Battery concerns/misinformation and some education

[sawlight]

This came up in chat last night and several people were concerned about it, so I thought it might be a good time to try and help educate people a little about batteries.

The story was a Chuck blew up, this is the thread: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/thag-built-chuck/75702-my-chuck-blew-up-literally.html

Here is a little information on the care and feeding: How to prolong lithium-based batteries

Now in the above story, I cannot say for certain, but what I THINK (assuming here) happened was a double mess up, He has concluded they were NOT protected batteries, ONLY buy protected batteries guys, it's just to easy, they don't cost that much more, they are easy enough to find and you don't have to baby sit them! Just don't play with anything less please! Unprotected cells can work safely, but you have to be attentive to them at ALL times.
The other thing, and this is speculation on my part, but I think these 3V batteries (it's specified they were 3V batts) were charged in a 3.7V charger, This is the easiest means to explain how both the batteries in the Chuck and the other set in the charger blew up at the same time.
KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT what you are charging and at what voltage! I have a set of 3v 123a's I've used for two years, now I have a BB and have batts for my flashlights on the way, the 3v batts are going away and I am switching everything over to 3.7v, I don't want to mess with the confusion or have a chance of accidently putting the wrong batt on the wrong charger. No need to risk it and my Novatac will be happier with 3.7v anyway.
Many of you have it in your mind that you can use the store bought 123a batteries and all will be fine. Yes and no! Do NOT mix used and new ones, try not to mix batches or brands. I know it sounds funny, but these little batteries pack twenty times the energy of a D sized battery! I've seen pictures of a Surefire flashlight that had gone through the metal base of a sliding door, after it blew the lens assembly off and went forty feet across a parking lot.
Some videos to make my point:

YouTube - PC Pitstop: Laptop Battery Fire

YouTube - Lithium Polymer Battery Explosion's (liposack)

Now you will and should note, both of these were staged! This is a safe chemistry, when YOU do your part, it's no different that the VK batts, they have this potential to, but they are protected and use smart chargers, so 90% of it is done for us!

For chargers, if you want to run RCR123a's at 3v, PLEASE buy batteries and chargers as a MATCHED set, it's easier, it's cheaper, it's safer and the manufacture/reseller takes the guess work out of it for you.

For 3.7v, the circle's I run in highly recomened the Ultrafire WF-139. I am using a Trustfire TR-001 with no issue as of yet, but it has been known to just slightly overcharge in the past, but I've not seen it.

I really hope Addy will drop in and help as well with some insight, as I'm sure others will as well. Please ask questions, express concerns and we will try to dispel the myth from fact.
I am by no means trying to discourage the use of these, but I am trying to encourage some education on the SAFE use of them.

 

[Adrenalynn]

Great expose', Saw!

I'd observe a couple more things that might be worth pointing out: these little batteries contain a LOT less potential energy. Getting any kind of real "explosive force" from them would be tough.

I read the "exploding Chuck" story and was struck by the compounding mistakes, many of which you noted. Another one I question was cell balancing. It appears he had multiple unprotected cells with no balancing method? That's a major nono and will certainly soften up your lipos and lead to bad things happening but only if you have more than one cell to balance. We don't in these stock devices.

Something I've almost always (perhaps absolutely) observed in catastrophic failure of experimental devices is "compounding error". Any one isn't enough to cause a catastrophic failure, but once I start down the road of making a mistake, the mistakes just keep coming and piling on until KERBLOOIE!. It's like the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back".

Consumer turn-key products like the one most of us use are usually pretty safe. When you start running off down the road of experimenting in an uncontrolled environment is when you run the risk of catastrophic, potentially dangerous, results.

The fires and "explosions" in your videos are large multi-cell packs deliberately abused (as you noted) containing a boatload of potential energy. The reaction we see in the videos is commonly called "thermal runaway" in the parlance. I honestly am just not certain there's enough potential energy in a little 1 watt battery to even experience thermal runaway, and if there is, there's so little fuel and the end-cap is so weakly held, I find it unlikely that one could get more than a little "pop" off the end without modification.

I have some flawed batteries. Maybe I can block out some time and try to catastrophically fail them and see just how big a reaction we can get. 'Cause science is fun, right?

 

[Kimmy]

I have some flawed batteries. Maybe I can block out some time and try to catastrophically fail them and see just how big a reaction we can get. 'Cause science is fun, right?

As Bill Nye the science guy states in his theme song, "science rules"

Sorry but your last statement at the end "cause science is fun, right" has me singing this annoying song

"Bill ! Bill ! Bill!...Bill nye the science guy" catchy music playing

 

[sawlight]

Well, to back up a bit of my point the power of these little things. This video is STUPID the people are IDIOTS for doing this, but you get the idea:

YouTube - CR123A Lithium Battery Fire

This is the story of the Surefire flashlight:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=951360

 

[Adrenalynn]

The typical CR123 (like in your latest video) contains, what, 3-6 times the potential energy? (I'm not sure what the modders are generally using, so that's more of a question) Energy In = Energy Out [or we have universe-destroying potential ]. So we'd expect the reaction from an XL battery to be 3-6 times less scary violent, right?

 

[CatMommy]

Well, to back up a bit of my point the power of these little things. This video is STUPID the people are IDIOTS for doing this, but you get the idea:

YouTube - CR123A Lithium Battery Fire

This is the story of the Surefire flashlight:

SureFire Kaboom...WTF over!...(PICS FIXED) - AR15.COM

So can I assume that the spray coming off the battery at the beginning of the video is what is scientifically referred to as "venting".

 

[Adrenalynn]

Yup. It was venting gasses.

Here's what I charge my large batteries (primarily for robotics) in. And I'm not terribly picky about the chemistry that goes into this box. I doubt anyone remembers, but 20/20 had a show decades ago on people that had their faces blown off jumpstarting car batteries. It damaged me for _life_.

So, yeah, I charge all my big batteries in a 10G vented steel box, usually set in the middle of the open garage floor on concrete, or if it's too hot, on the concrete portion of the floor in the lab.

It's a power supply box for camera and alarm systems, and it bolts closed... It aint pretty, but it'll take H.E. to blow it open...

[edit to note:] The battery (orange thing) in the picture is a 4 cell LiPo, each cell about 10x the potential energy of a regular V4L battery. So forty TIMES the potential energy.

 

[sawlight]

The Chuck explosion involved two RCR123a's, plus two in the charger. The Surefire in the link was three 123a's.
No, we are not ripping a hole in the space time continuum, but as I found out last night, many people are not aware of the potential that some of these batteries have.
I've yet to see a video of an 18650, but I do have an unprotected one I acquired in a trade that I have no love for or want to keep, so I can send it to you, or blow it up in the drive?

Again Addy, I'm not trying to put the fear of God into everybody, I just want them to respect them and understand they need to be dealt with with some care.

 

[Adrenalynn]

Saw - I think we were posting at the same time, so there's a photo I posted above you there you may not get notified on.

Totally agreed, Saw! If you're using mods with the larger batteries like that, then yeah, absolutely agreed. I'm just trying to explain that a standard V4L battery doesn't contain that kind of energy.

They should still be respected, like anything containing stored energy should, but it's a FAR lower risk with a little V4L battery than any of the mod batteries.

 

[sawlight]

Agreed, the VK batteries are nothing of this nature! They do not have the amount of power I am talking about/showing concern about! The VK batts are pud and VERY safe! This is dealing with battery mods of ANY type! I'm sorry, I should have been more specific in that description!

Again, the blown up Surefire for Addy:
SureFire Kaboom...WTF over!...(PICS FIXED) - AR15.COM

 

[CatMommy]

Wow...you guys are teaching me more about batteries than I learned in Chemistry class (....and freaking me out a little bit...LOL...j/k).

 

[Adrenalynn]

It seems they have their own "Adrenalynn" - Kieth_J.

I didn't read the whole thread - did Surefire replace it under LT warranty?

But yes - now that we're on the same page with Mod vs Consumer V4L, I'm totally onboard with you. Do NOT taunt happy fun Lithium.

 

[Adrenalynn]

CM - a little healthy fear is good if it keeps you sharp.

I'm invariably annoyed when the TSA wants to take away my little 1.5oz jar of foundation because I didn't put it in a plastic baggy, but my 4x 9 cell lithium laptop packs + half a dozen cell batteries) plus a hundred more laptop batteries get on the plane with nary a glance.

 

[sawlight]

I'm sure SF replaced it, but I never did finish the thread, I read it more than six months ago and I don't fit in well with that club!

I'm not trying to scare you CM! It's like I said last night, stick with a good battery and all will be fine! It's just many don't understand and know you need a protected battery, or where to get one for their mod. Kudos to most of the builders as I see the promote protected cells!
But I remember having all of this beat into my head when I got into flashlights years ago.

 

[Adrenalynn]

And I appreciate the work you're doing bringing it to the forefront again.

As you and I spoke of a few days ago, I went out of my way to find protected cells for even a little AAA application. BUT, protected or not, if you abuse them or excessively taunt them they will still go KERPLOOIE. There is explosive gas, a metal that burns exceedingly hot, and a fantastic oxidizer in there.

If the entire world didn't depend upon laptops and cell phones to function - I think the large lithium cells would already be banned. LiFePO₄ is faaaar safer, and eventually we'll see the LiPo and LiIon vanish from production, once LiFePO₄ reaches maturity.

 

[wader2k]

I bought a new phone recently and it has 1.2V NiMh batts. I asked somewhere about the safety of these in a possible mod but didn't really get an answer. I was thinking that 4 of them would make a nice 4.8V unit and 5 would get it to 6V.

From what I could see though these are unprotected, but maybe the NiMh chemistry is safer inherently?

Nevermind me.....don't mean to sidetrack. Science IS fun!

 

[Adrenalynn]

NiMH has faaaaar lower energy density. Which makes them "safer" but entirely inappropriate for these little devices - unless you want to carry around pounds of batteries. (4:1-8:1 lower energy density. So you'd need 4x to 8x the weight/size to carry the same capacity.)

How old was the cell phone that had NiMH in it? Even my old motorolas are LiIon...

 

[Adrenalynn]

Nothing was noted in the 7 pages by the OP that SF replaced it. That'd be ... disappointing if not.

 

[wader2k]

NiMH has faaaaar lower energy density. Which makes them "safer" but entirely inappropriate for these little devices - unless you want to carry around pounds of batteries. (4:1-8:1 lower energy density. So you'd need 4x to 8x the weight/size to carry the same capacity.)

How old was the cell phone that had NiMH in it? Even my old motorolas are LiIon...

Not a cellphone. I don't believe in cell phones.
This as a Panasonic wireless landline. Model KX-TGA101S. Fairly new. I'm not really up on battery terminology. These are listed as 750 Mah if I remember right. Is that the capacity you speak of?

 

[Adrenalynn]

Nod. And how large/heavy was the pack?

Have you ever seen a cell phone before? I'm just wondering how anyone can "not believe in them" at this point. There's a lot of physical evidence that points towards their existence...