Big Tobacco: Champions of E-Cigs?

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kwalka

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Can one stop Walmart .. ?? A tiny fraction of communities have .. but you don't want to be the guy selling lawnmowers next to a Walmart Super Store ..

Is a boycott of Blu going to be effective .. ?? How many of us on ECF use Blu now and by stopping would hurt sales .. ?? It's the existing smoker that's the target .. and they likely want a unit that looks like a traditional cig ..

On a side note .. has anyone considered that this scenario may actually help the smaller vendors .. ?? There will be those, like many of us, that will want to upgrade at some point ..

Walmart obviously no. Boycott of Blu is silly. It was actually mentioned by a member today possibly in this thread. Point is Blu doesn't make $ off of ECFers. They do and will continue to make their $ off of the unknowing and the newbies who will accept Blu as the be all end all and will never look any farther. The sheer volume of being in every Sheets, Cumberland farms, and Walgreens stores will bring in a tremendous amount of $.
No I dont think it will help small vendors because in my scenario they will force the market to be only their products and their cartridges therefore killing the existing small vendors who didnt have the foresight to band together while they still had time to establish a somewhat powerfull entity that could fight the regulation.
 

DaveP

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BT is and has always been about enlarging customer base. They went as far as designing the product to be more addictive, more seductive, and they created an aura in advertising that painted pictures of athletes, cowboys, and alluring females. They are a crafty bunch that are masters in advertising and promotion schemes.

I wouldn't mind some quality monitoring of those who create juices just to make sure that they are shipping what they market and that the ingredients are pure and safe. That in itself would take the kitchen factories out of the loop. That's not to say that home brew juices can't be outstanding, just that there are so many who are marginally knowledgeable at the start. I don't want to be anyone's guinea pig.
 

kristin

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I take it a lot of people posting on this thread haven't been following this thread: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/media-general-news/290817-lorillard-purchases-blu-e-cigs.html

Most of the fears of what Lorillard/Big Tobacco will or won't do have been covered there. But I will summarize:

1) It is illogical to think that the tobacco industry, which is seeing declines in cigarette sales and has been expanding into the tobacco harm reduction/smoke-free products, would buy into e-cigarettes and then attempt to halt any and all innovation and options that would basically stall and then kill the e-cigarette market. These are companies that have been around for a couple hundred years, have adapted to changing social attitudes and already attempt to offer dozens of options for tobacco consumers. It would make no sense for them to limit themselves to mass-market, pre-filled, tobacco-only flavored devices.

2) The selling points of e-cigarettes are A) lower cost than smoking B) 99% safer than smoking. It would make no sense for BT to support regulations and taxes that would make e-cigarettes as expensive as cigarettes and to add toxic chemicals that make them dangerous, which would lose consumer confidence in the product. Especially since there are a lot of other options for tobacco users to move to if they have no confidence in the e-cigarettes - some are even being developed by Big Pharma. SO it is completely illogical to think that BT will go happily along with taxes on e-cigs or add toxins (really, how would they do that with a product that contains only 3-5 ingredients??) that will make their products LESS desirable to their customers? The very reason people give that BT will ruin e-cigs (greed) is the same exact reason why BT would want to make e-cigarettes better, more appealing to smokers, offer more variety, retain customers from switching to another brand of e-cig or gums/patches. Contrary to popular opinion, BT doesn't want it's customers diseased or dying (that's the ANTZ/ BP wet dream). E-cigarettes are a win-win for BT - people who switch to e-cigs mostly don't really WANT to quit nicotine or the habit, they just don't want to die. Most e-cig users, unlike smokers, have no intention of quitting, so BT wouldn't have any reason to try to make them "more addictive" or lure in kids.

3) Most important point. EVERYTHING you THINK you know about big, bad, evil tobacco companies came from the same ANTZ who are now telling us and the public that e-cigarettes are targeting youth, contain toxic chemicals and carcinogens and aren't any safer than smoking. We all know those are lies and trust me - they aren't just "misunderstanding." So, how can we now believe anything we've been told by them about tobacco and tobacco companies? We know now how much they twist the truth and even lie outright. They will say any lie to get people to quit all tobacco or recreational nicotine - they've PROVEN that with the lies about e-cigarettes, low-risk smoke-free tobaccos and the "effectiveness" of their crappy gums and patches. How do we know that what we've been told about tobacco companies adding ammonia to make them more addictive, targeting kids, etc. aren't all twisting of the facts to achieve their prohibitionist agenda? What proof do we have - other than claims from the ANTZ - who we know lie?? Tobacco companies have been making much safer, low risk products for YEARS now and the ANTZ have been telling us that they aren't any safer and relying on the fear, loathing and distrust they created of BT to keep us in line (and smoking instead of switching.)

Who benefits most from everyone distrusting BT? The ANTZ and Big Pharma. who benefits if we get sick from smoking? Big Pharma.

How ironic that the only industry that supports the right for adults to use recreational nicotine, has been developing much safer alternatives and has bought into e-cigarettes as tobacco harm reduction products is Tobacco and the groups who have been telling us BT is the evil one are the ones who actually benefit more if we keep smoking, keep trying to quit and keep getting smoking-related diseases.

4) BT will target kids with e-cigs? First, see above points. Second - why would they even need to when they have 450 million existing adult smokers?? The kid targeting is a myth created by ANTZ. Ask yourself - did you start smoking because of ads by BT? No - none does, but the ANTZ want us to believe it to perpetuate the "evil tobacco" image so they can continue to treat smokers like crap, while collecting their taxes and money for their Big Pharma products. If Big Tobacco ever targeted youth with their Joe Camel-style ads it was to get youth who were already smoking to switch. Research shows that kids start smoking because their friends or family are smokers, not because of ads. So Big Tobacco doesn't even need to target kids to get them to START - parents and friends are doing it for them.

Really folks - don't fall for the idea that BT is somehow special in it's ability to be corrupted by greed. They didn't do anything that the ANTZ and Big Pharma are doing right now - by relying on this myth they perpetuated that Big Tobacco and all its products are evil, so you should trust BP and the ANTZ. It's just another tactic to get you to buy THEIR products instead.
 
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Uncle Willie

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BT is and has always been about enlarging customer base. They went as far as designing the product to be more addictive, more seductive, and they created an aura in advertising that painted pictures of athletes, cowboys, and alluring females. They are a crafty bunch that are masters in advertising and promotion schemes.

I wouldn't mind some quality monitoring of those who create juices just to make sure that they are shipping what they market and that the ingredients are pure and safe. That in itself would take the kitchen factories out of the loop. That's not to say that home brew juices can't be outstanding, just that there are so many who are marginally knowledgeable at the start. I don't want to be anyone's guinea pig.

Any number of corporations can and do make their product out to be as sexy and hip as humanly possible .. and it's generally an advertising agency that does it for them ..

At the risk of going off on a total tangent, I'm sure most of the Mom and Pop liquid shops are concerned, caring folks that want to make some money .. and there is nothing wrong with that .. the problem is there are no checks and balances and we are the ones trusting that home brew .. is that bad .. ?? Well yes .. if there were 100 varieties of catsup, each with a little different taste, and each being mixed up by a different person, would we trust that each vendor would consistently put forth a product that was 100% safe to eat at all times .. ?? Knowing that no one is actually testing that catsup before we put it on some fries .. ??
 

kristin

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Kristin .. no disrespect, but my eyes generally roll back in my head when I see posts that drum out your well known position .. your dislike and liberal use of your favorite target is legendary ..

I was directed to this thread by another member who asked me to post my thoughts. I'm sure my posts aren't as well-known as you make them out to be.

This isn't about targeting any industry. It's to get people to think about why they vilify BT and where what they accept as "fact" about tobacco and BT came from. I simply use BP as a way to get them to think about how their addiction and tobacco use didn't JUST benefit BT, so BT cannot be the only one culpable. Therefore, BT isn't any more evil than those other industries that benefited from us smoking and lied. And if BT isn't really inherently evil, there is no reason to fear them getting into the e-cigarette market more than any other industry who decided to get into selling e-cigarettes (including the existing companies who sell e-cigarettes.)
 

kwalka

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Any number of corporations can and do make their product out to be as sexy and hip as humanly possible .. and it's generally an advertising agency that does it for them ..

At the risk of going off on a total tangent, I'm sure most of the Mom and Pop liquid shops are concerned, caring folks that want to make some money .. and there is nothing wrong with that .. the problem is there are no checks and balances and we are the ones trusting that home brew .. is that bad .. ?? Well yes .. if there were 100 varieties of catsup, each with a little different taste, and each being mixed up by a different person, would we trust that each vendor would consistently put forth a product that was 100% safe to eat at all times .. ?? Knowing that no one is actually testing that catsup before we put it on some fries .. ??

Oh but UW, we can all sleep easy at night when it comes to food and drugs because we have the FDA looking out for us.
 

Squish

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If I were to speculate, I'd venture to guess that re-fillable carts made by BT would be made available by BT .. whether they go so far as to replace other TOBACCO constituents, maybe .. although some of that is already available ..

I think one of the primary benefits is consistency of product, both hardware as well as liquid ..

Liquid is a sore spot with me in the current market .. I actually do random test what I use and there just is no consistency .. and the margin for error is sometimes + / - 40% ..

Maybe Canada is ahead of the game here, we have the ECTA (electronic cigarette trade association) where members regularly submit their liquids for all kinds of testing. Not all Canadian venders are members, nor do they have to be, but some find it helps to trust in the quality/consistency of their juice. Perhaps it's time for the US to implement a similar association?
 

DaveP

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I'm old enough to remember the Kent Micronite filter that was supposed to make smoking safe through its advanced design. Well, it turned out that asbestos wasn't a good thing to inhale tobacco smoke through and BT got their pants sued off from the inordinate number of Kent smokers who inhaled fibers and developed carcinomas.

Call me cautious, but I think they'd massage the formula to increase vaping satisfaction. If that means vapers come back for more because a certain company's juice is more satisfying, then I'd be suspicious. They did it with tobacco, why not juice?

Tobacco companies engineer high addiction cigarettes with additives
 
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Uncle Willie

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I was directed to this thread by another member who asked me to post my thoughts. I'm sure my posts aren't as well-known as you make them out to be.

This isn't about targeting any industry. It's to get people to think about why they vilify BT and where what they accept as "fact" about tobacco and BT came from. I simply use BP as a way to get them to think about how their addiction and tobacco use didn't JUST benefit BT, so BT cannot be the only one culpable. Therefore, BT isn't any more evil than those other industries that benefited from us smoking and lied. And if BT isn't really inherently evil, there is no reason to fear them getting into the e-cigarette market more than any other industry who decided to get into selling e-cigarettes (including the existing companies who sell e-cigarettes.)

This is pretty much the same point I've made in this thread and others ..
 

kwalka

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Although no system is perfect, you would be OK with none .. ?? Come on now ..

I was kidding, but when you put it that way, I have to consider it seriously. I'm not totally sure we wouldnt be better off w/o the FDA. Think about how corrupt they are. Their answer to smoking is a bunch of worthless items, some even arguably dangerous. Chantix for one. Also what they could possibly end up doing to the e cig industry, yes I think a free market would come up with better solutions than them bunch of corrupt idiots.
 

DaveP

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I was kidding, but when you put it that way, I have to consider it seriously. I'm not totally sure we wouldnt be better off w/o the FDA. Think about how corrupt they are. Their answer to smoking is a bunch of worthless items, some even arguably dangerous. Chantix for one. Also what they could possibly end up doing to the e cig industry, yes I think a free market would come up with better solutions than them bunch of corrupt idiots.

Control always leads to more complications. That said, we are better off with ecigs being declared tobacco products than we would have been had they been classified as pharmaceuticals. With the Pharma stamp, they would likely be costly and highly regulated. The Blu brand being sold by BT will give us more power in general with the government. It may also lead to more regulations, some of which small business can't afford. I hope that doesn't happen.

Look for a federal tax on juice to start with, now that there's a large company to levy it upon. Trickle down taxes will migrate to the small companies once that happens.
 
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EleanorR

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Kristin .. no disrespect, but my eyes generally roll back in my head when I see posts that drum out your well known position .. your dislike and liberal use of your favorite target is legendary ..

And yet -- Kristin is 1000% correct.

"B-b-b-but -- I saw this MOVIE they made in HOLLYWOOD -- so everything in it MUST be gospel TRVTH!!!"

The health risks from tobacco cigarettes come from the combustion of the tobacco leaf, not from any processing methods and means (widely used in commercial food products) that allow the tobacco to be turned into consistent "sheets" which can then be rolled into nice, predictable, uniform products. :facepalm:
 

Uncle Willie

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And yet -- Kristin is 1000% correct.

"B-b-b-but -- I saw this MOVIE they made in HOLLYWOOD -- so everything in it MUST be gospel TRVTH!!!"

The health risks from tobacco cigarettes come from the combustion of the tobacco leaf, not from any processing methods and means (widely used in commercial food products) that allow the tobacco to be turned into consistent "sheets" which can then be rolled into nice, predictable, uniform products. :facepalm:

There is no 1000%, or 110% .. sorry ..

And the rest of your post makes no sense .. :nah:
 

EleanorR

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It's a device called "hyperbole."

The ""I saw it in a movie, therefore it must be true" comment was not directed at you, but rather at others who have been systematically misinformed.

The rest of the post would make perfect sense if you knew how commercial cigarettes are made. (Hint: I.e., the BS re "Adding ammonia to make cigs MORE ADDICTIVE AIYEEEEEEE!!!!")
 

DC2

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Kristin .. no disrespect, but my eyes generally roll back in my head when I see posts that drum out your well known position .. your dislike and liberal use of your favorite target is legendary ..
And when I see Kristin post I have the exact opposite reaction...
So my question to you would be which part of what she says do you disagree with?
 

kookycole

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@Kristin
Thanks for your post. I actually was not familiar with your point of view, and it has made me rethink some things. There were a lot of points that you made that sounded entirely logical to me. Hopefully, Blu will act in a logical manner, although I've found that it isn't always the case with people or corporations. BTW, I thought the commercial for Blu was well-done. Hopefully, the people that purchase it and think that it is a sub-par product will find their way to this forum instead of giving up on electronic cigarettes entirely.
 

DC2

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I look for the partnership between Blu and Johnson Creek to continue to strengthen.
I can see them merging at some point, or Johnson Creek also being bought out by Lorillard.

Either way, I think we'll see the new Ego-type model from Johnson Creek (the Vea) become part of the arsenal.

And down the road, perhaps not too far off, I'm sure we will see more Big Tobacco players jumping in the game.
And then the competition for customers will begin, and the rising tide will raise all boats.

Competition for price, for quality, and for wider array of options will become the business model.
I find it hard to see it shaking out any other way.
:)
 
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