Authentic makers sueing Cloners?
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Yes thank you Retird for posting the costs on making a Hobby DNA30 mod. $85 in materials and five hours of labor for a total of a very reasonable $135 for a prototype home build of a mod with $62 of electronic parts. You honestly under valued labor and R&D I would suggest your prototype has a fair prototype value of $250-$400 of actual costs incurred, and again this would depend on your relationship with an outside vendor. I have seen some unethical companies charge as high as $500-$1000 for a similar skill level prototype build, to naive individuals.
Frankly, I would like to see you provide the costs to justify how expensive it is to produce in America. We have a competing product that is marketed for profit in clones. Automobiles produced in differing nations cost very similar to American produced vehicles. Heck the yihi sx350 ($70) a Chinese chip runs $20 more than the American DNA30 ($50). So where, oh where is your proof that it costs so much more to produce in America?
Not sure if this was directed at me. However, I can assure you my "conjecture of costs" and quality of manufacturing were good enough for Honda, Ford, the US Military, and numerous other companies to utilize the parts I produced/supervised, and/or coded/qouted. This was while I worked at either a Tier 1 or Tier 2 supplier. I do not give exact dollars on specific mod builds as I would have to actually see blueprints, get quotes on materials, and produce sample code to determine actual cost estimates. Then there is the question of what machines to produce this part on: Swiss turn lathe, Screw machine lathe, CNC turret lathe, Horizontal mill, Vertical Mill, 5th axis mill, or even a basic tube threader. I could go on and on, but here is a video of a Swiss turn Lathe machine which is the style that would be my first choice for many intricate high dollar mods (it is a little small at 20mm diameter part size, but is a cool video). Notice the complexity and time it took to produce this complex tube in less than 4 minutes out of what appears to be billet brass.
Link discussing machine time costs on a dedicated CNC forum
CNC Swiss Screw Machines > Rates per hour swiss cnc?
So why am I here? I take issue with people saying how "expensive" it is to manufacture products in America. This sentiment essentially led to me moving out of the manufacturing field. I hated the negative sentiment, and the fact that my company underpaid my subordinates based off this myth. The last company I worked for was very aggressive. I enjoyed prototype work, and reverse engineering parts it was one of my many specialties, and I do miss some aspects of the field. We posted 15-20% annual growth from 2005-2012 in the AMERICAN manufacturing field. I do not have information on recent years, but if their quality and productivity has remained I would not be surprised if it continued. I hate misinformation spreading around the internet.
The cost savings on manufacturing in China with similar materials would be at the unbelievably very best $50 on any mod that is produced in quantity, this assumes an EFFICIENT and COMPETENT machine shop. To me saying that America is expensive to produce parts is an insult. The cost savings many companies achieve by moving production to China is unbelievably low. I am talking like 10% savings. Some American companies have mothballed entire factories and are waiting for Chinese costs to rise, and will then bring the work back to America. I hope to see this day in my lifetime, and misinformation does not help consumer sentiment. People accept Chinese made products, because of the myth of expensive American labor.
Frankly, I would like to see you provide the costs to justify how expensive it is to produce in America. We have a competing product that is marketed for profit in clones. Automobiles produced in differing nations cost very similar to American produced vehicles. Heck the yihi sx350 ($70) a Chinese chip runs $20 more than the American DNA30 ($50). So where, oh where is your proof that it costs so much more to produce in America?
Not sure if this was directed at me. However, I can assure you my "conjecture of costs" and quality of manufacturing were good enough for Honda, Ford, the US Military, and numerous other companies to utilize the parts I produced/supervised, and/or coded/qouted. This was while I worked at either a Tier 1 or Tier 2 supplier. I do not give exact dollars on specific mod builds as I would have to actually see blueprints, get quotes on materials, and produce sample code to determine actual cost estimates. Then there is the question of what machines to produce this part on: Swiss turn lathe, Screw machine lathe, CNC turret lathe, Horizontal mill, Vertical Mill, 5th axis mill, or even a basic tube threader. I could go on and on, but here is a video of a Swiss turn Lathe machine which is the style that would be my first choice for many intricate high dollar mods (it is a little small at 20mm diameter part size, but is a cool video). Notice the complexity and time it took to produce this complex tube in less than 4 minutes out of what appears to be billet brass.
Link discussing machine time costs on a dedicated CNC forum
CNC Swiss Screw Machines > Rates per hour swiss cnc?
So why am I here? I take issue with people saying how "expensive" it is to manufacture products in America. This sentiment essentially led to me moving out of the manufacturing field. I hated the negative sentiment, and the fact that my company underpaid my subordinates based off this myth. The last company I worked for was very aggressive. I enjoyed prototype work, and reverse engineering parts it was one of my many specialties, and I do miss some aspects of the field. We posted 15-20% annual growth from 2005-2012 in the AMERICAN manufacturing field. I do not have information on recent years, but if their quality and productivity has remained I would not be surprised if it continued. I hate misinformation spreading around the internet.
The cost savings on manufacturing in China with similar materials would be at the unbelievably very best $50 on any mod that is produced in quantity, this assumes an EFFICIENT and COMPETENT machine shop. To me saying that America is expensive to produce parts is an insult. The cost savings many companies achieve by moving production to China is unbelievably low. I am talking like 10% savings. Some American companies have mothballed entire factories and are waiting for Chinese costs to rise, and will then bring the work back to America. I hope to see this day in my lifetime, and misinformation does not help consumer sentiment. People accept Chinese made products, because of the myth of expensive American labor.
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My point stands. Paying retail for components in a manufacturing environment=doing it wrong. Making a few mods as a hobby with no intent to sell is in no way a 1:1 comparison, and is not a valid point in this debate.
The quantity breaks don't change the picture significantly. Hobby building is also generous as far as the time and compensation for time aspects; paying an employee to assemble raises that part of the equation massively.
Jimbo not going to bite on this I have been dragged into your conjecture to many times we will have to agree to disagree. I am glad this debate is up for all to read and I am confident that people reading this are armed with facts from one side and opinions from another and can decide for themselves.
Sorry you dont like the argument, but you seem to be .....ing about something you know nothing about. If it's so cheap and simple, where's your product? Why arent you rich? You obviously know about the market, you obviously have ideas on how to do it.
I wish it was only just the lathe costs and milling costs. Generally speaking there's a "set-up" fee to start any job. I've been quoted as low as about $300 and as high as about $1000 depending on the shop and the job.
The machining is also hugely dependant on the materials being used. I've seen some harder/exotics be more than quadruple what you're suggesting more especially if there's tight tolerances.
It still doesnt change the fact that you have to buy materials first. Oh, you want 1,000 of these, yeah that's going to be $1,000+ in material first. Not sure where you are, but last I checked, $1,000 isnt just lying around in my bank account. Oh, you're upset that I cant make more than 1,000 items at a time to keep in stock? Yeah, I'd love to do that, but I cant get the $15,000-$20,000 together for materials alone, then get the $300-$1000 setup fee, then something in the neighborhood of $5-$20 per unit to get that finished. Keeping in mind that most mods arent just a single piece being machined.
Yeah, I've looked into it a few times for a few different products. Yeah, once you're making 10,000 or more, that stuff gets cheaper per unit, but you still have to have money up front to finish the job before you can sell anything. It get's even cheaper if you can do a run of 1,000,000. But 1,000,000 pennies is still $100,000.
First, I get what you are saying. Most Mod makers are like me, they have a unique skill set that allows for free development costs. Then add in access to cheap or free machine time in the garage or at workplace. At both of my last shops I could have come in and utilized everything for free during down-time periods if I wanted, including our stock tooling, just buy my own material. As long as it was a personal project, and not undercutting their business they did not care. The owners probably would have been fine with me making mods, and selling them to start-up my own business. Eventually after a few runs I would need to start paying shop rate, of course. I just was there so damn much, I never wanted to spend any free-time at the shops. Also, that was several years ago and stupid in hindsight for me not to utilize the ability. 6-7 days a week and 60-80+ hours will do that to you though.
Have you checked out the manufacturing quoting websites? A lot of the shops quoting are hungry for work, some may possibly run a sample run of 20-100 parts if hungry enough. The important thing is to get contacts with companies that have experience with your choice of material (my suggestion is Brass/Copper as that is popular and cheaper to machine then most exotics). Spend some time getting passionate about machining and make contacts, then quotes should be realistic (see below). I understand there are other costs involved to making a quality piece and start-up costs. Tooling does cost money. Most shops build in expected reject/rework rates into their prices, and deburring or cosmetic finishes will cost extra or is easy to do on brass/copper yourself. However, those costs add up to a small percentage of the overall mod cost. Using your example of $2,000 in start-up costs ($1,000 for material and $1,000 for tooling) with a 12pc per hour (large underestimate for most brass mods on Swiss turn) at $120/hr for brass or copper (easy to machine) your total for 300 pieces is $5,000 which is basically $20 per custom tube and this is honestly high for most mods. Tack on another $30 for miscellaneous parts and packaging per mod and you are at $50 for actual out of pocket costs. Sell the mods for $200 on a limited first run release. Release them weekly in small batches to cover your $30 per mod extra expenses, and start-up costs can be kept to under $6,000 plus legal expenses to setup a limited liability company. Screw insurance, take the company bankrupt if sued by an idiot. Why do you think there are exclusive lists, this is to cover the mod makers personal liability at a minimum cost. This will yield $60,000 subtract costs of $15,000 plus legal expenses and there is $40,000+ a healthy approximate 300% profit. There is your working capital to make a 1,000 piece order.
Obviously, this business model is for those that have engineering/designing or extensive machining experience. Material selection, understanding tolerances, and real blue-prints are a minimum requirement to get a "serious" quote in this business. Otherwise, yes you are correct it will probably be much closer to $20,000-$30,000 to start-up, as you would be depending on your hand being held which is not cheap or without substantial risk financially to shops. Machine shops can smell newbies in the air and will eat them alive. Newbies waste a lot of time with dreams, and unrealistic expectations. Shops know when they are quoting a Newbie, and that this will probably be the only job they see from them. They need to make good money from day one on these types of jobs.
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I have shared more than enough knowledge on this topic, and do not want to ruffle any more feathers from my past profession. Do mod makers make money? Yes! Is it as easy as buying a tube threader and selling a copper pipe for $200? Heck No! I hope you have read my posts and are realizing that I have been telling a tale of a person that could be a high-end mod maker, if they choose. Guess what? It is more hassle/risk than it is worth to me, and I could be a one man team from product development to finished good. Honestly, if you are not in the manufacturing industry at the level I have been talking about, you probably should just buy a clone, or realize that the original mod maker is making good, but not obscene money. Put down whatever you are "vaping", and step away from the dreams of buying a tube threader and some copper tubing, and becoming a millionaire over night. The ceiling is set high to enter the American manufacturing business without prior knowledge.
If the mod maker has the skill set I have, and a few others that I know. They probably have been in the business for several decades, or worked 6-7 days a week 60-80 hours for at least a decade. Just so you could buy a major product from the slave driving company they worked for. They have worked harder than most people can comprehend, and are doing this as a passion or hobby. I am disappointed that many do not seem to have the business acumen to put together a brand worthwhile, and charge a reasonable price for authentic American made mods. That is all, I apologize if I have upset any mod makers. However, come on guys, this is a $2 billion industry ripe for the taking. Please, get your act together and reinvest your profits faster than you have been. Big tobacco and China are going to take decent jobs, and money from of our fellow Americans.
As I said from the get go, I will probably only buy authentic mods (atomizers are a different story).
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Thanks for posting this. Before you said all this, I bought into the myth of expensive American labor, but you make a compelling argument for why that is not really the issue. It still seems like the popular perception at work, and that popular perception seems to be what guides the debate. But your information has me re-thinking a few things. Much appreciated.
It does seem similar to me, though for sure not the same, as to what occurred with music industry. Sharing/copying music became so easy that the old model where record companies ruled became obsolete, perceived as too expensive for reasonably priced consumer consumption. Yet, that has lead to an industry that appears to lack direction and stinks at promotion. Not saying the old way was ideal, but I do think it better than what we have now, even while what we have now contains remnants of what we once had. Anyway, that topic does seem related, but also has a whole lot of sub-tangents that are probably unrelated. But at the core of both issues is the perception of greedy corporate types making a killing off the talent and consumers desiring cheapest means to obtain what appears to be exact same product.
Jman8 and HgA1C, awesome points. And when I quoted my prices in an earlier post, that was for local shops, here in AZ. If you're not doing a huge run, it becomes even more expensive to go to China to do things, because now you have shipping and logistics. Chineese manufacturing is only extremely popular for the super large companies where a 2% change allows them to be profitable. I know more than my fair share of people in electronics that have repeatedly gotten frustrated with thier companies decision to produce in China. All for a measly 3% savings. And that savings changes dramatically based on oil prices. China isnt dramatically cheaper, it's slightly cheaper.
Sarcasm. HEAVY sarcasm. Wow - you need a sense of humor, man.
In case you missed it, I put the little "laughy face" at the end. That usually denotes a joke, or something said in a joking manner. Or sarcasm. Meant to be funny funny ha ha.
My bad bud.
Was in late night multiple quote response mode after reading ~15 pages of this thread because I don't get on here daily/as much as I'd like due to busy work/life schedule. Thinking was difficult. And somewhat tunnel-visioned.So, 38 pages later, have there actually been any lawsuits yet?
I mean real, honest to goodness lawsuits, with papers filed and served properly, not just some dudes at a trade show acting like they are serving papers?
I mean real, honest to goodness lawsuits, with papers filed and served properly, not just some dudes at a trade show acting like they are serving papers?
Suing faceless PRC companies who have the backing of the PRC government is futile- even for companies with massive resources- like Apple or Samsung...
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The behavior of those dudes at the show was childish and unnacceptable, and it is highly unlikely that any lawsuits will ever have any success. However it does not change the negative effect the clones have on the industry. This of course is my opinion and is in no way meant to be disrespectful of anyone's opinion.
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