BMJ: E-cig reports confllict

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PlanetScribbles

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I would really appreciate it if you could provide me with results from experimental or clinical trials conducted by an independent expert showing that, as you suggest, “...e-cigarettes do not expose the user or bystandters to tar, carbon monoxide, or particles of tobacco and paper ash.
This part speaks volumes about how they will twist data to be used as a smokescreen. Statements like this use a negative language to associate the evils of analogs to vaping.

I don't need a clinical study to show that ecigs will not expose people to chemicals and substances that aren't even in the device or juice.

It is arguments like that that tell you that these people have no interest in listening to reasoned and logical debate. They have already made up their mind. How TF is a product going to expel paper ash when there is no paper in the product? Tar? WTF is the tar supposed to come from? Does it magically materialise from quantum dark matter when PG is vaporised? Tar is a product of combustion!
Hello, McFly? Anyone in there? :nah:
You would get a more logical response from a sand hopper than this organisation, one that obviously refuses to accept the obvious. Their argument is frivolous at best and irrational at the very least.

Thank goodness that the BMJ seem to be in the minority over here. Most rational people see these things as a good thing.
 
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ALC

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I think if we really want a study and put all the debates to rest, we need a famous figurehead to advertise the product. That would stir up enough publicity to make this a bigger issue and make the FDA get off their lazy butts and start the trials. I think someone had a valid point with the production of vapor resembling smoke. I ended up buying a lot of batteries in colors other than white for that reason. It is funny how I am still treated like a 3rd class citizen for trying an alternative to analogs. I thought people were always outraged by the smell more than anything. I find now that people still give that disgusted look when they see you puff on something that in my opinion is the best alternative to date. People need to stop and realize that everyone on the planet has a vice of some sort. Just because you choose to hide your vices does not make you better. Sorry I just had to vent on that one for a minute. I am so sick of all the negative feed back given to people who truly want to better their lives by e-cigs. I also feel that people who have never smoked need to keep their research and opinions to themselves. I am sooo glad that this forum exists so someone like me can have a sense of encouragement and accomplishment for making the switch and trying to be healthier. Even my family, other than my daughter, thinks that they are dangerous and I would be better slapping patches all over my body just because they are sold over-the-counter. ARRRGGGHHH!!!!
 

PlanetScribbles

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I think if we really want a study and put all the debates to rest, we need a famous figurehead to advertise the product. That would stir up enough publicity to make this a bigger issue and make the FDA get off their lazy butts and start the trials. I think someone had a valid point with the production of vapor resembling smoke. I ended up buying a lot of batteries in colors other than white for that reason. It is funny how I am still treated like a 3rd class citizen for trying an alternative to analogs. I thought people were always outraged by the smell more than anything. I find now that people still give that disgusted look when they see you puff on something that in my opinion is the best alternative to date. People need to stop and realize that everyone on the planet has a vice of some sort. Just because you choose to hide your vices does not make you better. Sorry I just had to vent on that one for a minute. I am so sick of all the negative feed back given to people who truly want to better their lives by e-cigs. I also feel that people who have never smoked need to keep their research and opinions to themselves. I am sooo glad that this forum exists so someone like me can have a sense of encouragement and accomplishment for making the switch and trying to be healthier. Even my family, other than my daughter, thinks that they are dangerous and I would be better slapping patches all over my body just because they are sold over-the-counter. ARRRGGGHHH!!!!

You are right. Similar to what Joanna Lumley did for the Gurkhas over here last year? She took the establishment to the cleaners lol
 

CJsKee

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Damn, Elaine, you are good!!! CASAA, et al. are very lucky to have you :D

And yes, you're correct that he totally missed your point, the fool! Dr. Mike talks about this report in his blog today. Following is a quote that I think very well sums up the entire situation...

"This trilogy is dedicated to the late Mr. [C.S.] Lewis, who long ago realized that science was being politicized, that its primary goal was changing from knowledge to power, that it was also becoming scientism, and that in the ism is the end of humanity."
Dean Koontz, Dean Koontz's Frankenstein, dead and alive, Book Three

Mr. Koontz is spot on!
 

420GypsyGirl

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Did the guy that wrote you that response do any kind of research on the product he is pointing fingers at? Tar, ash? Ummm...does he think this is a cigarette that burns organic material? This guy needs educated and I do hope you wrote him back and explained that such things cannot be found in the vapor of an e-cigarette because you need the right kind of combustable material to be present to produce it.
 

FizzleFisch

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........

Hello? Is it just me, or did he totally miss my points that e-cigarette manufacturers are not pharmaceutical companies, the product isn't being positioned as a medical treatment, and people are dying while we fart around jumping through his holy hoops?


Nawww Vocalek.... I'm afraid it's just you :)rolleyes:)

He didn't *miss* your points ......

It's pretty clear to me... (and I suspect most others here....)
He just flat-out ignored virtually everything you offered in the exchange.

.....:mad:

And sadly, that.. is a prime example of why such dialogues as this (with folks like him).... have been so utterly disappointing and discouraging. :(

I'm sorry you had to suffer such ridiculous nonsense.
I'm sorry we must all apparently have to.:(

fisch
 
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Vocalek

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...responding to such provocative statements on his part.

Perhaps our failure to see eye-to-eye is rooted in the fact that we are asking different questions in our quest for knowledge. You are asking, "Have electronic cigarettes been proven safe?" My question is "Are electronic cigarettes likely to be less harmful to me than continued smoking?"

I missed the part of your take-home message that "e-cigarettes may well be an excellent product." Apparently, the popular press missed the message as well, since "E-cigarettes do more harm than good" is perpetuating across the web as a headline based on the BBC coverage of your article.

I agree with you that there is no evidence one way or another on the long-term effects on health of the e-cigarette. But we do have a lot more evidence than "unsubstantiated manufacturer's claims" regarding safety of e-cigarettes compared to the safety of continued smoking. And we also have more than manufacturer’s claims regarding the short-term health effects on users.

An obvious way to compare potential relative safety is to look at the number and quantities of known harmful substances in each of the two alternatives. You reviewed three testing reports. Did any of these reports mention finding tar or particles of ash in the vapor? I am guessing that none of the three labs would have wasted their time and money looking for substances that are created by the process of combustion, in view of the fact that e-cigarettes use the process of vaporization.

Regarding carbon monoxide, Dr. Laugesen actually tested the exhaled CO of human subjects who were inhaling vaporized nicotine from an e-cigarette and compared it to subjects exhaling after smoking tobacco. Apparently you do not have this report, because Dr. Laugesen tells me that the information in your article relies on the limited data from a poster that he presented before the complete report was available. I am attaching a copy of the complete report. You will find the CO information on page 19. “Results. The tobacco cigarette boosted CO in exhaled breath by an average of 5 ppm, but did not increase it at all in the non-smoker inhaling from the Ruyan® e-cigarette.”

So I stand by my statement regarding the lack of tar, CO, and particulates in e-cigarette vapor. If these are not present, it would be impossible for users or bystanders to be exposed to them, no? But if you fear these might be present, I would be happy to send you a box or two of cartridges so that you may conduct your own tests.

I am very surprised that you failed to mention shortcomings of the FDA test report in your article. You appeared to give it equal weight with the other two test reports. Did you not notice that there were no quantities reported for the "carcinogens" they found? Isn't a quantitative analysis something that should be in a lab report of this type? On page 6 of 8, the report reads, “TSNA content is reported as weight of TSNA per weight of nicotine/flavorant cartridge (ng/g).” Apparently FDA did conduct the quantitative analysis, but the results expressed as ng/g are nowhere to be found in their report.

Your article made a point of mentioning that HNZ’s analysis was funded by an e-cigarette manufacturer. If you take into account the fact that the FDA issued their report while they were in the midst of a lawsuit, then they have every bit as much of a vested interest in skewing the results as a manufacturer would, if the manufacturer conducted their own testing in-house, as the FDA did. As it stands, however, the manufacturers have hired qualified outside labs to do their testing.

You do Dr. Laugesen a great disservice when you hint that his scientific findings can be purchased. Dr. Laugesen is a greatly respected, award-winning anti-smoking advocate in New Zealand.

May I suggest that you contact Dr. Westenberger at the FDA and ask him to send you the data on TSNA quantities that were missing from his report. Also, he should be able to supply data on the TSNAs and quantities that are present in the FDA-approved NRT products. I have written and asked him for this information, and he never replied to my letter. Perhaps you will have better luck.

Here is his address:

Westenberger, B.J.
Food and Drug Administration
Division of Pharmaceutical Analysis
1114 Market Street, St. Louis , MO 63101

The Health New Zealand report provided the information for me that the FDA report lacked. Table 2.2 on page 7 specifies the quantities of TSNA's found in each of four levels of nicotine. The comment under the table reads as follows: "Tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNAs) were found, equal to 8 ng, in the 1 g of liquid of the 16 mg cartridge. This amount is extremely small, equal for example, to the amount reported to be present in a nicotine medicinal patch. (8 ng in 1g = eight parts per trillion)."


So, even though I do not have any clinical trials to back up my conclusion, logic tells me that if the type and quantity of carcinogens in both are equal, then it follows that there is no evidence the e-cigarette is any more likely to cause cancer than a nicotine patch. And again, with only logic as my guide, I have concluded that cigarette smoke, with 5,500 to 11,000 ng/g in a day’s supply, would be a lot more likely to cause cancer than either an e-cigarette or a nicotine patch. I’m not saying this is absolute proof that smoking is more dangerous than inhaling vaporized nicotine, mind you. I am saying it gives most folks sufficient evidence to make a rational decision about which of the two alternatives might present a greater danger to their health.

Finally, we come to your assertion “there is absolutely no knowledge of its health effects in animals or humans.” I have very personal knowledge of its health effect on one human—me. I used to lie in bed at night, listening to myself wheeze. Sometimes the wheezing woke up me in the middle of the night. I used to pray that God would send me something that would allow me to stop smoking without requiring me to sacrifice my cognitive and emotional health—as happened when I went the nicotine abstinence route.

Guess what! No more wheezing. The “productive cough” is gone. I can actually laugh out loud now, without being interrupted by a coughing fit. My BP is improved (117/79), and my cholesterol numbers have changed: HDL is up by 4 points and LDL is down by 1. So where you see a potential menace, I see measurable evidence of a personal miracle.

I believe that it would be monumentally stupid on my part to go back to inhaling tobacco smoke while I wait around hoping that FDA will put its stamp of approval on the e-cigarette. And I also believe that it is monumentally stupid for smokers to continue inhaling smoke, when vaporized nicotine contains so many fewer toxic and carcinogenic substances and thousands and thousands of e-cigarette users who have stopped (or even just reduced) smoking are reporting improved health.

Smoking kills. Smokers don’t have time to wait around for absolute proof that e-cigarettes are safer than smoking. Just as there is no convincing evidence yet that e-cigarettes are safe, there is no convincing evidence that they are as unsafe as tobacco smoking. Urging smokers to wait and see will prove to be a death sentence for many. It has been estimated that just one more month of continued smoking presents more danger to health than switching to Swedish snus and continuing to use it for the rest of one’s life.

I would welcome clinical trials, but I believe, given what we do know about the subject, that it would be unethical and immoral to make completion of these trials a prerequisite for allowing smokers to choose e-cigarettes as an alternative.

I suspect that when all the evidence is in, we will find out that e-cigarettes are an alternative that reduces harm even more than Swedish snus. That is, if the evidence is ever allowed to be gathered. There are organizations that just want this product to go away.

"An electronic cigarette would have to be SO toxic to even come close to what cigarettes do to you ..." Dr. Dean Edell
 

Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah

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WOW!

Vocalek, you knocked it outta the park on your reply. Now let's hope the gentlemen at the other end of your response have the decency to read your words, reflect, and make a judgement based on reason, rather than spin and sensationilism.


CASAA (and all of us) are lucky to have you!!!
 

Vocalek

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:) I bask in the glow of your warm praises, my friends.

To tell the truth, I will be extremely surprised if he replies. I do understand his viewpoint. He is playing the part of the "objective scientist" who can't be bothered with considering the human questions.

There is this process in place that scientists and the FDA are deluded into thinking "proves" the safety of drugs before they are marketed. Of course, it does no such thing. But they cling to the ideal of this process with the fervor of a religious convert.

Actually, it isn't a bad process, per se. The process usually works to protect the health of the public. But there are times when the process interferes. Example: Back when AIDS was 100% fatal, the FDA wanted to stick to their guns and insist that any proposed treatment go through the same long, arduous process as any other drug. FDA was overruled in that case, because dying people are willing to take a lot more safety risks than people who can live with their disease.

Ours is another case when the affected "patient populaton" is willing to take a few more safety risks than most. This is especially true of the aging population that has already experienced some of the effects of long-term smoking. We are more likely than young people to admit that we are not invincible, and that smoking has harmful effects. We realize that the older we get, the less able our bodies are to repair themselves. We realize that some of the damage being done by each cigarette we smoke is irreversible. Dammit, in desperation we were willing to try really silling-sounding stuff like herbal remedies, hypnosis, acupuncture, and lazer treatments. In contrast, inhaling vaporized nicotine with many of the harmful substances removed just plain makes sense!

There is one more factor in play. No matter how carefully the FDA manages and controls that drug approval process, when the drug is approved for sale, nobody--not FDA, not the manufacuturer, not patients, not the general putlic--has a complete picture of the drug's risk profile. It isn't until the drug has been in general use for a couple of years that problems begin to crop up. That is Step 4 in the process. It is the reason why the MedWatch program exists.

If you want to insist that e-cigarettes are a medical treatment, then we would have to agree that e-cigarettes skipped Steps 2 and 3 (animal testing and human clinical trials.) However, we have been in Step 4 for several years. We are passing what is really the "acid test" to show absence of harm in a product.

Clinical trials for the nicotrol inhaler only tested the product on 730 patients. My guess would be that if you mutiply that by 1,000 you wil get the minimum number of U.S. smokers who have tried e-cigarettes.

"No serious adverse events were reported during the trials." Nicotrol NS Side Effects | Drugs.com

"...the risk of nicotine replacement in a smoking cessation program should be weighed against the hazard of continued smoking, and the likelihood of achieving cessation of smoking without nicotine replacement." - Pfizer​

http://www.pfizer.com/files/products/uspi_nicotrol_inhaler.pdf

And, as we all know, FDA failed to submit any evidence that people are bieng harmed by the e-cigarettes.
 
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