Authentic makers sueing Cloners?

[Midniteoyl]

Already have, it's not there. Again, it's been addressed, but not answered. Here is golden opportunity to show me up and link to where you think it has been answered. I'm guessing you, nor anyone from pro-clone side will link to that hypothetical previous post.

Just stop, please...

 

[retird]

the only question i asked was rhetorica, "i thought the whole point of vaping was to have a better alternative than smoking while also sticking it to big tobacco? well i guess its time to start calling these authentic manufacturers "Big Authentic" even though they have nowhere near the clout they think they do lol."

i started this thread cause of the authentic makers with no legal protection are attempting to fight the cloners with the law even though they don't have a legal leg to stand on.

And who are these authentic makers you speak of?

 

[Midniteoyl]

Nope, the answer I'm looking for is consistency from pro-clone crowd. Just come out and say, there is zero issue with 1:1 copying, including logos, and all/any distinctive marks on a device as long as those marks are not trademark registered, and it is marketed as a clone.

I don't get why that would be hard to say, given the pro-clone perspective. Instead, people draw arbitrary lines and claim that copying the logo is unacceptable. Why, I might ask, or have asked, and then it is crickets chirping.

There it is.. THE answer you were looking for. No other answer is 'correct' or 'addressed the issue' except yours.

You won.. You are correct. We are thiefs and lowlifes to be looked down upon. You are God.

Happy?






And we are moving on...

 

[Midniteoyl]

Apparently my answer wasn't plain English enough for you. I cannot speak for other people who like clones, but I personally will not buy a clone that has the original manufacturers name on it. I will not by a Nemesis clone that says "Atmomixani", I will not buy a Manhattan clone that says "Amerivape". I will not buy an AR mod clone that says "TacMods". I will not buy a Hanaclone that says "Hana Modz".

Stawman, Prophet, Strawman...

 

[Midniteoyl]

I keep seeing people referring to "research" and "development". What R&D?

Do people need to research how electricity works? How threads work? How plastic insulates? There is zero research involved in making a mod. Development... well, if you don't have a lathe, that's going to be expensive because you have to buy a lathe. If not, you're talking $50 in materials and a few hours in a CAD program. It's not like you need a Ph.D. in materials science to make a mod.

Develop the switch? How difficult is that? It's a tube within a tube that's got a static insulator on one end and a spring or magnets (you know, ICP said it best "Magnets, how do they work?") and that's it. You have to research what the thread for a 510 is, I guess.

People seem to think that by buying an legit authentic you're buying a Ferrari, which is clearly not true. The increase in performance electrically is going to be essentially negligible as long as the threads are relatively tight.

Now, I don't have any problem with people paying or asking $200 for a metal tube. I might snicker behind my hand at the buyer, but who am I to say you shouldn't spend your money on what they think is worth it.

What I do have a problem with is availability. Authentic Chinese mods are junk not because of materials or manufacturing process, they're junk because of design. Look at the pbusardo review of the new Innokin 134 mech. If I could find the mod I wanted in stock (and this goes for practically all makers) I'd be a lot more likely to buy it. But instead every damned mod out there is in an ultra-limited production run. ("LOL it's on our site, and it will stay there, but it will never be back in stock.")

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: most mech mod makers are hobbyists at best. A professional looks for ways to maintain quality control while at least attempting to keep up with demand.

You know what companies are professional? ProVape. I don't like their designs, but I respect the hell out of the fact that they're run like an actual business instead of like some dude making extra money out of his basement. Evolv is also a good example. They have an actual manufacturing space. And they actually try to keep up with demand. They come out with actual new ideas.

From what I've seen authentic makers go out of their way to make sure that there is a massive disparity between demand and supply. Because if the supply was there, everyone would realize that this Nemesis or this Stingray aren't worth $200... they're worth more like $65. It's false scarcity that keeps prices up, and when that goes away (ie people with actual manufacturing capabilities getting on board) prices drop.

That's why lawsuits are coming out. The hobbyist manufacturers are terrified of losing their cash cow. They can't make anything actually technological. They can't make batteries, they can't make testers, they can't make chips, so they make threading and charge exorbitant prices because they only made 100 of them.

So I say let them sue. They can't claim patent, cause there's no way a mech is going to rise to the standard of a patentable product (one could probably argue that a flashlight patent covers the design). They might have a claim on artwork and company logo, but it seems to me that a lot of the artwork out there is already illegally used. (What is that box mod with the transformer logo on it? GLWT lawsuit guys.)

Until manufacturers get off their butts and invest some of their massive profits back into manufacturing capacity, China is going to clone, the rest of the world is going to buy, and a "lucky" few will get authentics and be able to feel superior.

Also, I challenge any professional machinist to tell me what is difficult about making any mech.

Nice..


........

 

[Midniteoyl]

Since there is no talent or xpertise involved then you should be able to make your own mod and save a ton of money.

Tsk-Tsk Bronze, you know better

 

[Kendogalopigus]

And who are these authentic makers you speak of?

i gave enough info in the OP if you would like to know that feel free to look it up, i personally don't care who they are the only authentic company i refuse to ever buy from even if they make the greatest mod in the world and sell it for $1 is Kryptonite. i believe one of the company's are Caravela but i don't remember who they are (3 i believe) and really don't care because without the legal protection they should have gotten they aren't going to do anything to stop clones of there products, i just view it as silly to waste the money they did make on a futile attempt to stop clones of their product.

edit: also the link i posted to twisteds facebook page was moderated out cause he curses, so really i cant post a link to him you have to look it up but im sure by now there are lots of places this is being talked about.

 

[Midniteoyl]

Mr. Zen, Mr. Svoemesto, and Mr. Nemesis probably made a lot of money off their work. I have a simple question. If developing a mod and selling it is so simple as some suggest...

THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU DO IT?!?!?!

Because my wife almost died. Twice. I was taking care of 2 grandchildren after they lost their parents. And now my wife is sick with the most deadly form of cancer. All in the last 4 years.

Answered? Good. Next question.

 

[Bronze]

You will not be missed

I'll miss you.

Like I miss having indigestion.

 

[retird]

i gave enough info in the OP if you would like to know that feel free to look it up, i personally don't care who they are the only authentic company i refuse to ever buy from even if they make the greatest mod in the world and sell it for $1 is Kryptonite. i believe one of the company's are Caravela but i don't remember who they are (3 i believe) and really don't care because without the legal protection they should have gotten they aren't going to do anything to stop clones of there products, i just view it as silly to waste the money they did make on a futile attempt to stop clones of their product.

THX for replying... just wondered how much research you have done...you might want to read the law suit filings by those who have legal standing via patents and trademarks...I have read them....and there are a few....

 

[tearose50]

" One thing I will say is, just because they say its a clone doesn't mean its not counterfeit. "

Thank you.

Is joker a mod? I have no clue. I am not the fanboi type. Well looked at the post and figured yes he/she is.

Anyway..

"As stated previously, it is illegal to sell counterfeit merchandise, that would even include a member here selling as well but that isn't really the reason here on ECF, not the main reason anyway. "

Doesn't state anything about discussing them....which I think was the thought behind it.

BTW

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-forum-rules/51178-forum-rules.html

I will be interested in seeing where the no clone discussion rule is.

Hmm -- Perhaps you could have looked at the list under JOker's name, that clearly shows Admin, ECF Contest Manager & ECF Store Manager, so you didn't have to guess. It doesn't take a fanboi to be able to read. His name is also printed in Red, a color reserved for some senior staff, btw.

The quote was referenced in response to the ongoing conversation, and nothing was even mentioned about it not being allowed to discuss.

Perhaps you should note the title of the thread:http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-vaping-discussion/604462-there-no-law-against-buying-fake-purses-so-why-does-ecf-not-allow-clones-6.html#post14165770

Hm, I'm not absolutely sure on this, but I seem to remember reading that the creator of REOs has someone else make the box that is a REO (the aluminum one). He designed it. He adds all the other parts. But the actual aluminum box he does not make himself in his own shop (sorry if I'm wrong about this; I thought I read this on the reosmods forum). He is constantly improving his product, adding new options & features & is very talented (have you seen the woodvilles?). And I'm fairly sure he makes a profit from his product. So then, perhaps you're being a bit too general in your statement.

I most certainly believe you are correct. Super T didn't make their's until somewhat recently, too. IHybrid surely didn't. The list goes on and on.

Apparently. Talking to the anti-clone extremists amounts to talking to a brick wall.

Extremists you say? I thought it was elitist. Both are bogus, IMHO. We're all vapers.....or at least I think so. That and the fact we signed up to be able to post is the common ground.

Face it -- there is tons of chatter on who makes the best clone -- so even the most non-extremist non-elitist gives a hoot about quality. All clones are not good buys, as all originals are not good buys. I'm sure many of you could cite examples, I know I could.

BTW, I much prefer the older term -- knock off.


I also think it's time to end this thread.

 

[Kendogalopigus]

Mr. Zen, Mr. Svoemesto, and Mr. Nemesis probably made a lot of money off their work. I have a simple question. If developing a mod and selling it is so simple as some suggest...

THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU DO IT?!?!?!

i have a friend that lives in florida with access to a lathe and CNC and all that good stuff, when i start my new job im going to send him some cash and the specs/design i want and have it stamped with #0001 and it will be the only one of its kind.

and before the anti cloners chime in if he, china, or anybody were to make a 1:1 clone of it i really would not care
1) cause im not producing them to sell and i have the only original
2) if somebody wants a mod with my absurdly unique nick name then more power to them lol
3) it would be flattering to know people wanted something i thought up

heck maybe ill sell my design to china and make a little cash and get to laugh when i see somebody with the clone and my nickname engraved into it lol.

 

[tearose50]

Opinion, on a privately ran forum....

You better check with your local police about that one, Mr. Oyl.

 

[Midniteoyl]

i have a friend that lives in florida with access to a lathe and CNC and all that good stuff, when i start my new job im going to send him some cash and the specs/design i want and have it stamped with #0001 and it will be the only one of its kind.

and before the anti cloners chime in if he, china, or anybody were to make a 1:1 clone of it i really would not care
1) cause im not producing them to sell and i have the only original
2) if somebody wants a mod with my absurdly unique nick name then more power to them lol
3) it would be flattering to know people wanted something i thought up

heck maybe ill sell my design to china and make a little cash and get to laugh when i see somebody with the clone and my nickname engraved into it lol.

If you sell your design, its not a clone

 

[Midniteoyl]

You better check with your local police about that one, Mr. Oyl.

Whats that mean? The stance against clones on here is an opinion. And this is a privately ran forum.

 

[Kendogalopigus]

If you sell your design, its not a clone

true, would my original then be the clone? mind = blown

 

[bluecat]

the only question i asked was rhetorica, "i thought the whole point of vaping was to have a better alternative than smoking while also sticking it to big tobacco? well i guess its time to start calling these authentic manufacturers "Big Authentic" even though they have nowhere near the clout they think they do lol."

i started this thread cause of the authentic makers with no legal protection are attempting to fight the cloners with the law even though they don't have a legal leg to stand on.

Agreed mate. They whst others to play by the rules even when they don't.

 

[Briangragg]

I must just be a newbie, but I really don't have much of a problem for the price of vaping and what not. I spent 1$ for greensmoke to start out, got 11 cartos with the kit and such. Then I found Apollo and have spent around 60$ for 3 eGos and the juice I've bought from other places for cheap. To me, this still adds up to being much cheaper than smoking, as I've spent maybe 80$ overall on kits and juice which will likely last until next year if I buy nothing more. That same 80$ would have gotten me about 16packs of cigarettes that would have lasted a month, maybe. Of course, I'm still a newbie as I have no idea what anyone is talking about when it comes to mods and etc. But unless I am spending more than 100$ a month on vaping like I was on cigarettes, I'm fine with the prices I've seen so far.

On the actual topic of the OP though. All the cloners would have to do really is not put an Authentic's logo on their product to avoid copyright. Authentics really can't do anything about it. On the topic of pricing, while yes, you might make the same thing for 25$, but what about labor, marketing, and profit?

 

[tearose50]

Whats that mean? The stance against clones on here is an opinion. And this is a privately ran forum.

Here's what I'm talking about --- perhaps one could call it the attorney's opinion? It is how the US law is being enforced. Joker's post about this specific ECF rule on selling counterfeits was not "just opinion".

http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/28/the-legality-of-buying-knockoffs/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

Here's the post I quoted and responded to:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...c-makers-sueing-cloners-100.html#post14216509

 

[Kendogalopigus]

I must just be a newbie, but I really don't have much of a problem for the price of vaping and what not. I spent 1$ for greensmoke to start out, got 11 cartos with the kit and such. Then I found Apollo and have spent around 60$ for 3 eGos and the juice I've bought from other places for cheap. To me, this still adds up to being much cheaper than smoking, as I've spent maybe 80$ overall on kits and juice which will likely last until next year if I buy nothing more. That same 80$ would have gotten me about 16packs of cigarettes that would have lasted a month, maybe. Of course, I'm still a newbie as I have no idea what anyone is talking about when it comes to mods and etc. But unless I am spending more than 100$ a month on vaping like I was on cigarettes, I'm fine with the prices I've seen so far.

On the actual topic of the OP though. All the cloners would have to do really is not put an Authentic's logo on their product to avoid copyright. Authentics really can't do anything about it. On the topic of pricing, while yes, you might make the same thing for 25$, but what about labor, marketing, and profit?

honestly that has been beaten to death a few times over now, but what the heck hand me my bat, lets do this dead horse.

i was factoring in just the cost of a single mod itself and when you factor in the other stuff (for mass producing) you come up with something closer to $70 per, and the fact there are quit a few authentics for $100 and less its proving that these "high end authentic" mods really aren't worth a $150+ price tag, somewhere around page 80 i linked a $340 turd that didn't even have vent holes and used brass and not gold contacts.

the other day i got my first authentic atty and went on to say how much i love the product but that it was only $43.39 with tax and it hasn't been cloned because in my opinion it's so reasonably priced there is no point to buy a clone of it.

and yea they can just stop putting the logo's on them i would be fine with that, i will continue to buy clones to try out the design and/or if i feel the authentic is not worth it's price tag, in the case of the stingray x, JDTech was not making a black one, i wanted a black one so i got a clone. the clone and authentic have the same voltage drop therefore perform the same, i did not feel this product was worth its $240 price tag and even with the authentic black one out now i still do not feel its worth the price.