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salemgold

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The thing about "possible side effects" is that if a side effect is even remotely possible, it has to be listed. Many people would never take Ibuprofen or Tylenol if they read the "possible side effects" listed although they do have their place and work well in many cases. Often times it is the over use or abuse that will cause the issues.

EDIT- I am NOT saying that this is the case with Chantix at all :)
 

FAAmecanic

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I'm a psychotherapist. Had a man come in with atypical psychosis - I mean, wasn't right for schizophrenia, not right for any other psychosis, the symptoms just didn't line up and didn't feel right but he was absolutely crazy - sporadic hallucinations of all sorts, rages, dissociative episodes, occasional total disorientation, way, way labile, disjunct cognitive delays and thought disorders all over the place, headaches... all more or less out of the blue.
Took him and his wife two weeks to notice that all of this was coincident with Chantix regime. They didn't mention it on the meds sheet because "it's just a quit-smoking medicine."
Uh huh.
He's fine now.
I've got my own private war going on Pharma. Seen way too much. Sigh. The kids are the worst. And now they will call you a Scientologist if you're conservative about what gets dealt out. Grrrrr.....

Either they ignored what thier Dr. that perscribed Chantix told them about side affects or the DR. "forgot" to mention those. Both Dr.'s I went to on two different "quit" tries STRESSED these side affects with me, and forced me to come in for follow up appts. just to make sure everything was OK.

Chantix worked for me for the time I took it...but I HATED what it did to me. I would snap at the drop of a hat (I think between the drug side effects and quitting is what contributed to this)...my pooor wife ...what a trooper to deal with me then.

Good to hear a psychotherapist say they are "conservative" when it comes to drugs. Too many I feel just immediately pass the perscription sheets around. All children are ADD, and all adults are depressed (and now need a drug on top of thier regular anti-depressant) and cant sleep if you watch all those commercials. Keep fighting the good fight!!
 

Ande

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More than a quarter of students who entered US universities in 2000 were medicated for soem sort of behavioural or attention related disorder. (SOrry, no link, it's been years since the study I read was published.)

I bet it's gotten worse since then.

Nope, wasn't always that way. Kids that didn't pay attention used to get taught how. Now they get drugged. Trust me on this, they can STILL be taught how. But where's the profit in that?

The war on drugs is over. Drugs won.

Ande
 

Midcoast

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Hmmm... Chantix worked for me in the sense that I quit smoking. It also made me incredibly angry- and then I stopped taking it, and started smoking cigs again...
On the other hand, my brother in law quit using it. Given the side effects of cigs vs chantix...
So maybe not demonize it.
I haven't had a cig since the day I started vaping...
Yay, ecigs, but I am probably in the minority. (at least according to the few studies...)
Big Pharma has its issues, but it also does good things.
Big tobacco has rarely if ever done good things. I am uncomfortable allying myself with them, even in defense of my ongoing nicotine addiction...
 

rolygate

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BT is known for its endemic lying. Now, with cigarette sales being squeezed hard in the West, they are looking to alternative products that don't have such a bad rep. Snus is a good candidate as it reduced the smoking death rate by 40% in Sweden. E-cigs are the same kind of deal; so BT will inevitably get in on the act - they have to.

BP does not have the same public image as BT but they deserve every single bit of it. Just look at the situation in Europe: by 'influencing' the EU health commission they have managed to maintain a ban on Snus for ten years, in order to protect the sales of NRTs and chemotherapy drugs, among other smoking-related profit lines. The annual death rate from smoking in the EU is reported as 650,000 per year. The minimum number of lives that would be saved if Snus was allowed would be 10%, i.e. 65,000 per year. The maximum, though less likely, would be 260k / year (40%).

Pharma is directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in Europe. Not only that, they are responsible for the bans of e-cigs that have occurred in several EU countries, with more to come, most likely - plus a possible EU-wide ban to match the Snus ban. A ban on e-cigs would cause the loss of at least half as many lives again as the Snus ban, as e-cigs are that much more popular and more likely to be used by smokers seeking a safer alternative.

The pharmaceutical industry is directly responsible for death on a scale that beggars belief. The most charitable description you can give them is greedy, money-grabbing mass murderers. The fact they produce other products that save life is hardly relevant when you can clearly see what their motives are: money, money, and more money. To consider the saving of life as anything remotely related to the pharmaceutical industry's aims is simply laughable - it's just a by-product. They'll kill you for a nickel.
 

wfx

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"it's just a quit-smoking medicine." Uh huh. He's fine now. I've got my own private war going on Pharma.

yep. the difference between an approved medicine and dangerous chemicals? how much you can spend on advertising. the system is definitely out of whack. and i remember exactly when it went off course. drug advertising on TV/radio.

i think these guys think science can be molded to fit a marketing plan. sadly it will take many more injuries, deaths and lawsuits to get back on track.
 

Ande

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Hmmm... Chantix worked for me in the sense that I quit smoking. It also made me incredibly angry- and then I stopped taking it, and started smoking cigs again...
On the other hand, my brother in law quit using it. Given the side effects of cigs vs chantix...
So maybe not demonize it.
I haven't had a cig since the day I started vaping...
Yay, ecigs, but I am probably in the minority. (at least according to the few studies...)
Big Pharma has its issues, but it also does good things.
Big Tobacco has rarely if ever done good things. I am uncomfortable allying myself with them, even in defense of my ongoing nicotine addiction...

I haven't smokes since I discovered vaping either. :)

And...Big Tobacco never did anything to me. They sold me an enjoyable, dangerously addictive, deadly product. Which is what I bought, and what I knew when I bought them. It was all clearly labeled and out in the open. I started smoking in the 80s- cigarette packs had "smoking kills" and similar written on them. I started cause I thought smoking was cool and rebelious- frankly, I still think that. No lies were told. Cool, pleasant and deadly. And I bought'em.

Big pharma, on the other hand, told me the lies that kept me hooked, and hooked in the most dangerous way.

Things big pharma (and their lackeys in the anti "health" organisations) told me:
1) To truly quit, you need to quit nicotine entirely. Preferably withing 8-16 weeks.

2) You HAVE to quit- any use of tobacco is equally dangerous.

3) It's okay if it takes many attempts to quit, as long as total cessation is where you eventually arise.

4) Smokeless tobacco products are JUST AS BAD as smoking.

5) Smoking a little is JUST AS BAD as smoking a lot.

6) Smoking has no benefits. Any pleasure you feel is just relief from withdrawal.

7) You can do it! Everybody can quit smoking!

8) Big pharma products are safe and effective.

Anybody care to add?

.... big Pharma

Ande
 

Midcoast

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Big Pharma is out to make money. Same as Big Tobacco. But really. Think about it.
When my little girl started turning blue because she couldn't breath and we rushed her to the ER in a panic- Big Pharma provided the drug that helped her to breath.
Big Pharma keeps my clients from killing themselves or others.
Big Pharma helps to maintain blood sugar and blood pressure for those who might have issues with this, due to poor diet or genes.
I could go on and on, but what's the point?
I'm no fan of the industry in general, but really?
Compared to Big Tobacco?
Really?
 

Ande

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Big Pharma is out to make money. Same as Big Tobacco. But really. Think about it.
When my little girl started turning blue because she couldn't breath and we rushed her to the ER in a panic- Big Pharma provided the drug that helped her to breath.
Big Pharma keeps my clients from killing themselves or others.
Big Pharma helps to maintain blood sugar and blood pressure for those who might have issues with this, due to poor diet or genes.
I could go on and on, but what's the point?
I'm no fan of the industry in general, but really?
Compared to Big Tobacco?
Really?

Fraid so. Seriously- Big Pharma works for money. They do good, occasionally, but it's just tangential. They exist to make money.

Honestly, I was playing a little- There's no dichotomy here. Big Pharma is Big Tobacco is Big Aerospace or Automotive. Corporations are all in it to make money- that's just their job.

Which is why they may benefit society through their innovations, but they shouldn't be allowed to influence or control policy.

Big Tobacco has lied plenty to protect their profit margins. BUT they would have been (and tried to be) all over the market long ago with snus and other THR alternatives if they hadn't been stymied by Pharma and their stooges.

That's a clear case where Big Tobacco could have saved many lives and wasn't allowed to because it would interfere with pharma profits.

Not that tobacco companies care how many lives or saved or lost- they just wanted to sell the products. For money.

The situation as I see it: In general, all corporations are as moral (immoral) as each other. They just follow the money.

But in this situation, ecigs and tobacco harm reduction, the interests of tobacco companies align reasonably well with our interests as tobacco consumers.

The interests of Big Pharma are as sellers of products for cessation, for disease treatment, for the depression that results from nicotine deprivation, for cancer, for chemo, for ADHD...it goes on and on. These products all stand to lose market share if THR gets big, and they are working hard to prevent it. In this case, that makes them our chief opponent.

Best,
Ande
 

rothenbj

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It is even possible that high-profile incidents reported in the media are attributable to Chantix - it seems to be the last thing that anyone would connect with a heart attack, a suicide or a violent attack on a family; but we know from experience that it is the first factor to check.

I wonder if someone ought to pass this on to the press, it might be of interest to them.

With the number of dollars generated by these ads, the media is not real anxious to "over report" any possible, "obscure" link between a pharma product and devastating side effects. As they like to say, smoking is a relatively high risk activity anyway, killing 50% of its users (another of the ANTZ say it often enough campaigns). Little does it matter that smoking could kill you at 70 as opposed to 30 using an FDA approved "safe and effective" product.
 
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wfx

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When my little girl started turning blue because she couldn't breath and we rushed her to the ER in a panic- Big Pharma provided the drug that helped her to breath.
Big Pharma keeps my clients from killing themselves or others.
Big Pharma helps to maintain blood sugar and blood pressure for those who might have issues with this, due to poor diet or genes.
I could go on and on, but what's the point?

sure, pharma produces life saving, life improving drugs. that's the side they want you to see.

behind the curtain there is some serious greed and market manipulation going on. that's just 'big business' and capitalism? no, that's causing injuries and deaths.

horse is out of the barn, but if we could pull back the drug ads that would solve the problem. i'm thinking along the lines of mandatory 'retraction' ads for advertised products that end up hurting people.
 

Sundrinkr

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Even knowing how bad the Chantix might be, I was willing to take the chance. I don't know if I had a mood change. Maybe I am just a ..... all the time lol. I did vomit almost daily, but other than that I noticed no other effects other than the blocking of the nicotine "feel good" part of my brain. Cigarettes were killing me -- almost actually did, right there on the operating table when I quit breathing for "a few minutes", according to the doctor. I now have a permanent numb area on my lip due to resuscitation efforts but at least I am alive and that will always remind me of the risks of smoking analogs. I think every person has to judge for himself just what risks he is willing to take. Yes, BT sucks the big one. BP IS out to make as much money as they can. It is up to you to be an informed consumer and along with your doctor decide what meds might be right for you. jmo.....
Now, if I had tried to stop smoking by vaping, I might have accomplished the task via a MUCH easier route. To me, stopping smoking meant no nicotine. Now I know that it not necessary. And Thank the heavens for ECF and its many, kind members.
 

tonyorion

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I am a widower, and my wife died of a really strange form of cancer not related to tobacco. However, my daughter put a gun to my head and extracted a promise from me to quit smoking when I asked her what she wanted as a gift for getting her MBA. She said the loss of one parent was enough. In any event, I went to my doctor and asked about what was available as smoking cessation, and she refused to prescribe Chantix or any patch but suggested ecigs as the far lesser of the evils.

We in the US seem to have a totally perverted sense of personal freedom at times and our right to information. In many of the countries of the EU, you cannot advertise prescription drugs (neither can attorneys or doctors for that matter). Yet a whopping 30 to 40% of pharmaceutical revenues goes into sales and marketing. So promotions generate these ludicrous 60 second commercials with 50 seconds of disclaimers which are spoken at ridiculous speeds and are barely intelligiblele; these ads are targeted at a nation which does not even rank in the top 20 in math, science, reading and writing scores. Who pays for these ads: we do!

It's a Catch 22 situation. We spend more on health care but are getting less; smoking cessation drugs are only the tip of the iceberg in that we treat sickness rather than try to prevent it. The US spends the most as a percentage of GDP on health care, and yet is ranked only 37th by the World Health Organization in health care. If the AVERAGE US Citizen had available and affordable health care, he/she would go to a doctor who has spent at least a decade of his/her life studying medicine when something ails them, but the AVERAGE US citizen does not go to a doctor because it costs too much. Instead, we rely on television for our medical advice.
 
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fumarole

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The beauty of the pharma model is that their products are purposed toward human wellness, so that the corporate business model can escape much of the criticism that would otherwise be leveled at it. For every person who points out the problems pharma cause, another ten will chime in with a reprimand because surely pharma are only there for our good.

Of course they do good, or rather, many of their products do. Against that, you need to set the fact that they are a poisonous cancer that has its tendrils anywhere and everywhere they can make a buck, by perverting the way things work in order to shift the money in their direction, and it certainly doesn't matter if people get hurt in the process. At least with the tobacco industry, everyone knows they are merchants of death. With pharma, they come in the guise of an angel; but the truth is that - taken as a whole - they are an angel of death. Look at how they operate:

- In the US, because the market is so immense, they spend hundreds of millions on lobbying. Their declared lobbying spend in 2009 was $264m, and they had more reps in Washington than there were Congressmen.

- Their principal PR and legislative pressure effort, though, is handled by their front groups. They own about ten 'alphabet soup' pseudo-health organizations with names like the American Chest Association who are funded by and work to the agenda of the pharma industry. The job of these groups is to carry out astroturfing PR on behalf of pharma - they act as if they were genuine health groups seeking improvements in funding for research, and seeking new legislation to improve health. In fact they work strictly to the orders of the industry and receive hundreds of millions of dollars for doing so. A Director of one of these 'charities' can earn $750,000 for example, and some have over a hundred board members. Their job is to influence the media and government, always to pharma's benefit, and always to protect or improve profits. And their main job is the most important of all: to get legislation that eliminates commercial rivals and helps pharma create more profits.

- A secondary front is fought for them by TC, tobacco control. The researchers, academics and others who comprise the tobacco control industry are a highly vocal and influential force in health policies and legislation. Almost all of them depend in one way or another on pharma funding. TC is now the single largest factor in the continuing loss of life due to smoking, as they have resisted tobacco harm reduction with a bitter campaign of propaganda and lies. Consequently, the reduction in the smoking death rate in developed countries falls at a pathetic and hardly noticeable rate (0.4% per year in the UK, for example). In Sweden it fell by 40% due to tobacco harm reduction. E-cigarettes hold the promise of exceeding that rate by a very wide margin. Ask yourself why anyone would oppose the single thing that is proven to work, and try to maintain the status quo even when that means hundreds of thousands of needless deaths every year. Answer: pharma funding, and therefore their jobs, is at stake. Tobacco Control are pharma's whores, and nothing more.

- Because e-cigarettes will grievously hurt pharma's bottom line, we have become their #1 target. NRT sales are a billion-dollar a year market, then add to that all the other quit-smoking drugs such as varenicline, buproprion and so on. But the chemotherapy drugs used to treat sick smokers, plus all the associated income streams, make that look like chump change. We are talking about billions and billions here - and the minimum that e-cigs will hit that bottom line by is 50%. In Sweden the number of smokers was reduced by 40%, and the number of smoking-related deaths by the same amount, as a result of Snus - and pharma is absolutely desperate to ensure the Sweden scenario does not spread. E-cigs are much more popular than Snus, as the uptake has eclipsed that for Snus, so pharma profits look to be in danger of taking more than a 40% hit - perhaps 50% or even as much as 60%. For every life saved by e-cigs, pharma loses several thousand dollars. Now multiply that by ten million, and you have their worst nightmare. They will do anything to prevent it, and the consequential death of hundreds of thousands - millions, in time - does not appear on their balance sheet.

- The Sweden scenario was so repugnant to them, they managed to engineer an EU-wide ban on Snus. This has been in existence for ten years. If the minimum percentage of lives that would have been saved in Europe is 10% of the annual 650,000 smoking deaths, and that would be 65,000 saved a year. In fact it would most likely be higher than this. You can chalk up hundreds of thousands of deaths in Europe directly to pharma protecting their income by suborning the EU health commission.

- Pharma's big guns are currently aimed at e-cigarettes, as this new form of THR will cut the number of smokers by an unprecedented amount - almost certainly more than Snus. By 2013, 6% of smokers in the US will have converted, and thus be lost to pharma: no more NRT sales, and a much-reduced likelihood of needing chemotherapy drugs and all the other treatments. It is impossible for an e-cigarette to cause lung cancer as there is no smoke. Pharma's money has been judiciously placed, and easily-suborned countries have banned e-cigs. Now we await a Europe-wide ban since the EU have shown themselves happy to take the money at any price, and the price of an EU ban on e-cigs will be millions of unnecessary deaths from smoking; every one of which can be laid at pharma's door.

- The medical profession and the health industry as a whole have been so perverted by the pharmaceutical industry that they are now incapable of thinking and acting for themselves. They end up, every time, working to pharma's advantage, in every aspect of their endeavours. Take any and every aspect of the health industry's operations, and see if you can find a way - any way - that it works to the detriment of pharma's interests, even (and especially even) when it is not in the best interests of patients. The basics of Western medicine are now quite simply surgery or pharmaceutical interventions. Until very recently, anything else was regarded as quackery - nutrition for example. There is still intense pressure to see anything other than the knife or pills as non-mainstream medicine. Even these other avenues like nutrition have cleverly been brought under pharma's influence. In Europe, pharma has successfully managed to elimainate a very large percentage of natural health supplements and nutritional aids, by forcing them to qualify as medicines, at huge cost, or be withdrawn. Few small manufacturers can afford the £750,000 and three years it takes to get a pharmaceutical license, and as a consequence withdrew their products or went under. How's that for harmless plant extracts that have been used safely for 50 years? Their sin was that they took money out of pharma's pocket - so they had to go.

- Pharma owns government, at least in any sphere related to medicine. A big statement to make, but you only need to look at actions, not words, to see this. They certainly own the FDA, whose staff will be the first to tell you this. Their staff have even been told by senior management that their client is the pharmaceutical industry, not the general public. The FDA works to protect the pharma industry, not the public. If public good accords with pharma's, then all is fine; but consider what happens when the two diverge. Who wins then, at the FDA? Clue: it's not the public.

Please note that in the above discussion, we are talking always about senior management, not the rank and file. The doctors, academics and technicians who work for these organizations do their best; but management decide the final result. It's why the evidence-based decisions of FDA technical staff are overturned in favor of better-paying decisions (for pharma), by management. Just look up the history.

The greatest success of the pharmaceutical industry has been to persuade people that their intentions are good, instead of being seen for what they are: a profit-hungry cancer that kills hundreds of thousands to make their money. Pharma is a corporate income generator like any other: money is the goal. Like any other business, they have to eliminate compeitors in order to maximise profits; but the problem is that because of the market they are in, their competitors are often doing a much better job. That doesn't matter to a balance sheet.

Pharma will sell you a pill to fix your problem, as long as it pays. But beware if you can fix people better, faster and cheaper than pharma - they'll eliminate you in a heartbeat. And if keeping their hands on the money kills millions, well, that's life. The big guy wins.

Wake up.
 

wfx

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- Pharma owns government, at least in any sphere related to medicine. A big statement to make, but you only need to look at actions, not words, to see this. They certainly own the FDA, whose staff will be the first to tell you this. Their staff have even been told by senior management that their client is the pharmaceutical industry, not the general public. The FDA works to protect the pharma industry, not the public. If public good accords with pharma's, then all is fine; but consider what happens when the two diverge. Who wins then, at the FDA? Clue: it's not the public.

excellent post. a very thorough indictment. on the above, i'm sure there are some troubled folks on staff at the FDA. are whistleblower protections and incentives not effective here? the lies are so open and notorious that everybody throws up their hands and says 'that's just how it is'?
 

Midcoast

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sure, pharma produces life saving, life improving drugs. that's the side they want you to see.

behind the curtain there is some serious greed and market manipulation going on. that's just 'big business' and capitalism? no, that's causing injuries and deaths.

horse is out of the barn, but if we could pull back the drug ads that would solve the problem. i'm thinking along the lines of mandatory 'retraction' ads for advertised products that end up hurting people.

I absolutely agree- and I think there should be a ban on advertising prescription drugs- things have gotten much worse since that started... of course the same politicians who "support" ecigs would be incredibly opposed to this sort of "big gummint regulation".

Of course it isn't always easy to say what pharmaceuticals cause harm- pretty much any drug has risks...
 

jbilod1

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Wal-Mart is playing to the Pharma Co. game now too. Big shiny display for nic gum and patches that is highlighted by the big High Def TV that runs the commercials on a loop. This display is right on the main isle of the store. Oddly enough, Rite Aid, an actual pharmacy, has disposable e-cigs right at the front counter.
 

ByStander1

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My, my, fumarole, I got a lump in my throat reading that. If only we could get that piece in with the weekly mailbox barrage of coupons nationwide!!!

Insofar as BP producing things that work...they kinda have to on occasion, don't they? I mean, a light bulb manufacturer whose bulbs don't glow when electricity flows through them would go belly-up pretty quickly, right?
 

fumarole

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I believe the pharmaceutical industry would have a very hard time arguing that it is no less evil than the tobacco industry, if you collated all their misdeeds, combined it with their cynical regard for life and their deliberate suborning of whole countries, and put all that on the table for discussion.

The key factor is the hypocrisy and subterfuge with which they operate. They are absolutely as willing to kill for profit as BT is, but would deny that just as strenuously as BT used to. It's just that they haven't been exposed yet by the media and the lawyers.

Lots of things they make work very well and do a good job. Nobody is arguing that. But if you think their guilt is being exaggerated, try justifying the Snus ban they paid for, which has killed hundreds of thousands in Europe. A 40% reduction of the death rate in Sweden -- banned everywhere else. E-cigarettes come along, and have even more promise -- pharma's friends get into action again.

How many do they need to kill before people wake up?
 
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