Authentic makers sueing Cloners?

[ItTechy]

What's all this talk about Clowns!

Clowns never bothered anyone!

Personally I love Clowns!

EMILY! EMILY! That's CLONES...not Clowns....

Oh NEVER MIND......

 

[retird]

Funny I keep reading posts upon posts about the excessive profits made by US companies but none of the posts give verifiable facts, figures, related business costs, and company names with actual profit margins.. Seems like only conjecture instead of factual, valid proof. Also there is an absence of what the clone profit margin is too. A debate without substance is an exercise in futility.

Somebody please show the facts..... please...... it would really provide some meaning to this thread...

 

[Topwater Elvis]

Why muddy up an incredibly silly 'e' fight with facts.

 

[fridgemagnet]

Good luck trying to get profit figures from the Chinese - or should I say - real, as in genuine, profit figures.

 

[HgA1C]

Funny I keep reading posts upon posts about the excessive profits made by US companies but none of the posts give verifiable facts, figures, related business costs, and company names with actual profit margins.. Seems like only conjecture instead of factual, valid proof. Also there is an absence of what the clone profit margin is too. A debate without substance is an exercise in futility.

Somebody please show the facts..... please...... it would really provide some meaning to this thread...

I can't guess on actual profit as many things besides manufacturing costs need to be factored into a final price. In addition, that is proprietary information for any privately held corporation.

I can estimate actual manufacturing costs as that was my business for many years. I gave manufacturing facts in dollars per hour rates, material costs are readily available online and vary wildly depending on relationships with suppliers.

As I said earlier, I will continue to support authentics as long as they have a reasonable markup The Chinese operate on razor thin margins. This leads to cutting corners on quality.

 

[smokinGAVIN]

You will also have to factor in the costs of overhead, marketing and the profit margins of the resellers if they don't sell it themselves.

 

[samcm010]

You will also have to factor in the costs of overhead, marketing and the profit margins of the resellers if they don't sell it themselves.

And the cost to borrow the initial capital.. the list goes on and on.

 

[dr g]

Funny I keep reading posts upon posts about the excessive profits made by US companies but none of the posts give verifiable facts, figures, related business costs, and company names with actual profit margins.. Seems like only conjecture instead of factual, valid proof. Also there is an absence of what the clone profit margin is too. A debate without substance is an exercise in futility.

Somebody please show the facts..... please...... it would really provide some meaning to this thread...

Well you've built DNA mods so you can say something about this from experience. IME a DNA mod in the $200-250 range clears less than 100% profit.

 

[Jman8]

Look i dont expect you to understand my view or respect it, but the fact remains that i dont care. I will keep buying clones, and there is nothing anybody can do about it. Not only that but i'll continue recommending good clones to others, and if theres ever an original really beautiful and innovative, i may buy it and send to China so the masses who otherwise wouldn't be able to can enjoy it. And nobody can do a thing about it.

Heres a fun fact though, i bet the cloners have kept more people off cigs then original makers, me for 1 and no, points don't go to them for coming up with the original idea as they never intended to supply to the market segments that cloners do in the first place

I wanna take you up on this bet. If for no other reason than to disprove the notion of "I don't care." That part is always humorous, especially in a 400 word post.

 

[HgA1C]

Well you've built DNA mods so you can say something about this from experience. IME a DNA mod in the $200-250 range clears less than 100% profit.

I would agree with you unless we are talking about a model that sells thousands of units per manufacturing run. That is why a good quality American Mech should range from $100-$250 because most of the money is in materials and metal work, and not electronics or their assembly. A $250 mechanical is over double the price for a good quality unit made of copper, brass, or stainless. Anything over $250 and you start talking about "exclusive" pricing. In cars a $100 mech would be the equivalent of a $25,000 car, and $250 would be similar to a $70,000 car. Vaping used to be a niche product. It has gone mainstream at a value of over $2 billion a year. I feel no sympathy for people that do not understand this market. The market is ripe for mass produced high quality American made mechanical brand priced at $40-$60, $70-$100, $120-$150, and $170-$200 the first maker that truly understands this synergistic approach, and starts manufacturing to these price points will become very rich. The mod needs to be designed to a price point with quality and price in mind. That is why Provape and REO have been successful. They did not compromise quality, and then marketed it at the right price point.

As far as The ultra exclusive mods like the Glas. They are utilizing the exclusive model. They know exactly what they are doing, and probably are not that concerned with clones. I applaud them for using an intelligent business model. I have not sat down and analyzed a Glas mod, but from the looks of the pictures it has substantially higher quality parts and machining then most other mechanical mods. I would be completely guessing on cost, if I gave a concrete number, but I have a feeling it would cost north of $100 to produce a mod like theirs if he farmed the machining to an outside company. These mods are about skill and precision, and recouping the profit by producing them in house with no labor costs; they are artisan so to speak. There is a reason everyone does not drive cloned Lamborghini, Ferrari, or Porsche cars. Their quality cannot easily be replicated cheaper than what it costs them, and no one would settle for a POS clone. I have done precision machined tolerance parts, I am talking +0/-.002mm work. This stuff requires skill above all else then knowledge of material, knowledge of tooling, knowledge of machining, high quality machines, high quality measurement equipment, ample time, and temperature stabilization or scrap rates will be very high like 50-100+%. Precision machining is quite tedious, but is enjoyed by those that have a sense of pride in their work.

 

[retird]

Well you've built DNA mods so you can say something about this from experience. IME a DNA mod in the $200-250 range clears less than 100% profit.

Well, one of the mods I make (only a hobby and I sell none) are not made of stainless and I buy the parts at retail and modify the enclosures by hand with hand tools which is time consuming. I like to think they are quality as none have failed. The design took alot of trial and error to get to the final product. Many peeps asked for them but there is more to it than just making and selling them. Product liability was really the main reason I never sold any. Even though you have a great device there is a necessity to insure yourself against the possibility (however slight) of actual/perceived damages by some who will claim it is a defective or poorly designed device when it may only be user error ( such as defective or worn out batteries or dead shorts caused by the user) but you will still have to go through the legal aspects anyway. The raw cost for my mod parts is just a tad over 80 buck. Add a few bucks for wire, solder, etc. and then about 5 hours labor and you can easily see how the costs go. That doesn't even include having a B&M shop with all the equipment, nor employee costs, taxes, insurance, social security, unemployment , employee benefits, and etc. Bottom line .....it will remain a hobby...

I could add more but you can see it is not just simply making a tube and reaping a huge profit....

So, as an example: say 85 bucks in parts, 5 hours labor @ 10 bucks an hour, That's 135 bucks.... add 30% profit..... that's 175 bucks or so....now add all the other cost, some were listed above, and what will the final total be (with only a 30% profit)? Sure one could buy parts wholesale but the cost savings on parts won't offset the other costs of a full blown business with all the additional costs (mentioned above).

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[samcm010]

Thank you for posting good info facts rather than conjecture on the costs of making a mod.

 

[jimbodaddy74]

You missed the main qualifier. He buys the parts at RETAIL. There is a HUGE difference in cost at that point. So his facts do not qualify in a discussion of any scale of manufacturing.

 

[samcm010]

You missed the main qualifier. He buys the parts at RETAIL. There is a HUGE difference in cost at that point. So his facts do not qualify in a discussion of any scale of manufacturing.

Ok lets cut the cost in half and anyone that knows anything about wholesale in today's world knows it is no longer half of retail the cost is still far more than so many have argued mods cost to make. As is also pointed out so many costs that for profit modders incur are not included in these calculations. The post still gives a relevant factual cost structure to use as a frame of reference.

 

[jimbodaddy74]

Ok lets cut the cost in half and anyone that knows anything about wholesale in today's world knows it is no longer half of retail the cost is still far more than so many have argued mods cost to make. As is also pointed out so many costs that for profit modders incur are not included in these calculations. The post still gives a relevant factual cost structure to use as a frame of reference.

No it doesn't. And just because you said it is doesn't make it so. It is apples/oranges.

 

[samcm010]

Ok well the nice thing is people have the information to decide for themselves.

 

[retird]

You missed the main qualifier. He buys the parts at RETAIL. There is a HUGE difference in cost at that point. So his facts do not qualify in a discussion of any scale of manufacturing.

And how much of a HUGE difference is it? If you know, how much can I save in parts by buying wholesale? Give me some facts....,.

And I'll give you a hint....no need to go over the whole parts list....

The main electronic component cost (at retail) 50 bucks (of the 80+ total parts cost).... I can buy in quantities of 100 at about 40 bucks.....

The enclosure cost 99 cents.... in quantity of 100 about 70 cents....

 

[jimbodaddy74]

Ok well the nice thing is people have the information to decide for themselves.

Misleading information isn't really information someone would want to pay attention to. Paying retail for components to build a one off mod is in no way indicative of the cost of producing 1000 mods.

 

[jimbodaddy74]

And how much of a HUGE difference is it? If you know, how much can I save in parts by buying wholesale? Give me some facts....,.

And I'll give you a hint....no need to go over the whole parts list....

The main electronic component cost (at retail) 50 bucks (of the 80+ total parts cost).... I can buy in quantities of 100 at about 40 bucks.....

The enclosure cost 99 cents.... in quantity of 100 about 70 cents....

If paying retail, you buy 100 at 40 apiece, see what the cost is for 1000 from multiple sources bidding to get your business. If you're paying retail for 100 units, you're doing it wrong.

 

[retird]

If paying retail, you buy 100 at 40 apiece, see what the cost is for 1000 from multiple sources bidding to get your business. If you're paying retail for 100 units, you're doing it wrong.

Again you are talking only from conjecture, not facts.... fact is that the electronics I am using are protected by a utility patent in the US....and the quantity price is what I gave....multiple source bidding is not an option....

I must say that your suggestion that I'm doing it wrong is not based on anything except opinion....which is erroneous in my opinion...but it is your opinion....I've laid out my facts and you have laid out your conjecture so the readers can form their own opinion....