Authentic makers sueing Cloners?

[Midniteoyl]

Oh boy, a clone debate.... Didn't see that one coming, lol. Seems like all we talk about these days.

What I wanna see is a smart designer from the US or Europe come up with a nice design and then work with a China manufacturer to make them. Then, have the China manufacturer send all the unites back to the designer where he (or she) has a team of people run some QA checks on each unite... Some unites will be bunk for whatever reason, those will then no be distributed. The ones that pass QA will be boxed up and sold.

This would insure an original design with minimal to no defects. I think we could get the cost of a mod at around $50 this way and the cost of an atty around $35. Sure, China will clone the thing... But I know myself and a lot of other people would not by the clone since the original is so cheap.

It's like the mutation x atomizer, it was designed in America but made in China. It's a really good rda for $25. Yea, you can get the clone for 10-15 bucks, but who the hell would by the clone when the real deal is 10 bucks more.

If you can't beat them, joint them. Make a sick design and have China make it to insure a low end cost.... But do some QA on the end by the designers hands. This will insure the user will get a good original non clone product. Your bound to have %30 of them come out as junk, but with a QA test run before they get sent out you'll insure a near %100 accuracy.

You could even make the exact same design in the US with a slightly different logo for the vapers that refuse to support China in anyway. So your company would be able to supply solid US made mods, and quality China made ones. You'd tap into both markets. The potential to make lots of money and make lots of people happy at the same time is there. Take advantage someone, it's like an untapped gold mind idea here just waiting be put into play.

Mark my words.... This will happen soon. I'm not the only one thinking about this. I just don't have a resources.

:: sent from android with tapatalk ::

Oh, are you talking about Beyond Vapes??

 

[Midniteoyl]

Bad idea, you'll get charged high enough for the company to both make money off of you and to still undercut your MSRP down the road.

If you can QA your batch of devices and get them to the market prior to the company selling their clones I would be impressed.

Maurice

Oh, you mean Beyond Vapes??

 

[zahzoo]

Exactly ... Unlike some collectables such as certain antique guns, these overpriced 'boutique' mechanical tube mods that are in 'limited production' today, are going to have a very limited resale value in the future.

In 4-5 years, you will be lucky to get 20 bucks for that limited production / pristine condition $250 tube mod which was made by an 'artisan' somewhere in Europe.

I can envision 4-5 years from now walking up to a garage/yard sale and seeing the corner of a table with 20 beautiful polished, shiny mechanical mods glistening in the sun. Some poor guy trying to recoup his $2000 investment and lucky to sell a single one for $10-20...

 

[Circa Survivor]

I'm one of those people that has to tack on sales and use tax to the price of things, it's pretty sad that 6% (our sales and use tax) is higher than my profit margin of 5%



There are plenty of times where people report "I just binned the (insert your favorite cloned device)", other times they love them to death. Not every authentic is pristine in form and function, but then a clone of a junk authentic is going to have the same issues.

I would think it goes without saying a quality bit of authentic gear is something that can both be admired and useful beyond that of a clone. The fact that your kids and grand kids will know you have some higher moral or ethical standing is in and of itself something of a benefit to them.

Kids watch us, they learn from us, and to say to your kid don't copy your friends paper at school then turn around and vape away on a copy of an authentic is not lost on the child.

Maurice

Good lord, guy. These are just vaping devices! You are WAY too serious about this stuff.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Thats funny, because out of the 5 authentics ive bought, 3 are useless because of threading being crap or some such. And out of the 7 clones I own, I havent had an issue with any but one.

And thats my point. Using the high ethic stance is BS. People loce to spout this "you get what you pay for" crap but that isnt always the case. I spent a small fortune on authentic PoS and a fraction on clones that are still going strong. Of course my case isnt the norm in any fashion.

I, personally, am ok with spending $30 on something that may break or be useless at some point, whether that be by my own fault or faulty parts. I am NOT ok with spending $200 on something like that, and in my experience authentics do not provide enough of anything to justify their hefty price tags anymore. Its all about the money, not ethics. Ethics wont keep me off stinkies when my $200 steel tube decides to take a crap. But I can go out and get another $30 steel tube at pretty much any time.

You do realize most things do not just break of their own accord. If I break something, be it a $30 item or a $300 item, I am just as bothered with having broken it.

However if I get something not in usable condition, I tend to address the issue with whomever I got that something from. In nearly every case I have been able to work out the issue and come away feeling good about the transaction.

I don't buy into the idea that things are to be purchased with the idea that they are potentially disposable, I buy with the intent to keep things for as long as is possible.

Clones aren't exactly items that you can expect to last, you really can't send them back for service or repair should you damage them as you can with many authentic devices.

While close to the same some clones certainly are not close enough and require off sized o-rings or screws that nobody really knows where to source without buying a bunch of sizes to get the right one if those worked in the first place.

Maurice

 

[Ed_C]

Um.. Super T ~ WorkHorse Not exactly 'junk'

While no mod made in US or any other first world country will be as cheap as one made in China, Super-T has shown that a basic, but high quality mod can be sold for a reasonable price ($70). I was reading about how they did it, They simplified their design, and therefore cut down on the amount of machining that was needed, by using a design that has no bottom cap. Some pretty smart cookies over at Super-T, if you ask me.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Oh, you mean Beyond Vapes??

Sorry I don't follow you on this. Did something happen like I suggested in my quote to them, if so I find that funny.

Maurice

 

[Midniteoyl]

Sorry I don't follow you on this. Did something happen like I suggested in my quote to them, if so I find that funny.

Maurice

Ya.. to both of you that posted having stuff made in China and then QC'd here.. Beyond Vapes has part of their stuff manufactured there and part here. Same parts, just different countries doing the machining. You cannot tell one from the other. They QC everything here and sale mods fairly cheap.. Like under $100 cheap. Completely original. And, they havent been cloned yet despite having China do some of the work.

So ya, Beyond Vapes answered both of you

 

[Heldar]

You do realize most things do not just break of their own accord. If I break something, be it a $30 item or a $300 item, I am just as bothered with having broken it.

However if I get something not in usable condition, I tend to address the issue with whomever I got that something from. In nearly every case I have been able to work out the issue and come away feeling good about the transaction.

I don't buy into the idea that things are to be purchased with the idea that they are potentially disposable, I buy with the intent to keep things for as long as is possible.

Clones aren't exactly items that you can expect to last, you really can't send them back for service or repair should you damage them as you can with many authentic devices.

While close to the same some clones certainly are not close enough and require off sized o-rings or screws that nobody really knows where to source without buying a bunch of sizes to get the right one if those worked in the first place.

Maurice

Thats my entire point, sort of. Clones can be expected to last just as much as authentics, assuming care is taken for the item. Steel is steel. Doesn't matter if it was made in China for $30 of in the U.S. for $200. If a fancy logo is enough for you to spend that much, then rock on dude. I dont think its enough, and never will be.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Have proof of that? Link? And the Nemesis is not the only one that did it...

I'm sure you can ask him yourself here, or anywhere else he frequents, maybe here? I'm not sure I've never looked, or just send him a quick email.

You'll find he has publicly stated that the Anne Stokes (sp) death angel is used with permission and the steam train logos used are the Atmomixani registered logos.

Maurice

 

[Midniteoyl]

I'm sure you can ask him yourself here, or anywhere else he frequents, maybe here? I'm not sure I've never looked, or just send him a quick email.

You'll find he has publicly stated that the Anne Stokes (sp) death angel is used with permission and the steam train logos used are the Atmomixani registered logos.

Maurice

As far as I can tell, no ones ever got a clear answer...

 

[Kendogalopigus]

If the clone makers have the machinery and the know how, why don't they just create thier own brand and still sell it cheap instead copying others? All they have to do is alter the design a little and they are legally free from any patents. The basic principles are the same.

Infinite did this with the stingray x clone, if you look close at the cutouts of the stingray logo the clone has more detail within the cutout where the authentic is just flat copper inside the cutout.

edit: i realize the stingray logo was still copied, was just pointing out how some little change can be the difference.

 

[Kendogalopigus]

Oh boy, a clone debate.... Didn't see that one coming, lol. Seems like all we talk about these days.

What I wanna see is a smart designer from the US or Europe come up with a nice design and then work with a China manufacturer to make them. Then, have the China manufacturer send all the unites back to the designer where he (or she) has a team of people run some QA checks on each unite... Some unites will be bunk for whatever reason, those will then no be distributed. The ones that pass QA will be boxed up and sold.

This would insure an original design with minimal to no defects. I think we could get the cost of a mod at around $50 this way and the cost of an atty around $35. Sure, China will clone the thing... But I know myself and a lot of other people would not by the clone since the original is so cheap.

It's like the mutation x atomizer, it was designed in America but made in China. It's a really good RDA for $25. Yea, you can get the clone for 10-15 bucks, but who the hell would by the clone when the real deal is 10 bucks more.

If you can't beat them, joint them. Make a sick design and have China make it to insure a low end cost.... But do some QA on the end by the designers hands. This will insure the user will get a good original non clone product. Your bound to have %30 of them come out as junk, but with a QA test run before they get sent out you'll insure a near %100 accuracy.

You could even make the exact same design in the US with a slightly different logo for the vapers that refuse to support China in anyway. So your company would be able to supply solid US made mods, and quality China made ones. You'd tap into both markets. The potential to make lots of money and make lots of people happy at the same time is there. Take advantage someone, it's like an untapped gold mind idea here just waiting be put into play.

Mark my words.... This will happen soon. I'm not the only one thinking about this. I just don't have a resources.

:: sent from android with tapatalk ::

Beyondvape did this and im thinking of buying the Beacon mod when i start my new job in october, just today i bought the CLT RDA by Infinite and its awesome, was $43.39 with tax and that is totally reasonable to me, but i would not have payed $90 for a stillare when i got the clone at my local shop for $36 and change and functions just like the original.

 

[Kendogalopigus]

thought i would add a couple things and sorry for the off topic parts

so as i posted already in a reply i have bought my very first authentic dripper the CLT by Infinite and i do have to say i love it, but, it was only $43.39 out the door, some people may consider this still to be too much but imo thats an awesome price for an authentic RDA with a center block design, a pretty deep juice well and all the other thing people like such as the heat sink fins in the top cap, or the milled negative posts and the rounded inner top cap.

i do still like my stillare clone but will probably use it less cause it doesn't have the center block which makes it a lot easier doing dual and quad coil builds, but if someone set down a stillare authentic and clone in front of me i would still buy the clone cause its $40ish (at my local shop) vs $90+ online.

here's the off topic part, i didn't believe all the hype i was hearing about RDA's with rounded inner top caps being sooooo much better for flavor, but omg it truly is! anyone else who may have been doubting it like i was, just go get an RDA with a rounded inner top cap, authentic or clone you will love the flavor out of it.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Thats my entire point, sort of. Clones can be expected to last just as much as authentics, assuming care is taken for the item. Steel is steel. Doesn't matter if it was made in China for $30 of in the U.S. for $200. If a fancy logo is enough for you to spend that much, then rock on dude. I dont think its enough, and never will be.

Except steel is not a thing that you'll find of equal quality at an equal price point.

When an authentic is made of 316 or 304 or 321 or some particular stainless alloy and your clone is a random melt alloy of who knows what.

I have a knife set that I think I purchased some 20 years ago that has pretty low quality stainless steel, one of the knives has an inclusion flaw in the blade so bad that I started putting money aside years ago to replace it when that knife finally breaks. Knives should last for generations, not 20 some odd years.

My point is that steel is not steel, steel has quality values and different alloys. Does it matter in the case of your $30 atty or $30 mod, that depends on what you expect from the things you buy.

In very general terms you may well be correct, a generic stainless steel atty may well serve you just fine for as long you live, or it may not. That isn't so much the point of what I was saying.

More to the point, if some day authentic circa 2014 mods are sold at $10 it can be assumed the counterpart clone would be valueless in terms of resale.

I'm quite sure the logo alone is not what makes most buy authentic, but that logo is what makes clone makers make clones and what makes clone buyers buy them.

If the design and logo didn't matter at all, you would not spend the money on a clone either, you would spend less and vape on a DIY rig that does exactly the same thing.

These are just elaborate battery holders as is so often pointed out. I prise craftsmanship, I really enjoy interesting design features, and I do value the simple aesthetic. All of that plus functionality factors into what I buy, and more importantly who I give my money to. I pay the person who brought the things I like into this world, not the thief who stole it and has it for sale cheaper.

For a very interesting way to observe how this works, the next time you eat out and get really good service don't tip, but take a dollar and give it to another staff member that had nothing to do with the fine service you received. Tell them your service was great, but you would rather save a few dollars and give your money to someone who didn't do the work. Then stand back and watch for the reaction.

That's what pro authentic people want to avoid, that's what we see when people buy clones. That's what makes us sick.

Maurice

 

[Ed_C]

Maurice, stop thinking about this. You're way over thinking it. How many people do you think would take the trouble and time to make a DIY mod to save 10 bucks. Really now.

 

[Gummy Bare]

Beyondvape did this and im thinking of buying the Beacon mod when i start my new job in october, just today i bought the CLT RDA by Infinite and its awesome, was $43.39 with tax and that is totally reasonable to me, but i would not have payed $90 for a stillare when i got the clone at my local shop for $36 and change and functions just like the original.

Yea, there are a few that have done it. Beyond being the one I know of with the most product done like this. Their hybrid dripper is the only one that would interest me at all though. There's a vape shop in socal that carried a nice mech mod for like $80 I believe it was. Was nice and clean, had a reccesed button, and so on. It was designed by a group in socal as well and outsourced to China, but touched US hands again before going out to the vapers. It wasn't a clone, and also never got cloned.

I guess I should have said in my post that it has been done before.... I just feel it should be done a lot more.

:: sent from android with tapatalk ::

 

[smokinGAVIN]

Just a few points...

1. Steel is not steel, It's a big business here in the Philippines to sell junk metals in bulk to china. Examples of which are old and even sunken ships and even
old pipes from demolished houses..
2. If you understand the time, effort and even money spent on R&D, there is a chance that you might find it in your hearts to buy the real thing.
3. If you are unethical enough to clone, you may be unethical enough to skimp on quality materials and forgo a few steps in quality control in lieu of profit.

 

[quest]

Just read this entire thread. Other threads on this subject have been out there for a while too. Only thought I will add is:

Buy authentic and your children and grandchildren will benefit in both tangible and non-tangible ways..... buy clones and they will not.....

Yep, I've researched many copyrights, trademarks, and patents on this......as have dr g and others....

And if I buy something from a different country I will support their children and grandchildren. I have no qualms about this. Brother from another mother. Sister from another mister.

 

[Gummy Bare]

Good reason never to vape brass atomizers from China.

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