Buying ingredients around town?

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Traver

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There is no lack of articles about FDA warnings about jatropha but I haven't seen anything about food or pharmaceutical grade glycerine actually being contaminated. I could have easily missed something or there could be something new and that's why I asked.

This sums up what I have seen so far;
The toxins apparent may not be detected by conventional impurity tests.
The FDA stated that, at the present time, it is “unaware of any intentional substitution or contamination in FDA-regulated finished products or components derived from the jatropha plant. However, given the significant overlap among the supply chains of FDA-regulated products, the FDA is advising the industry to be aware of the potential for substitution or use of oils, glycerin and proteins derived from the jatropha plant.

If anyone is interested the website is;
Hazardous toxins found in jatropha - OFI Magazine
 

Traver

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Boater, there is nothing wrong with presenting a different point of view. You may right but I need more than I talked with some friends at the lab to convince me. Going against Royalgate doesn't concern me at all. After all I am questioning one of the things he said. Even though he has been doing this a long time and knows more than I do. Doesn't mean he is always right.

Roly,

I thought I was simply doing folks a favor giving by passing along answers that I was able to obtain about Glycerin USP from a friend, who is a chemist at USP headquarters. I am not going to argue with you over this. I'm sorry I contradicted you and the sticky in public. Please don't ban me.
 

MD_Boater

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It wasn't a point of view. It was fact obtained from a trusted friend who is a chemist at USP (about 15 years). There is a huge difference. To me, it is the equivalent of getting financial advice from Donald Trump. Look, I'm not here to make waves, just friends. This is not that important to me.
 
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rolygate

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If someone wants to suggest that pharmacists and USP staff don't agree, then that's fine. All we can do here is publish what qualified pharmacists tell us.

The retail quality situation isn't ideal in any case.

Contamination is always going to be a problem with inhalable products because (1) the degree of contamination does not need to be high before there is a potential problem, and (2) no one in the supply chain really cares too much as long as they think they can get away with it, because quality is too expensive to provide unless you are forced to provide it.

The best example of this is the diacetyl flavouring scandal, where the original main producer kept selling it without protection and without warning the suppliers further down the chain, even though they knew it was toxic and was already killing people - so dozens of people were killed or maimed in the supply line, as the material was processed and reprocessed into other products. They thought they could get away with it, and it made them too much money to turn the switch off.

And before you say that doesn't happen in our own business - it does. One of the largest Chinese e-liquid vendors was caught supplying PEG-based e-liquid with 2% DEG contamination, because they normally supplied it at up to 1.9% contamination but made a mistake and let some through with 2% contamination, and that got caught in an FDA import test (sometimes the FDA stop and analyse e-liquid imports). Their Sales Director said, to paraphrase him, "We will supply PEG e-liquid with up to 2% DEG contamination because that is the FDA limit. It is allowed below that."

As a result, following a storm of argument, they stopped supplying PEG over here (as far as I know), because they could not control the purity. But as far as they were concerned, anything up to 1.9% contamination with a known poison was just fine because that was the limit allowable. They had been supplying it contaminated up to that time.

The supply chain doesn't care because no one has to pay personally. You don't know what you are inhaling unless you have seen a certificate of full analysis of the finished retail product, and there is clearly a possibility someone in the supply chain has cut corners. There is no such thing as a certificate of analysis available for an e-liquid retail product anywhere, as far as I am aware. Please don't tell me that this is not necessary: I have just demonstrated to you that products were being sold here with around a 2% DEG contamination, and that the manufacturer was fully aware of it, and that the vendors here had no idea.

Therefore, you will probably understand why I don't consider a debate about the finer points of the meaning of USP to have much importance, considering the context it has to be placed in.
 

Bennylava

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After coming back and reading the rest of this thread:

Guys this makes me want to quit vaping. You KNOW those shops are just buying whatever is cheap. You know it. I have serious doubts they're buying it from Dow chemical company based on purity concerns lol. That kind of dedication is extremely rare. And here's what we have to watch out for: The cigarette companies knew that their best interest was to keep us alive as long as possible. If all their billions would have bought them a safe cigarette, they would have done it in a heartbeat. The government off their backs, and customers that buy even more cigarettes because they never get cancer and die. Or any of the rest of the host of diseases. So you know that its the safest thing they can come up with. Probably. At least we can assume that they have to know that its in their best interest.

These carcinogens are not found in any cigarette. Who knows exactly how cancerous they really are? Far more than smoking? Maybe. From what I've read here no one actually sells a pure product to retailers, its all going to be in manufacturing. And even then its still only 99.7% pure, so you know the rest are lower than that. If its just water I'm cool with it, but thus far I haven't seen any information to show that every single one of us here isn't vaping that Jatropha plant stuff, or some other awful contaminant. Vaping hasn't been around long enough for anyone to get whatever disease is going to show up, and die from it. So basically, if you quite smoking due to health concerns, its probably best to quit vaping as well, until they come up with fully tested flavors and VG and PG.
 

rolygate

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@Bennylava
The situation is not critical, it's just that it could be better.

The main criterion with any toxin is the dose. In fact even a nutrient can be toxic if the dose is increased too much. It's hard to see how vaping could be much less than 100 times safer than smoking even if there are contaminants in the refills at measurable but not excessive quantities. What we are probably talking about here is how to make it 1,000 times safer than smoking.

To put this in perspective, let's say there are 400,000 US deaths annually from smoking (this is the ballpark number usually quoted although we have no way of knowing how accurate such statistics are).

Vaping might be 100 times safer even if there were small but measurable quantities of contaminants in the refill liquids, such as diacetyl, jatropha and DEG. This would result in 4,000 annual deaths, if all smokers switched and if there were no latent disease issues from previous smoking (both obviously impossible).

If you could remove all possible contaminants of all kinds from the vapor, then vaping might turn out to be 1,000 times safer than smoking. Theoretically you'd then get 400 annual deaths as a direct result of vaping. (These would mostly be among persons abnormally intolerant to an ingredient - equivalent to peanut allergy for example - or those with some sort of health issue such as emphysema, exacerbated by vaping the wrong type of refill.)

4,000 annual deaths from 45 - 50 million or so vapers (if all smokers switched) is not exactly an epidemic: it's about 0.01% per year of them, and almost certainly not identifiable; it's probably less than mortality resulting from coffee drinking. 400 annual deaths ex 45m is an invisible number.

This is just a guess based on zero real evidence :) I'm just trying to point out that the risk elevation is so small compared to smoking that it probably will not be able to be identified reliably even in a population who have never smoked and who have vaped for 30 years.

On the other hand people are all different, so reducing risk for one person may be far more important than for another, keeping in mind that everyone has different susceptibilities / vulnerabilities. If you have a family history of vascular disease (multiple cases of early death from stroke for example) then perhaps you might think carefully about total nicotine consumption; history of cancer deaths: reducing carcinogens to a minimum; lung problems: quality of inhaled materials. Each to his own.

On average the risks of vaping don't appear high even if quality is not perfect. But, if you have a certain family genetic issue and vape 10ml of e-liquid a day then your problems are not the same as those of someone whose parents and grandparents all lived to 95 and who vapes 1ml a day. In statistics, there are averages - but you yourself are not an 'average'.
 

Blueser

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I had read that Chemworld had taken over sales and distribution of Dow Optim. I contacted them to inquire as to where Optim could be purchased. Here's the reply

We supply to quite a bit of companies in the e-cig industry and I never heard of anybody using Dow Synthetic Glycerin to be honest with you.

We meet the industry standard with Glycerin USP and Kosher and so far we had no complaints.
Let me know if you have any additional questions I'm more than happy to help.

Best regards,
Bastian Wache
Chemworld
 

f1vefour

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I had read that Chemworld had taken over sales and distribution of Dow Optim. I contacted them to inquire as to where Optim could be purchased. Here's the reply

We supply to quite a bit of companies in the e-cig industry and I never heard of anybody using Dow Synthetic Glycerin to be honest with you.

We meet the industry standard with Glycerin USP and Kosher and so far we had no complaints.
Let me know if you have any additional questions I'm more than happy to help.

Best regards,
Bastian Wache
Chemworld

So they didn't answer your question. They haven't heard of anyone using it because we can't get our hands on it :rolleyes:
 

Traver

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I'm cool with it, but thus far I haven't seen any information to show that every single one of us here isn't vaping that Jatropha plant stuff, or some other awful contaminant. Vaping hasn't been around long enough for anyone to get whatever disease is going to show up, and die from it. So basically, if you quite smoking due to health concerns, its probably best to quit vaping as well, until they come up with fully tested flavors and VG and PG.

I don't have much concern about Jatropha in this country. Jatropha is not a major source of biodiesel here and with the FDA warning I doubt that any manufacturer of ether food grade or USP is glycerin is going to risk having their product contaminated with byproducts from this plant.
Asian liquids are another matter. I would be more concerned because Jatropha is grown more extensively in Asia. If I was buying liquids or glycerin from Asia I would look into it a bit deeper. Nicotine is the only thing I may be buying from Asia.
 

18350

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optim i found starts @ $100 a gallon.
prices get better at 55 gallon and 55x4.
yikes on price.
a bit over double what im paying for organic vg from palm.

worth it?
i dont know.
i will tell ya when the sample gets here.

well the optim is pretty amazing stuff.
on its own it is missing that sweet to sharp flavor fade that "normal" glycerin has when i taste it alone.
when used to extract a single ingredient/ flavor the flavor is much more pronounced and complete.
vaped alone the mouth feel of the vapor is less greasy on exhale.

ive run the #'s for a limited run.
at a retail level a product made with this will no doubt cost more.
material price of $100 a gallon vs $150 for 5 gallons of the standard.

in a market dominated by chi-juice chemical appletini @ $1.99 30ml i dont see this being viable.
the established profit margins are rather healthy using the cheapest chems available.

for an educated high end user concerned with the quality of things ingested, definitely an option.
the pricing still comes in surprisingly competitive with other "top tier" juices.

once scaled up to a production level the cost would drop in bulk as well making it even more attractive.
 
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