Authentic makers sueing Cloners?

[bluecat]

Hmm -- Perhaps you could have looked at the list under JOker's name, that clearly shows Admin, ECF Contest Manager & ECF Store Manager, so you didn't have to guess. It doesn't take a fanboi to be able to read. His name is also printed in Red, a color reserved for some senior staff, btw.

The quote was referenced in response to the ongoing conversation, and nothing was even mentioned about it not being allowed to discuss.

Perhaps you should note the title of the thread:http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-vaping-discussion/604462-there-no-law-against-buying-fake-purses-so-why-does-ecf-not-allow-clones-6.html#post14165770[/URL

Please reread my post. You have it quoted. I stated I read the post figured admin. Maybe not the best words but I am not an Internet warrior. I read it after I posted.

I read parts of the thread. Not sure what it has to do with this thread. The are not allowed to be sold as I have stated on this site. I agree with that as I have stated before.

Maybe I missed the gist of the post I replied to. I have done that in the past.


As midnite alluded too. It is the personal opinion of the site. While I may not agree with it. I respect it and abide by it. As this is a great resource for vapers. If they do not allow discussions of clones I am not aware of it and will be corrected. Then make my choices accordingly.

 

[Briangragg]

honestly that has been beaten to death a few times over now, but what the heck hand me my bat, lets do this dead horse.

i was factoring in just the cost of a single mod itself and when you factor in the other stuff (for mass producing) you come up with something closer to $70 per, and the fact there are quit a few authentics for $100 and less its proving that these "high end authentic" mods really aren't worth a $150+ price tag, somewhere around page 80 i linked a $340 turd that didn't even have vent holes and used brass and not gold contacts.

the other day i got my first authentic atty and went on to say how much i love the product but that it was only $43.39 with tax and it hasn't been cloned because in my opinion it's so reasonably priced there is no point to buy a clone of it.

and yea they can just stop putting the logo's on them i would be fine with that, i will continue to buy clones to try out the design and/or if i feel the authentic is not worth it's price tag, in the case of the stingray x, JDTech was not making a black one, i wanted a black one so i got a clone. the clone and authentic have the same voltage drop therefore perform the same, i did not feel this product was worth its $240 price tag and even with the authentic black one out now i still do not feel its worth the price.

Sorry that the topic had been covered, I'm bored. I don't think Authentics have the real room to charge that much (in reference to 340$ and 240$) because the market is still fairly young and there hasn't been time for any one brand to be the "nike" or what not of the vaping world. I think that while a lot goes into production and pricing, unless a brand has been established, there should be no 300$ so on anything. I will likely buy a clone guilt free because I'm cheap and the same materials are used so there's really no justification for paying for overpriced stuff.

 

[Kendogalopigus]

Sorry that the topic had been covered, I'm bored. I don't think Authentics have the real room to charge that much (in reference to 340$ and 240$) because the market is still fairly young and there hasn't been time for any one brand to be the "nike" or what not of the vaping world. I think that while a lot goes into production and pricing, unless a brand has been established, there should be no 300$ so on anything. I will likely buy a clone guilt free because I'm cheap and the same materials are used so there's really no justification for paying for overpriced stuff.

there are authentics that cheap. beyond vape has the beacon for $65 and infinite has the CLT atty for $40 full authentic setup for $105.

there are other mods for below $100 too that have been linked several times over, only one i can remember the name of was the colonial by mad industries and thats only cause im thinking of getting one lol.

 

[Briangragg]

there are authentics that cheap. beyond vape has the beacon for $65 and infinite has the CLT atty for $40 full authentic setup for $105.

there are other mods for below $100 too that have been linked several times over, only one i can remember the name of was the colonial by mad industries and thats only cause im thinking of getting one lol.

Thanks for the heads up, as I said, still a newbie. I think I'll remain a newbie for a while since I'm lazy (lol).

 

[Ed_C]

In all fairness to the pricing issue, all of the $100 or less mods are single tubes and many, but certainly not all, of the more expensive mods come with three tubes or, at least, extensions. While this may not account for $100+ more, I think in fairness you should compare apples with apples.

 

[Kendogalopigus]

In all fairness to the pricing issue, all of the $100 or less mods are single tubes and many, but certainly not all, of the more expensive mods come with three tubes or, at least, extensions. While this may not account for $100+ more, I think in fairness you should compare apples with apples.

the beacon is a 5 piece telescopic i believe, and is $65.

 

[tearose50]

Please reread my post. You have it quoted. I stated I read the post figured admin. Maybe not the best words but I am not an Internet warrior. I read it after I posted.

I was merely letting you know that it is easy to see who is a moderator or ECF personnel, no matter how new or old a poster is. It is pretty clearly indicated under the name of the poster over their Avi.

I read parts of the thread. Not sure what it has to do with this thread. The are not allowed to be sold as I have stated on this site. I agree with that as I have stated before.

Maybe I missed the gist of the post I replied to. I have done that in the past.

No worries. I was referring to the sentence which mentioned no rules about discussion on the subject. As I hadn't seen any such discussion, I could have missed the gist of the post, too.


As midnite alluded too. It is the personal opinion of the site. While I may not agree with it. I respect it and abide by it. As this is a great resource for vapers.

On the last paragraph, I very much disagree. Google "is it legal to buy a counterfeit" and find out. It may not be enforced much etc. but I'm sure we've all heard stories where it has been, even if not in the vaping community to date. I don't think calling a CZ in a Tiffany setting a clone would clear someone of the crime.

My problem, I know so little about differentiating many originals and clones I could have a counterfeit and not even know it. But, I bought it, WHEW, not sold it .

It could even be one reason savy B&M's are selling more originals these days even if they buy their personal clones from overseas. Just guessing.

 

[Coldrake]

I keep seeing people referring to "research" and "development". What R&D?

Do people need to research how electricity works? How threads work? How plastic insulates? There is zero research involved in making a mod. Development... well, if you don't have a lathe, that's going to be expensive because you have to buy a lathe. If not, you're talking $50 in materials and a few hours in a CAD program. It's not like you need a Ph.D. in materials science to make a mod.

Develop the switch? How difficult is that? It's a tube within a tube that's got a static insulator on one end and a spring or magnets (you know, ICP said it best "Magnets, how do they work?") and that's it. You have to research what the thread for a 510 is, I guess.

...snip...

What I do have a problem with is availability. Authentic Chinese mods are junk not because of materials or manufacturing process, they're junk because of design.

Maybe they should do some more R&D.......

I call it a 1:1 clone if it's being sold as one. Counterfeit is made and sold in exact imitation of something with the intention to deceive or defraud.

Ever heard of non deceptive counterfeiting?

"Piracy: or non deceptive counterfeiting is when the counterfeit product’s intention is not to deceive the consumer, but on the contrary the consumer is aware that the product he or she is buying is pirated. In this case the consumer is the collaborator of the counterfeiters.

It is non-deceptive counterfeiting that is the focus of this study, perhaps more accurately called piracy, i.e. accurate and deliberate copying of branded goods, but not sold with the intention of attempting to deceive the customer. The deception involved is on the side of the consumer who chooses to buy these goods."

Both trademark and copyright exist effectively automatically.

NO THEY DON'T ! ! !

That's "OPEN SOURCE".

They are NOT open source. Open source is something completely different and has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

Both trademark and copyright exist effectively automatically.

Not true! I would suggest that you do some research or post supporting documentation. Both require registration.

But when all else fails just make stuff up.

Mark411, I would suggest that you should do some research. Neither require registration.

Here's the real 411 and the supporting documentation,

Copyright

"In all countries where the Berne Convention standards apply, copyright is automatic, and need not be obtained through official registration with any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape, or a computer file), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights."

"In 1989 the United States enacted the Berne Convention Implementation Act, amending the 1976 Copyright Act to conform to most of the provisions of the Berne Convention. As a result, the use of copyright notices has become optional to claim copyright, because the Berne Convention makes copyright automatic."


"(2) The minimum standards of protection relate to the works and rights to be protected, and to the duration of protection:

(a) As to works, protection must include "every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever the mode or form of its expression" (Article 2(1) of the Convention)."

"registration of a work with the Copyright Office is not a precondition for protection"

Copyright - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Berne Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WIPO-Administered Treaties
Treaties and Contracting Parties: Berne Convention
Copyright | Wex Legal Dictionary / Encyclopedia | LII / Legal Information Institute

Trademarks

You only have to use it in order for them to become a trademark.

Trademark Basics
""Is federal registration of my trademark reqired?" The quick answer is "No." But it will enhance your rights."

"The United States, Canada and other countries also recognize common law trademark rights, which means action can be taken to protect an unregistered trademark if it is in use."

"The law considers a trademark to be a form of property. Proprietary rights in relation to a trademark may be established through actual use in the marketplace"

"Two basic requirements must be met for a mark to be eligible for trademark protection: it must be in use in commerce and it must be distinctive.

The first requirement, that a mark be used in commerce, arises because trademark law is constitutionally grounded in the congressional power to regulate interstate commerce."
"The second requirement, that a mark be distinctive, addresses a trademark's capacity for identifying and distinguishing particular goods as emanating from one producer or source and not another."

Trademark Basics
Trademark | Wex Legal Dictionary / Encyclopedia | LII / Legal Information Institute
Lanham Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i started this thread cause of the authentic makers with no legal protection are attempting to fight the cloners with the law even though they don't have a legal leg to stand on.

Which of the authentic makers that are fighting the cloners don't have legal protection? The ones that I know of do.

 

[Kendogalopigus]

and honestly i don't see the appeal to the small tubes and mods having sections, they would look cleaner if they were one piece and from what i have seen in my 4 months of vaping is most people use 18650 batteries anyways, my vtc5 18650 batteries last about 4 hours before i notice a drop and i think that's not long enough, i wont even touch an 18350 lol. and if its cheaper to make them as one tube and with most people using 18650 then why not do it? at least for the non-telescopic mods.

 

[Kendogalopigus]

@Coldrake, i wonder does china recognize this? no? oh that's right we covered this about 5 times already lol.

i already revisited 2 topics beaten to death im not doing it a third time, please go back an read, while the copyright/trademark/patent thing may be automatic here it is not in china and customs will do nothing to stop the import of clones.

 

[samcm010]

Maybe they should do some more R&D.......


Ever heard of non deceptive counterfeiting?

"Piracy: or non deceptive counterfeiting is when the counterfeit product’s intention is not to deceive the consumer, but on the contrary the consumer is aware that the product he or she is buying is pirated. In this case the consumer is the collaborator of the counterfeiters.

It is non-deceptive counterfeiting that is the focus of this study, perhaps more accurately called piracy, i.e. accurate and deliberate copying of branded goods, but not sold with the intention of attempting to deceive the customer. The deception involved is on the side of the consumer who chooses to buy these goods."







They are NOT open source. Open source is something completely different and has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.




Mark411, I would suggest that you should do some research. Neither require registration.

Here's the real 411 and the supporting documentation,

Copyright

"In all countries where the Berne Convention standards apply, copyright is automatic, and need not be obtained through official registration with any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape, or a computer file), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights."

"In 1989 the United States enacted the Berne Convention Implementation Act, amending the 1976 Copyright Act to conform to most of the provisions of the Berne Convention. As a result, the use of copyright notices has become optional to claim copyright, because the Berne Convention makes copyright automatic."


"(2) The minimum standards of protection relate to the works and rights to be protected, and to the duration of protection:

(a) As to works, protection must include "every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever the mode or form of its expression" (Article 2(1) of the Convention)."

"registration of a work with the Copyright Office is not a precondition for protection"

Copyright - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Berne Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WIPO-Administered Treaties
Treaties and Contracting Parties: Berne Convention
Copyright | Wex Legal Dictionary / Encyclopedia | LII / Legal Information Institute

Trademarks

You only have to use it in order for them to become a trademark.

Trademark Basics
""Is federal registration of my trademark reqired?" The quick answer is "No." But it will enhance your rights."

"The United States, Canada and other countries also recognize common law trademark rights, which means action can be taken to protect an unregistered trademark if it is in use."

"The law considers a trademark to be a form of property. Proprietary rights in relation to a trademark may be established through actual use in the marketplace"

"Two basic requirements must be met for a mark to be eligible for trademark protection: it must be in use in commerce and it must be distinctive.

The first requirement, that a mark be used in commerce, arises because trademark law is constitutionally grounded in the congressional power to regulate interstate commerce."
"The second requirement, that a mark be distinctive, addresses a trademark's capacity for identifying and distinguishing particular goods as emanating from one producer or source and not another."

Trademark Basics
Trademark | Wex Legal Dictionary / Encyclopedia | LII / Legal Information Institute
Lanham Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Which of the authentic makers that are fighting the cloners don't have legal protection? The ones that I know of do.

Best post of the entire thread!

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Best post of the entire thread!

Agreed

Maurice

 

[twgbonehead]

Maybe they should do some more R&D.......


Ever heard of non deceptive counterfeiting?

"Piracy: or non deceptive counterfeiting is when the counterfeit product’s intention is not to deceive the consumer, but on the contrary the consumer is aware that the product he or she is buying is pirated. In this case the consumer is the collaborator of the counterfeiters.

It is non-deceptive counterfeiting that is the focus of this study, perhaps more accurately called piracy, i.e. accurate and deliberate copying of branded goods, but not sold with the intention of attempting to deceive the customer. The deception involved is on the side of the consumer who chooses to buy these goods."







They are NOT open source. Open source is something completely different and has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.Mark411, I would suggest that you should do some research. Neither require registration.

Here's the real 411 and the supporting documentation,

Copyright

"In all countries where the Berne Convention standards apply, copyright is automatic, and need not be obtained through official registration with any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape, or a computer file), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights."

"In 1989 the United States enacted the Berne Convention Implementation Act, amending the 1976 Copyright Act to conform to most of the provisions of the Berne Convention. As a result, the use of copyright notices has become optional to claim copyright, because the Berne Convention makes copyright automatic."


"(2) The minimum standards of protection relate to the works and rights to be protected, and to the duration of protection:

(a) As to works, protection must include "every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever the mode or form of its expression" (Article 2(1) of the Convention)."

"registration of a work with the Copyright Office is not a precondition for protection"

Copyright - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Berne Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WIPO-Administered Treaties
Treaties and Contracting Parties: Berne Convention
Copyright | Wex Legal Dictionary / Encyclopedia | LII / Legal Information Institute

Trademarks

You only have to use it in order for them to become a trademark.

Trademark Basics
""Is federal registration of my trademark reqired?" The quick answer is "No." But it will enhance your rights."

"The United States, Canada and other countries also recognize common law trademark rights, which means action can be taken to protect an unregistered trademark if it is in use."

"The law considers a trademark to be a form of property. Proprietary rights in relation to a trademark may be established through actual use in the marketplace"

"Two basic requirements must be met for a mark to be eligible for trademark protection: it must be in use in commerce and it must be distinctive.

The first requirement, that a mark be used in commerce, arises because trademark law is constitutionally grounded in the congressional power to regulate interstate commerce."
"The second requirement, that a mark be distinctive, addresses a trademark's capacity for identifying and distinguishing particular goods as emanating from one producer or source and not another."

Trademark Basics
Trademark | Wex Legal Dictionary / Encyclopedia | LII / Legal Information Institute
Lanham Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Which of the authentic makers that are fighting the cloners don't have legal protection? The ones that I know of do.

OK, which mod manufacturer has copyright protection?

Copyright protection includes "Derivative works". That's why I can't write a "Star Wars" novel and publish it. Copyright protection does not apply to mods, heads, etc. You can quote ad infinitum about the rights granted under copyright protection, but it's a waste of space here, it doesn't apply. You can only copyright creative works.

From wikipedia:
A creative work is a manifestation of creative effort such as artwork, literature, music, and paintings.
Creative works have in common a degree of arbitrariness, such that it is improbable that two people would independently create the same work.



If copyright would apply, I would copyright human DNA, and charge a royalty from every living person on the planet, since they are all "derivative works". Or copyright my own DNA and claim that every other human being on the planet is using my copyrighted material without authorization.

So STOP with the copyright BS already. Trademark is the ONLY defensible protection.

 

[Kendogalopigus]

here's something i found from back in 2013 that i think may apply.

Surefire Vapor issues statement; legal action impending - Vaping Wern

Surefire Vapor, the Los Angeles based mod makers behind the King Mod, have issued a statement regarding the low quality clones of the King Mod from China.

We have become aware that a Chinese manufacturer by the name of Shenzhen Hcigar Technology Co., Ltd. (Hcigar) has been illegally manufacturing and distributing low quality clones of the Surefire Vapor King mod to international retailers. Such actions are in violation of the intellectual property rights held by Surefire Vapor, LLC. Furthermore, these actions unlawfully damage our company’s reputation, and hurt consumers by claiming that these inferior clones are equivalent to genuine Surefire Vapor products.

The statement goes on to say that the Surefire legal team has started work on pursuing legal action against the cloners, and are threatening repercussion of a penalty fine of $10,000, and/or one year in prison.

Only one issue there. The cloners are in China, and unless you have an international patent, China would probably throw your case to the dogs. Even with an international patent, it’s China that we’re talking about here, so they’d probably throw your case to the dogs anyway.

its now almost 2015 and i still see king clones at every shop i have been to.

 

[Marc411]

Damn you could have spelled my name right.

I have done my research and I have registered for trademark because without it is virtually impossible to litigate. I'm speaking from personal experience. Hopefully we have an attorney here that vapes to jump into the conversation.

A trademark is a brand name. A trademark or service mark includes any word, name, symbol, device, or any combination, used or intended to be used to identify and distinguish the goods/services of one seller or provider from those of others, and to indicate the source of the goods/services. Although federal registration of a mark is not mandatory, it has several advantages, including notice to the public of the registrant's claim of ownership of the mark, legal presumption of ownership nationwide, and exclusive right to use the mark on or in connection with the goods/services listed in the registration.

Although federal registration of a mark is not mandatory, it has several advantages, including notice to the public of the registrant's claim of ownership of the mark, legal presumption of ownership nationwide, and exclusive right to use the mark on or in connection with the goods/services listed in the registration.

You are responsible for enforcing your rights if you receive a registration, because the USPTO does not "police" the use of marks. While the USPTO attempts to ensure that no other party receives a federal registration for an identical or similar mark for or as applied to related goods/services, the owner of a registration is responsible for bringing any legal action to stop a party from using an infringing mark.

The owner of a registration is responsible for bringing any legal action to stop a party from using an infringing mark.

This is key if you want to go into litigation and I believe if you check all attorneys will recommended registration prior to any type of enforcement.

Including notice to the public of the registrant's claim of ownership of the mark

You must also be able to identify the goods and/or services to which the mark will apply, clearly and precisely. The identification of goods and/or services must be specific enough to identify the nature of the goods and/or services. The level of specificity depends on the type of goods and/or services.

So here's what I will end with, good luck to any small operator attempting to prosecute if the trademark has not been specified and the products aren't registered.

And it's Marc, with a C

@Coldrake, i wonder does china recognize this? no? oh that's right we covered this about 5 times already lol.

i already revisited 2 topics beaten to death im not doing it a third time, please go back an read, while the copyright/trademark/patent thing may be automatic here it is not in china and customs will do nothing to stop the import of clones.

While not recognized in China this statement does apply

The United States, Canada and other countries also recognize common law trademark rights, which means action can be taken to protect an unregistered trademark if it is in use."

 

[Hawaiian Nate]

Welll I am selling an authentic Chi on the classifieds for $75 and I am not the only one they are available all day long for far lower than RRP

Sorry, I'm not into buying used stuff (only cars) and I'm not trying to be rude but I'm kinda paranoid about getting stuff from non reputable dealers ("classifieds") and stuff from eBay claiming to be "authentic". I just moved to Wisconsin and there's not a lot of vape shops here and the ones that are around only sell $90 panzer clones and and $160 IPV2's. Thanks for the offer though. Hope you can sell the chi.

 

[Circa Survivor]

I'll miss you.

Like I miss having indigestion.

Ahhhh clever girl.

 

[TheJakeBailey]

You guys are still here huh? Somebody get me up to speed... who won?

 

[Circa Survivor]

You guys are still here huh? Somebody get me up to speed... who won?

Nobody. I don't think there really can be a winner when it comes to this. BUT we clone buyers are gutter scum and the people who buy authentics are the saviors of the American working man and will walk with Jesus when their time comes.

 

[Marc411]

You guys are still here huh? Somebody get me up to speed... who won?

LMAO, nobody has and nobody will but it's does lend itself to some excellent banter.

Nobody. I don't think there really can be a winner when it comes to this. BUT we clone buyers are gutter scum and the people who buy authentics are the saviors of the American working man and will walk with Jesus when their time comes.

WOW