 

[bluecat]

I try.

I doubt anyone is perfect especially when viewed from another unique prospective.

Morals are unique to individuals and groups of people, like that or not it is fact.

Maurice

Absolutely. I do not disagree.


At the pearly gates, I guess when I suggest that I purchased only authentics and not clones then that would weigh more towards my acceptance in. But then again, that is just me.

Considering we have a Global Business structure in the world today. Heck 30 years ago I was studying global business strategies in college. Also have successfully transferred a manufacturing plant to Mexico. It sucked, but after Worker's Compensation and fake disability claims it had to be done. We would have went out of business if we did not transfer as we could not afford the policies anymore. Courts always sided with the injured even after we showed picture of them playing pick up football. There's some morals for you..

What did we have on our products.... We had trademark/copyrights. Every business has them. If a business decides to forgo them in favor of $ then that is their right. However it does make me mad when we who play by the rules have to fork over $ from our pocket and others whine that the shouldn't have to pay up. If they feel they can play by different rules, then I have no pity for them. Some more morals....

Kudos to evolve for getting their patent.

 

[AzPlumber]

I don't believe any manufacturer/machine shop has filed for a patent for any mechanical mod... If they did I doubt it would be successful. Patents are generally granted to the inventor of a new product. Since mechanical mods are just modified flashlight battery tubes... nothing new has been "invented". The tubes, the switches, and the threaded connectors were all invented many years ago... in some cases nearly 100 years ago. In the case of Evolve they invented the chip and patented it's design... That patent just protects the chip not the application of it's usage.

Actually there is a patent on the modern electronic cigarette. And it can easily be argued that all these mechanical tube mods are based on the intellectual property of that patent holder.

Trademarks are a unique name or logo that identifies a company or product. These can be registered and protected under Intellectual Property law. For example, if whoever originally came up with the name Kayfun had registered it as a Trademark... they could enforce their rights. I have no idea if they did so... I'd doubt it though.

Copyrights generally tend to apply to written or published materials. In this realm... certain artistic designs etched into the bodies of mechanical mods may be copyrighted. But they must be unique and a creation of the original artist.

This is the best explanation yet and what i eluded to early in the thread. Unless you apply for and receive protection under the law you don't stand a chance.