Battery Voltages -- Surprise!

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JW50

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...

And watch out for the "True RMS Meter" that won't do anything but AC sine.
Read more than the "specifications" in the operators manual. Many will not do a waveform like the eGo output.

RMS measurements are easy with pure sine wave or pure DC. It's a little harder with complex waveforms.
I used to calibrate some pretty crappy, but expensive DMMs.

...

For those cheapo meters that don't give double the DC read (and zero on reverse polarity) when AC fuction is used, I get from the "What does an AC voltmeter measure?" article By Louis Dudzikon that (1 – D) ≅ ACread / 2.2 x DCread. Here, D is the fraction for duty rate. Expressed somewhat different, D = 1 - 0.455*ACread/DCread. And with D determined, Vrms = DCread/√D. So "True RMS" from cheapo meter. At least in theory. But some problems in actual practice on the eGo wave form. I have a Fluke 11 DMM, a "non - True RMS" meter, and one that gives positive reads on the AC function in either polarity from an eGo. But problem is that the eGo produces such an unstable and changing output on the AC scale on that meter as to make the equation mentioned worthless. And, actually, don't get a real stable value on the DC function either. At least this is so in an unloaded state from an eGo.
 
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DaveP

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There are lots of variations on the VV mods these days. I'm on a waiting list for MadVapes box mod for $35 that uses a NCP 630 regulator with a potentiometer voltage adjustment. This will be my first VV mod and will probably help me find out whether I want to get into high priced VV mods or just stay with my Ego and Riva batts with Boge LR 510 cartos.

This thing uses 2 14500 batts and claims to be adjustable from 0 to around 7 volts. Does that sound reasonable?
Variable Voltage Box Mod

Having a commercial electronics service background, I'll eventually build my own. I look at this as a cheap way to get familiar with the methods. It has a sealed 510 thread connector.
 

Rocketman

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Dave,
sit down with a little paper and a pencil.
The NCP 630A, low dropout regulator, is a linear regulator, right?
a 14500 Li-ion cell is 900mah @ an average of 3.7 volts, the same as an eGo 900mah cell (3.33 watt hours)
Stacking 900 mah cells to give 7.4 volts gives 900mah @ 7.4 volts (6.66 watt hours).
If you run the mod @ 5 volts, about one third of the power will be lost as component heat.
If you run it lower, say 4.5 volts, about 40 % of the battery energy is lost.
If you run it about the same as a 3.7 volt e-cig with a 1.6 ohm carto, lets say a 3 ohm carto @ 5 volts, 1.66 amps, 8.3 watts, 4 watts will be lost.

Make a list of the possible carto resistances you might like to try. Then figure the range of voltages that would be applicable.
I know people that run VV with 1.6 ohm mega dual coil cartos at about 4.2 to 4.5 volts.

The most efficient voltage with a linear regulator is at the highest output you can run.
If you want to run 14500 cells down to 3.5 volts loaded, stacked 7 volts, with about .5 volts lost in the regulator, 6.5 volts is the practical upper limit. Fully charged, 7.8 volts loaded, 6.5 volts out, down to 7 volts loaded with 6.5 volts out. Figure the losses. The 14500 has about a 2 amp upper limit (some claim to run 2.5 amps). A 4.5 ohm high voltage atty would give you about 9.4 watts at 6.5 volts. Electrical losses would only be about 12%. That's pretty good. Run time with a pair of quality 14500 cells would be better than a 900mah eGo.

VV mods with a pair of smaller cells, like maybe 16340, 600mah cells, and a 90% efficiency switching regulator would also have a better run time than an eGo. A little better :)


The sealed or unsealed 510 connector will be sealed when the positive lead wire is soldered to the center pin.
The auto battery 510 had the hole left open to allow air to operate the switch. Most mods end up with the connector sealed by default.
 
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JW50

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The 14500 has about a 2 amp upper limit (some claim to run 2.5 amps).

So what happens if atty wants more current than 2 or 2.5? I note that in your eGo experiment with the 1.6 ohm atty that instantaneous current of ~ 2.44 amps was needed at just off charger. Can eGo and Riva handle currents on order of 2.5 amps? PWM I presume reduces the stress. My perceptions have been that the eGo batts lasts longer than a Riva. Maybe the less stress of PWM?
 

Rocketman

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Pulses of 2.44 amps for a little over 2 amps average.
With an unregulated e-cig the load is 5 to 10 seconds of continuous load.
The cell in the eGo and Riva are a little misleading when compared to a 14500 or 16340 cell.
They do not have the extra metal shell, or metal endcaps.
The cell inside a 14500 is not 14mm X 50 mm.

As load increases on the cell the cell resistance drops some of the voltage. More load, more drop.
Note the starting peak voltage with the 3 ohm and 1.6 ohm. Cell internal resistance, is really a resistance.
Costs you an IR drop. Little cells cost you more.


as an example, an IMR 26650 has a 10 amp continuous, 30 amp peak rating :)
 
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DaveP

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DaveP - Zero to 7 volts sounds reasonable to me. 2 series batts. Don't know what a NCP 630 does but presume voltage regulation - not PWM regulation. Nice looking device in my opinion. Link showed units available. Does this mean no further waiting?

Yesterday, they had 0 in stock. Today, they had 6 ... I bought one of those. They are out of 14500 batteries, but I went to Awesome Vapor to order some juice and they had Trustfire/Ultra fire protected 14500 batteries for $5 each. I ordered two and also ordered a multi-charger for $14. The charger works with 14500s and several other types.

Cheap and cheesy as it is, it's getting high marks for performance.
Capt's Vape-O-Rama: The $35 VV Wonder
 

DaveP

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Rocketman, I agree with all your comments. I have a 3 ohm Little Dwarf dripper atty that I'll probably start with. It's cool and bland at 3.4v and 3.7v. I hear it rocks at 5v. The review I posted talked about a 901 (with an adapter) that the reviewer tried at 7v. It reportedly knocked his head off, and then he tried it at various points between 5v and 6v, which rewarded him with all sorts of nuances and good flavor variations.

I'll probably use it with my Little Dwarf 3ohm atty at first and order some higher range attys to try. One of the reviewers pointed out that it warmed the box up at lower voltages, as you said. Excess power is dissipated as heat and it is a linear regulator rather than a pulse width modulated regulator. But, for $35 and a set of batteries, it will be a fun experiment that will let me experience HV for a song.
 

DaveP

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Your total, including shipping for the mod, batts, and charger?

The vv mod was $34.99 + $2.99 USPS ship from Madvapes.

At Awesome Vapor the the 14500 batteries were $10 for a pair + $14 for a charger. I ordered some juices from them, also. Shhipping has always been $5.00 at AV.

So, I guess the total was about $59 including batteries and a charger + the shipping above. You could save on shipping by waiting until they have the mod and the batteries in stock. I didn't want to take a chance on the 5 they had selling by the time the batteries were back in stock.

Here's a review thread with videos on ECF. The OP reviews the VV and the 5V mod.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-cigarette-video-reviews/221621-mv-5v-vv-box-mod-review.html
 
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DaveP

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You're off to a good start and seem to have a handle on resistance requirements for the higher voltages.

You'll like it.

My background is in high speed office and computer room printers/multi-function copiers and such. I maintained monochrome and color printers that do large scale billing (Insurance policies, utility bills, and electronically printed manuals). These were boxes with $250,000 price tags. I was a tech rep with a multi-national company for 36 years. Electromechanical and digital is in my blood. I thrived on tracing signals through wiring harnesses using half-split troubleshooting techniques, and troubleshooting digital circuits with CRT based software diagnostics that allowed component control and signal monitoring from the keyboard.

I've thought about building a Provari from piece parts, but when I saw this mod, I decided to buy it and play with it until I research the components and design a screwdriver style variable mod with a display. I can pop the back off, hook up a DVM to the atomizer connections, and set voltages under load. That will give me some feel for what works best with certain atomizers at various voltage settings.

Spec Sheet on the NCP 630 regulator
http://www.madvapes.com/assets/images/NCP630-D.pdf
 
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Scottbee

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Sorry guys... haven't followed this thread in a long, long time and I apologize if I am commenting on some old news.

Didn't know if you had seen one yet, but I just got the "new" Eastmall "Riva" battery. This unit has a "5-click" feature which adjusts the PWM, allowing for three different effective power levels. I haven't put it on the scope, but I have run it on the DVM load tester. The "highest" setting appears to be pretty close to straight cell voltage. Middle setting is similar to a traditional eGo.. with the lowest setting a ways below that.

They have also incorporated a 5-LED bar graph display which roughly represents the remaining battery capacity (undoubtedly based on loaded cell voltage). I have vaped a couple of these units down to the recharge level, and the bar-graph works surprisingly well. Kinda a handy feature if you don't keep track of your charging routine and don't want to leave the house/office with a battery that is getting ready to take a dump.

Despite the accolades, I'm wary of the basic design. It uses the ring-lens design that we saw back on the T-Rex and MaxX units... along with the metal button. And the problem that I always had with that design is that the atty end of the unit could easily pull out of the casing (pressed into plastic, not the metal tube) and the units would "bend" easily at that joint.

Anyway, enjoy!

Dsc00225.jpg
 

br5495

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Sorry guys... haven't followed this thread in a long, long time and I apologize if I am commenting on some old news.

Didn't know if you had seen one yet, but I just got the "new" Eastmall "Riva" battery. This unit has a "5-click" feature which adjusts the PWM, allowing for three different effective power levels. I haven't put it on the scope, but I have run it on the DVM load tester. The "highest" setting appears to be pretty close to straight cell voltage. Middle setting is similar to a traditional eGo.. with the lowest setting a ways below that.

They have also incorporated a 5-LED bar graph display which roughly represents the remaining battery capacity (undoubtedly based on loaded cell voltage). I have vaped a couple of these units down to the recharge level, and the bar-graph works surprisingly well. Kinda a handy feature if you don't keep track of your charging routine and don't want to leave the house/office with a battery that is getting ready to take a dump.

Despite the accolades, I'm wary of the basic design. It uses the ring-lens design that we saw back on the T-Rex and MaxX units... along with the metal button. And the problem that I always had with that design is that the atty end of the unit could easily pull out of the casing (pressed into plastic, not the metal tube) and the units would "bend" easily at that joint.

Anyway, enjoy!

Welcome back Scott. It's good seeing you here again.

I have the battery pass-through version of your new toy and my findings of it are about the same as yours. It didn't take me long to find out that the plastic ring-lens is the weakest part of the design, heheh. Also, I found that your voltage estimates are about the same as mine, or a good bit lower than those advertised.

I bought mine in hopes that the lowest setting would be somewhat less that 3 volts, and that turned out to be the case. However, the voltage changes a good bit depending on the load, so that was a surprise.
 

Kent C

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Scott, BR! thanks for the info. I was looking into these but hadn't pulled the trigger. I do like the idea of the bar-graph for the same reasons you state but I went to having extra 'full' batts on hand, but still, it would be a nice feature. I'm liable to wait and see if they fix the band weakness though, but the variable voltage sounds like it's in a range that would accomodate the difference I get with some flavors I use. While the regular and SE Rivas don't have that particular 'band' problem I still find the threading on Rivas I have, don't accept all attys/cartos without some mod. Some work and I set them aside for certain batts... So far only one Joye batt (out of many) had that threading problem.
 

br5495

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Scott, BR! thanks for the info. I was looking into these but hadn't pulled the trigger. I do like the idea of the bar-graph for the same reasons you state but I went to having extra 'full' batts on hand, but still, it would be a nice feature. I'm liable to wait and see if they fix the band weakness though, but the variable voltage sounds like it's in a range that would accomodate the difference I get with some flavors I use. While the regular and SE Rivas don't have that particular 'band' problem I still find the threading on Rivas I have, don't accept all attys/cartos without some mod. Some work and I set them aside for certain batts... So far only one Joye batt (out of many) had that threading problem.

Hey there Kent. It's beginning to look like old timer's day on this thread, heheh.

The pass-through version doesn't have the bar graph, but of course it's not needed while used as such. I suppose it's about the same length though, because that space is used for the mini USB plug. When fully charged and plugged in, it puts out somewhat more than 3.7 volts, which may be a tad above the voltage of the battery version.

Somehow I doubt if they will fix the plastic band anytime soon, but let's hope I'm wrong.
 

Rocketman

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Old timer's day?

I hope the wife doesn't see the one with the bar graph. I was constantly re-gluing the DSE-905s she sat on until I just quit buying more of them.
I assume the flashy ring is about as strong.
Is the lowest setting vapable? (I know the 5 volt folks are laughing at this one).

Rocky

(not as old as you :))
 

br5495

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Yeah, I know. I'm probably the oldest old fart on this forum. And probably the most old fashioned and behind the times, heheh.

The lowest setting is vapable for me, but maybe not for most others. Right now I am vaping at 2.8 volts with a 3.3Ω coil and having a hard time keeping my juice consumption at or below 6ml per day. If I vape with any more power, it burns the taste of my juice. But then, I build my own cartomizers and am cursed with a spell that forces me to keep trying to improve them.
 

Rocketman

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Thanks br.

I might have to get one just for the heck of it. It the wife severely 'Breaks' it in two, it does have 'Mod' parts in it :)
See if you can get a voltage reading on the LOW range fresh off the charger and just before cut off.
(I found that once an eGo cuts off you can fool it by charging for about a minute and can take a reading then).

What has driven my juice consumption up is cutting down on strength. I'm at 12mg/ml and vape almost every waking minute :)

Being "the oldest old fart on this forum" brings with it respect, Sir.
 
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