Back to analogs. need help finding cruilty-free vegan DIY supplies.

[veganvap]

Sorry long. Thanks in advance. Asked in General e-liquid Discussion and was suggested to post in DIY.

I know some of you know a ton about e-juice, so I'm asking which companies you think I should ask my questions to. I'm back smoking (vegan, cruilty-free American Spirit) and hate it so much.

Please show some consideration for someone who's back on cigarettes and not derail this thread with a debate or opposition to veganism. We can start a debate in the off topic forum if you'd like.

I previously found vegan juice but might have asked something like "is this product linked to any animal testing?" and the vendor would just answer no as if they themselves don't animal test, instead of how you'll see I ask about animal testing now and other parts of my definition may have changed.

I asked the following questions to three juice vendors. Two didn't reply and the third said some of their juice meets my definion but said that there are no animal studied as far as they know, which I wouldn't vape because of an indefinite answer. So hopefully I can DIY.

The materials I want and am asking which suppliers you think will meet my definition:
-VG and PG
-broad range of flavors and hopefully at least one tobacco extract that taste sort of like a cigarette and not a cigar or pipe like the one I had did.
-nicotine base
-throat hit
-menthol
-sweetener

I won't consume anything that doesn't meet my current vegan definition. I'm picking away one thing at a time to hopefully omit everything I can that doesn't meet my definition, i.e. eventually 'is the dye to make thes blue jeans linked to animal tests", etc etc. soap, cleaning stuff, basically everything that makes sense. I make a list of products to stick to and re-ask the same questions about a year later to make sure nothing's changed. I wouldn't even eat at a vegan restaurant or eat something with the vegan logo on the package without confirmation of my definition. It can have the vegan logo and still be linked to animal tests and vice versa. I can't just read labels and consider it vegan if there are no animal-derived ingredients listed because they can use them to manufacture the product and sometimes don't have to be listed in ingredients. Bone char for sugar is a well known one, and there are others like isinglass (fish bladders) used to filter vinegar/apple juice/etc. Vinegar eels, L-cysteine (duck feathers and human hair) possibly being in flours, synthetic enrichments possibly being animal-derived or tested on animals, etc, etc.


Anyway, The questions I asked three juice vendors without success:

Hi,
I'd like to know if your e-juice meets my definition of Vegan.
Please e-mail me at
Thanks

Below, I list the exact e-juice mixes of what I'd like answers for.
If it's not too much work, please answer for more than just the mixes I list. In other words, if it's not too much trouble, please answer if all or 'all of your flavors besides these...' meet the definition.

Please don't respond with only a partial answer. I'll ask for the rest of the answers. If you can't answer, please relay the questions to a supervisor or someone who can.

Please don't assume any answers. I've had popular juice vendors tell me that some of their juice isn't vegan.

You would have to ask these questions to your suppliers for PG, VG, the flavor extracts, any added menthol or sweetener, and any other ingredients like coloring etc in the final e-juice mix that I don't list because I don't know it's added. Or just tell me the suppliers and the exact products and I'll email them.

In other words, you can just copy & paste my questions to the suppliers of each ingredient used for the mixes I'm asking about (and ask if the questions apply to all or some of their flavors so I'd be able to choose other flavors from them). For example, if I'm asking about an e-juice with VG base, a flavor from Flavor West, and an Ethyl Alcohol throat hit, you can relay these questions to the suppliers and note the specific product of the mixes I'm asking about and they'll ask their manufacturer these questions:


-Are there any animal-derived ingredients in this product? I'm not counting fossil fuel animals. I do count honey.

-Are any animal-derived products used to help manufacture this product? For example, sometimes Isinglass, egg, or dairy products are used to filter some liquids like apple juice and wine. I'm not counting something like animal-derived grease/rubber being a part of any machinery used to help manufacture this product- I'm asking if any animal-derived products are used to directly help process the product. I don't count things like animal-derived fertelizer to grow a plant that ends up as a flavor extract or base to breach the definition.

-Is this product linked to any animal testing? For example, the final product might not be tested, but it might contain ingredients from other suppliers who animal test and you'd have to find out through them. If the supplier of your PG is Dow and their last animal testing was 1995, then I'd still vape that PG. I'm not counting animal testing of pesticides used to grow a plant which ends up being something like a fruit extract or base to breach the definition.

These are the e-juice mixes I'm asking about at least:

And then I listed some mixes.

Side note, I know it sounds contradictory to almost say it's okay for the rubber/grease/etc of machinery to be animal-derived but not okay if any animal-derived ingredients are used to directly help process the product. But as said, I'm picking away one thing at a time and my main focus still only beign into this about a year is things I consume or put on my body like soap, toothpaste, clothes, etc.

 

[YKruss]

I am perfectly OK vaping on flavorless DIY, it still tasteful to me.

Oh, and it will cost you around $1.20 - $1.50 for 30 ml.

 

[Jethead]

Just my opinion, but I wouldn't even take the time to answer that email if I were a vendor.

There is just NO way to guarantee any of that UNLESS you make everything yourself from scratch.

Any other answer is at best a half truth.

YMMV and good luck.

 

[skoot]

Kudos for living your principles, there are few in this world with that much conviction.

I'm doing the best I can to vape organic and natural. It's hard. The best I've been able to find is Essential Depot's VG, which is USP, Kosher, and GMO-free. I would be very surprised if any VG manufacturer uses animal testing at this point, it's been around forever. Nicotine is tough, but I went with RTS Vapes because the tobacco is at least American. I keep hoping someone will come out with a nic base made from organic tobacco, but that's a ways off I think. For flavors, Nature's Flavors are the purest I've found, and they are USDA organic.

Sometimes you just have to do the best you can. I doubt you'll get responses from manufacturers, mainly because they don't want to take the time to track down their raw ingredients suppliers. This is a brand new industry, most are just trying to keep up with supply and demand.

I look at it this way- by vaping instead of smoking I'm of course helping myself but also cutting out secondary smoke, and I'm also not funneling money into Big Tobacco to use in marketing to third world children. By staying healthier, you're also giving yourself more time and energy to effect change in the world.

Don't beat yourself up if you can't find the perfect solution, because there isn't one. I'm a Buddhist, my motivation comes from doing good when I can, and at least doing no harm when I can't. If I found out a manufacturer used animal testing, I'd stop using their product. If you ask and don't get an answer, it's up to you of course- but I'd consider that enough due diligence.

 

[ninfreak]

if you want vegan...stay away from some natural and organic flavors as those can contain animal musks(most often found in stuff like raspberry and blackberry. blackberry generally uses .... secretions from the american beaver)

if you eat marshmallows or jello you are not vegan....if you eat sugar, a refinement proccess of making sugar uses charred cattle bones....you are not vegan. if you use #4 natural red food coloring it is made by boiling certain insects...you are not vegan. cheese is made from rennet which is in the stomachs of baby cows.....if you eat cheese, you are not vegan. if you eat bagels or some other proccessed breads they often contain enzymes from poultry feathers as a bread conditioner....you are not a vegan.... you might as well not drive if you are vegan as the tires have animal based products in them

my point is....there is no such thing as being 100% vegan these days unless you eat nothing but vegetables and make your own everyday goods....everything you buy in the stores from butter to plastics and shampoos can be made using animal products and you would never know. food for thought

 

[LucentShadow]

I'm guessing that you have a long, frustrating road ahead. Most businesses won't be able to manage that kind of traceability, even if they decided to bother trying to do so.

I would guess that the flavorings might be one of the most difficult tasks, as they are allowed to be secretive about them. I thought that I'd point out some info on doing your own flavor extractions:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/239733-coffee-flavor.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/liquid-extraction-tobacco/99774-vg-pipe-tobacco-essense.html

The tobacco extraction sub forum has some other methods, as well.

If you can find suitable PG or VG, unflavored nicotine liquid, and some products to extract flavoring from, you can go that way for flavorings. I've extracted tobaccos, coffee, tea, and several spices with good success. They tend to be hard on atomizer coils, but getting some micro filtration, such as .45 micron syringe filters, can alleviate that.

 

[Jessamine]

Hiya I'm vegan too (and no I don't eat obviously non-vegan items like jello, marshmellows or cheese - ninfreak you are silly! But you have awesome taste in music ) . In vaping we are in the world of chemicals and all chemicals have been tested at one point or another, unfortunately, if they had not been then they would not be allowed to be marketed for human consumption. VG and PG are in medicines so they have been tested, the same way cigarettes have been and are tested. The only thing we can do is purchase from companies that do not do their own animal testing or include flavorings with animal content, like you do with your cigarettes by smoking American Spirit. The point of veganism is wherever practical and possible to avoid animal content and testing, virgin vapors state straight up their flavours are vegan and kosher and she should be able to specify the origin of her VG Frequently Asked Questions | Virgin Vapor | Electronic Cigarette Organic e-Liquid | Electronic Cigarettes

 

[veganvap]

The materials I want and am asking which suppliers you think will meet my definition besides Nature's Flavors which has already been suggested (thanks). Hopefully USA-sourced:
-VG and PG
-broad range of flavors and hopefully at least one tobacco extract that taste sort of like a cigarette and not a cigar or pipe like the one I had did.
-nicotine base
-throat hit
-sweetener

 

[Cool_K]

Most of this stuff are manufactured in Chinese factories and they're definitely not known for their transparency. You may have to make some concessions if you want to vape.

 

[Scubabatdan]

The materials I want and am asking which suppliers you think will meet my definition besides Nature's Flavors which has already been suggested (thanks). Hopefully USA-sourced:
-VG and PG
-broad range of flavors and hopefully at least one tobacco extract that taste sort of like a cigarette and not a cigar or pipe like the one I had did.
-nicotine base
-throat hit
-sweetener

Hi,
I would recommend talking directly to Linda at the perfumers apprentice, they use flavor molecules to produce their flavors. She is very down to earth and can direct you on flavors for sure. As far as VG and PG I think that was answered by Skoot.
For nicotine I would contact Levy at xtremevaping.com, he is also a nice guy and may be able to answer your questions on nic.

Hope this helps in your quest, kudos to you and your convictions.
Dan

 

[Rachy_B]

if you want vegan...stay away from some natural and organic flavors as those can contain animal musks(most often found in stuff like raspberry and blackberry. blackberry generally uses .... secretions from the american beaver)

if you eat marshmallows or jello you are not vegan....if you eat sugar, a refinement proccess of making sugar uses charred cattle bones....you are not vegan. if you use #4 natural red food coloring it is made by boiling certain insects...you are not vegan. cheese is made from rennet which is in the stomachs of baby cows.....if you eat cheese, you are not vegan. if you eat bagels or some other proccessed breads they often contain enzymes from poultry feathers as a bread conditioner....you are not a vegan.... you might as well not drive if you are vegan as the tires have animal based products in them

my point is....there is no such thing as being 100% vegan these days unless you eat nothing but vegetables and make your own everyday goods....everything you buy in the stores from butter to plastics and shampoos can be made using animal products and you would never know. food for thought

American beaver whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?! Well I've learned a lot from that post...starting with don't use blackberry flavour! Not on the grounds of ethics, just on the grounds of 'ick'! Also, I thought cheese was made from milk... and bagels, well, I love bagels... This is quite upsetting! It must be a nightmare to be vegan! I was veggie for years and that was difficult enough!x

 

[CES]

The basic chemical that you're looking for probably can't be separated from animal studies. There are past and current studies that test(ed) the effects of smoking on animals. While you may be able to find vendors for which there is no testing in the direct supply line, many studies of the effects of nicotine used animals for the basic research.

 

[red_m1ke]

Tough thread here that poses a problem I find it hard to answer with anything else than: "If u want something to be done right, than do it yourself"

 

[skoot]

For sweetener I'm absolutely positive you can find stevia that is totally vegan. Check out Whole Foods. I've never used it though.

 

[Tracker II]

blackberry generally uses .... secretions from the american beaver

Good lord Ninfreak, you had to put that fact in my mind didn't you, lol.

 

[ninfreak]

Good lord Ninfreak, you had to put that fact in my mind didn't you, lol.

of coarse....i like useless facts that are seldom useless....they make for interesting conversations.

i'm vaping a blackberry flavor now....and i have to say that it is really good beaver!!!

 

[Kabooma]

The basic chemical that you're looking for probably can't be separated from animal studies. There are past and current studies that test(ed) the effects of smoking on animals. While you may be able to find vendors for which there is no testing in the direct supply line, many studies of the effects of nicotine used animals for the basic research.

^^ what he said.

American Spirit may not have done animal testing, but animal testing was done to approve the very product they sell, so they do have two degrees of separation.

So if you wanted to look at that in comparison to PG/VG/NIC, I'm sure testing was done, at some point, but not by the current-day manufacturers, so you have that same two degrees of separation. The days of testing are pretty much over, with exception to the current trend of vaping being tested by the FDA, but god only knows on what levels. I doubt they brought in chimps for it, and again, none of it is directly connected to the current product on the market, in a test-case point of view.

I most certainly understand your concerns about the flavor concentrates, and I've seen a couple of responses that correctly address it, so you shouldn't have a hard time finding appropriate vendors for your flavors.

NOW.. reading the OP, I'm going to be frank and tell you (OP), it seems like you are using this as an excuse to be back on analogs. I say this because of what I wrote above.. that the products we vape are no more suspect in the vegan world than the analogs you smoke. Would you be so quick to drop american spirit until they answered the same email full of lengthy and involved questions? Clearly not.

I applaud your efforts, just question your goal.

 

[mourningshadow]

Just out of curiosity have you asked Heathers Heavenly Vapes these questions? I order their purity line in 100%VG

I also second Essential Depot's VG, it is what I use for my DIY and I make a lot of my own flavor extracts with it. I have pretty much resigned myself to the fact that it may not be completely possible to vape 100% vegan and while I do want to do everything I can to do no harm to another living thing on this planet I also would not want to do such hard to myself as smoking again.

I seriously love you for trying though, please keep us posted if you find a way............