building the ultimate bottom feeder

[turbocad6]

hey guys and gals, my name is John and I'm not so new to this but I haven't really been so active on the forums past few years, mainly because when I started I just found what I liked and stuck with it and have had no real issues for over 2 years. I winded up picking up a pure smoker V3 and then eventually there smaller icon and both have been serving me very well... I tried cartos but they just didn't do it for me and I only used drip tip atty's and I've always been pretty satisfied for the past few years but recently my whole army of batteries has depleted and I've ran out of supplies here and there and I started to get to the point of not having what I needed to satisfy myself so in a pinch I winded up picking up a few of the semi disposable jobs to hold me over and then hit the forum to see what's out there since I haven't really looked in a few years...

well as you may imagine there have of course been many advancements and sure I have winded up discovering a whole bunch of new toys that all pretty much try to replace dripping while still giving you an as close to drip type vape as possible... well I started to play again and I picked up a genny atty and some SS mesh and kanthal, I also picked up some tank clearo's, vivi novas and some other clear tank things, I picked up an EVIC cause it really looks cool but in person it does also really feel kind of cheap, I also picked up a Vmod on a whim and have been playing wit that too...

wow there certainly is more to this whole vaping thing than just dripping now a days and I have opened my eyes to several other options but still I compare every other type vape to what I had with dripping and while some do come kind of close sometimes, others really are more frustrating than good.. only took me a few weeks and a few hundred bucks to realize that the cheapo tanks and vivi's are just not for me but now when I do go back to dripping after seeing what it's like to not have to drip drip drip I now suddenly feel like dripping is more of a pain that I ever realized it was when it was all I knew

I have also been playing with the Vmod. now I'll be the first to say that it really is a cheap piece of crap, I winded up picking it up at a local vape shop and paid like $100 for it, but to me it looks like it should cost around $30 tops. I really do not like it as far as hardware is concerned, BUT, it has also at least done one thing for me, and that is it has shown me the real potential of the bottom feeding setup. right now it is my go to daily vape, not because it's so great or anything, but because it's so convenient and self contained. I can walk out of the house with nothing but this thing alone, and as long as today is not the day that I drop it and it explodes into 20 pieces then it get's me through the day.. I do carry my V3 with a RBA in my car incase of an emergency but so far the Vmod has been doing it, although I know it's days are numbered, I can't believe I haven't destroyed it yet but of course I do need something better as a long term solution

now I know that many here are going to say to get a REO, and honestly in a lot of ways I do agree... I almost bought one several times already and I may just buy one anyway,I mean it really is almost everything I could want in a bottom feed mod but I'm still not 100% sold on the whole squonking the plastic tank through a hole bit... yes it is simple and effective and it is probably one of the most decent solutions available but I'm a picky guy with a wild imagination and somehow I really want more...

I have looked at the billetbox and that thing is really beautiful but the whole cartos with a hole thing in a tank just doesn't really do it for me, since becoming exposed to wrapping my own coils I really don't want to go back to using disposables and the whole rebuildable diver thing just seems pretty tedious so I've pretty much decided against the BB. I also really like the DNA 20D chip, I've always been a straight up mechanical kind of guy but a regulated control like this really does have a lot going for it, aside from the control I really like the fact that it acts like a power relay and it makes the need for the switch to carry all the amperage obsolete, the only problems I've had through the years all pretty much stem from the switch and the amount of amperage it must carry, well an electronic relay means that a low amperage switch can be used, I like that, I also like the regulated features and the fact that it can do up to 20 watts... my sweet spot seems to be in the 13-15 watt range and a little headroom sounds like the best scenario, also really like the display.

I know the bogger box uses this chip but wood just isn't going to do it for me, I need/want something bulletproof like a BB or a REO, but with a DNA 20D chip and NO plastic tank, and for it to be a bottom feed... pretty tall order I know, and so far I have not found anything that really is exactly what I want so I have come to the conclusion that the only way to really get exactly what I want is to build it myself...

what I have in mind is to use a glass tank, must hold at least 5ml yet still be usable in a bottom feed design. my solution for this that I have come up with in my head is to use a plunger, similar to a syringe or similar to a piston in a combustion chamber, my device will have a trigger that when pressed will cycle this piston up and down a fixed amount, it would feed a fixed amount of juice up to the RBA sitting on top built into the device (no 510 connector) and then suck the excess back down so a perfect feed each time, much like a REO but with a fixed calibrated amount delivered... my scenario would be squeeze the trigger and vape, squeeze the trigger and vape, simple, totally leak proof even if left sideways or upside down...

now again, I know this is a tall order and I may be crazy for wanting to reinvent the wheel when a few devices are already available that almost give me everything i want, so my real question here, and one of the main reasons for me starting this thread is to A) find out if there is anything out there that I may not have seen yet that may come closer to what I'm really looking for and B) just get some input from other vapors who have also played around with many devices...

and just so you have an idea of where I'm coming from, I do have a background in mechanical and I do have a lathe and a mill, and I am NOT looking to become a vendor or mass produce what I am thinking of building. I have already ordered a DNA 20D chip and a selection of quartz glass tubing in several different sizes so I'm not just a dreamer with an impractical dream, or maybe I am and just don't know it yet


just get a REO, I know that will be the sane answer, and part of me is just keep saying that over and over to myself, but even if/when I do get a REO I think I will still want to pursue my idea of an all glass tank bottom feed design powered by the DNA chip, just because I really think that would be the ultimate...

any thoughts or input besides the obvious of "just get a REO" ??

 

[Statistic]

I think it sounds great. DNA20 sounds super legit for regulation so far, no personal experience with it yet.

I love the idea of having a glass tank with some sort of plunger to pressurize the tank.

There is one hitch in your spec list, imo. You discount wood from consideration for durability concerns. I'm with you there. Would the mod you envision survive a dunk in a pool? Would you be able to wash it with soap and water? It doesn't get much more durable than that, lol.

I'm not saying "just get a REO", I'd LOVE to see what you come up with even if it's a one-off. In fact you probably shouldn't get a REO or you might loose all motivation to build a better mod

Seriously though. If you could achieve your vision of the perfect mod, and it includes a DNA20 it would be truly badayuss if it was waterproof.

 

[EddieAdams]

You over paid for your vmod. Mine has survived a few nasty drops onto concrete with out any issue aside from a few nicks.

Get a REO unless you're going to invent, design, and mill an entirely new bottom feeder. BB doesn't have enough battery power IMO.

 

[turbocad6]

I haven't really thought about making it completely waterproof, never really been too much of a concern for me, water resistant yeah, but submersible with the DNA chip might be a bit of a challenge, plus I'm going to be using little BB type push buttons which also are really not going to be waterproof so I don't think the whole thing will be submersible but should survive rain, splashes and occasional getting wet at least. I will be able to take it apart for cleaning but delicate electronics like this might be tough to make fully submersible, it'll be more like my cell phone in that regard I think but if I do figure out a way to make it waterproof within my design I think I would, just not way up there on the priority list

I know I overpaid for the Vmod, I think your going to overpay for most stuff in a regular brick and mortar type place but that's the convenience of not having to wait for mailorder, guys gotta make bucks to keep the lights on so I almost expect paying ~15-20% extra from a store, goes with most things you buy really, ordering online VS picking up locally you are going to pay more picking it up locally

and yeah, Eddie, that's exactly what I do have in mind, to invent, design and machine a completely new bottom feeder design. I ordered a bunch of different sized quartz glass tubes to play with, probably going to make it out of aluminum or copper or brass for easier machinability with just some SS parts, whatever contacts the juice I guess will be stainless steel, does anyone know if any other metal is safe for long term contact with the juice besides SS?

 

[EddieAdams]

I'd go with polished SS tank personally. Built in as part of the whole unit. Must be minimum 4ml capacity. Concave or angled bottom to tube feed tip. External recessed bulb press feed that pressurized the reservoir and forced liquid into atomizer.

Glass ( cylindrical)would increase size considerably, breaks easily even if internal when dropped, and getting the proper shaped glass tank would be a PITA.

Must fit an 18650. Figure a battery bay with collapsible spring of 75mm. Maybe a magnetic switch.

 

[Thin]

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here but how about a Kayfun atty. I have the Kayfun Lite, bottom coil, solidly built, doesn't leak even if left upside down, holds about 4ml. There are others in the Kayfun range which I believe hold more juice. They're not cheap, but mine performs great.

 

[turbocad6]

Eddie, I think a magnetic switch is more for mechanical mods and higher amperage loads, using a DNA chip the fire switch only carries a few MA so it can be a micro switch. also the DNA gives a protection circuit so I don't think a collapsible spring would be necessary. I am picturing a device very similar in size the the VmodXL, the battery tube on one side and a cylinder about this size next to it... I am concerned about glass but what I have in mind is using the glass more like a cylinder sleeve and it won't really be load bearing, I will bore a cylinder that the glass fits into and then just cut a window(s) or slot(s) to see juice level but it should be droppable without breaking I think... the glass "sleeve" will be longer than the actual juice holding capability but that's because this sleeve will also have a piston in it... the piston will be much like a piston in a shock absorber and be sealed with an o-ring. I want the piston to also be visible and I plan on making it look like a very mechanical type looking thing, maybe a small engine type connecting rod to the piston, almost going to look like a miniature engine cylinder. I'm doing this as much for the art and creativity side of things as well as actual function. I expect this thing to take me many hours to build and I'm not just looking to make functional but also a tiny little work of art. I also have an idea of making one in a V twin design later, these will be as much art as function... I mean if practicality was my only concern then the REO would already be on it's way to me

 

[turbocad6]

hey thin, just seen your post... yeah I do really want a kayfun too, heard nothing but good about them but I've been searching for one but haven't found any available yet... tried to order one few weeks ago from intaste but there paypal cart system was down, I'm not opposed to having more than one or two or three or twenty mods

 

[EddieAdams]

Duh, yeah. dna chip. not mechanical.

 

[turbocad6]

ha, no sweat man, I too was thinking about a magnet switch at first and then it just hit me too

thin just reminded me again about the kayfun so I just sent another msg to intaste to see if theres anyway I can pay them for one hell if the kayfun works out well enough then I might also try to build a side by side design with the kayfun too, I'm really not so into the really long single tube with a big head look anymore, especially to carry around, a "box" type setup kinda folds the long single cylindrical assy in half which is really what I'm liking more and more now..., side by side vs a really long single cylinder

 

[vapero]

I've also been toying with this kind of idea recently and I was thinking of using a ucan for the juice delivery, it is stainless I know this isn't what you have in mind but it is still worth to check out, it has a bottom button that should be adjustable to the right amount of juice every time

you could use another one for the battery, there was a thread of someone that turned this into a hybrid

 

[turbocad6]

I thought about that but I don't really know how that type thing really works, and I think it might not really be ideal in the sense that it won't inject and then retract excess fluid. my thinking is to use a small glass feed tube inside th tank, feed from the bottom of the tank, tube will be 1mm internal diameter lets say, so each "plunge" may "inject" say .1ml of actual fluid but then on the downstroke it would suck up the excess back to the tank, so it will surge up to wet the wick, then drain back whatever remains. there is going to be some calibration of the stroke travel required, for example if the tube holds lets say .1ml of fluid volume, the pump action may actually have to inject .2ml of volume with the first .1ml just being air purged, then on the return it will suck back .2ml of volume which of course will be mostly air... the tube will mostly always just be filled with air unless it's being plunged...

these numbers are illustrative only, I have no idea as to the actual volumes yet, I need to build something and play a bit but as far as that thing pictured goes I think it's probably more like a dripper type thing, been meaning to pick one up to check it out too but with my thoughts of what I have pictured in my head I think built from scratch is probably going to be the best way to really build what I'm thinking of with the most control of design...

 

[turbocad6]

I did also consider using a reed valve type setup, where the intake stroke opens one reed to pull in and the compression stroke opens another reed for the exhaust, similar to how a 2 stroke engine or an air compressor works but this may just be overthinking it a bit and probably won't be necessary for a leak free design, might want something like that on my V twin setup though, a simple single piston design is up first though

 

[turbocad6]

hey thin, thanks again for the kayfun reminder, I decided to send off an email to intaste in Germany explaining my problems with ordering on there site and I asked if they could bill me directly, well I now have a kayfun 3.1 in route to me by fedex has no bearing on what I want to build here really, but def a cool thing to check out based on all the reviews, thanks

 

[Ryedan]

I am concerned about glass but what I have in mind is using the glass more like a cylinder sleeve and it won't really be load bearing, I will bore a cylinder that the glass fits into and then just cut a window(s) or slot(s) to see juice level but it should be droppable without breaking I think...

Great project turbocad!

I would consider suspending the glass tube between rubber or rubber-like parts so that it would be able to move when dropped to absorb the impact but still not leak normally. Probably good to leave enough clearance between the glass and steel to avoid contact through its range of motion.

 

[Blix]

Love the idea! But remember: KISS


Or it will be a $600 mod no one will buy before you know it.


IMNTLBHFO, try a Reo for a while first!

 

[turbocad6]

hey Blix, thanks but I'm really not looking to build something here to mass produce or resell, i'm more looking to build something for myself because I can't buy it. I will show what I do and if it works out good in concept then I imagine it may even be copied and further developed, kinda like how Raidy developed the whole genesis atty concept with SS mesh for himself and now it is widely used and widely copied.

the biggest drawback to the bottom feeders I see is having to use and squeeze the cheap little plastic containers, I'm looking for a way to inject from a bottom feed without having to use those plastic containers and to have a bottom feeder with a solid glass tank. if a year or 2 from now you can buy a REO with a glass tank and a piston design then hey that would be awesome, hell if you could buy that now then I wouldn't even have to build my own

Ryedan, I am going to play around with different suspension or isolation thoughts for the glass cylinder sleeve, my first tests will be to see if I can build a piston that seals well enough that it can be stroked repeatedly inside the glass cylinder without any fluid leaking past it, yet not be so tight that it can't move relatively easy. weather I can do this or not will influence my design so first thing is to develop the piston setup. if it winds up needing to be too tight to allow oscillations without leaking then I will go with an alternate plan which will be the piston being looser and more like a disc in the center of the tank, at that point a leakage wouldn't be a problem and it would work more like a shock piston that has a controlled amount of bleed or leakage past it, yet still create pressure on the stroke...

 

[Blix]

The question is why? Why glass tank and a piston, when the simple Reo system works as well as it does. You say the plastic bottle is cheap, yeah it may not be a bottle that cost much, but it can take any e-juice there is, and doesn't impact the flavor at all.
You are kind of creating a solution for a "problem" that doesn't exist.
At least in my opinion.

But I see you, coming up with new innovative stuff is great. I'd love to see you come up with something that works.

But to me personally, it doesn't sound like an improvement, at least not to a Reo, just more stuff that can fail.

But again, you should really spend some quality vaping time with a Reo.

 

[turbocad6]

the why is because it is a hobby I guess and I'm a creative and inventive kind of guy who loves building and modifying things. some people like to create miniature trains, some like to craft wooden birdhouses, me, I want to build something that I see in my head as an improvement to what already exists in PV's... I never doubted that a REO would give me what I generally want, nor am I saying there is anything wrong with them, but I see something that I think would improve on this design for me, no other reason. of course I do not need to do this, I just want to do it. in my opinion there are much worse things one could waste there time and money on I do already have several vaporizers and I do have something to smoke each day so I'm not doing this because I have a need for it, I just want to prove to myself a concept that I imagine to be an improvement in the way bottom feeders are built, my imagination tells me that I can do it better.

so far I have recieved my DNA 20D chip and some micro BB type buttons, still waiting on the selection of glass tubes I ordered so I can start playing with them. if I come up with a design that works well for me then I'll be happy, if I don't then it won't be because of the lack of trying... if no one further developed anything that may have already been "good enough" then the world would not be as interesting a place, theres always going to be a different way of doing something and the possibilities are only limited by ones own imagination and creativity. trust me, I'm not going to run out and say anyone else should do this nor am I even going to say it will be better, although I do hope it will be, the results remain to be seen I guess

why? well I guess my answer would be why not?

 

[vapero]

you could probably use some sort of plunger condom thing to wrap into the glass tube, then your piston will just have to apply some pressure to the plunger and not the tube, that way if you have your plunger walls perfectly airtight to the glass you won't have any leaking