Calling BS on dual coils!

[Ryedan]

Your twice the vapor comment is not obvious to me.

The way I look at it is if you take two PVs with identical attys on them and hold them in front of you, running them both will make twice the vapor that one makes. That's a mind experiment that I think few people are going to disagree with.

IMO putting those coils into the same atty makes it harder to get a handle on. When I had one of my dual coils break in the Trident I switched to a single air hole and vaped on until I got around to fixing it. It was an OK vape and made a surprising amount of vapor considering it was running a single coil.

That got me thinking. One coil at half the power of two could not possibly be making similar vapor as both in the same device. I don't think double the vapor production translates into doubling the cloud size. I think it's a case of diminishing returns.

Now, that's just me and the conclusion I came to . YMMV as always

 

[certus11]

This whole thing about coil temperature is I believe misunderstood by a lot of people.

As long as you have enough power to start vaporizing juice, coil surface temperature does not vary because of power applied.

It only goes up if the wire is not wet enough.

Thoughts anyone ...

ya, I'm guessing that a coil burning at 150 + F the moment you press the button (I use on 33 GA) doesn't care about the coil being at 70 degree or 90 degrees from the start.

 

[Mitey F]

You can apply all the power you want to a pot of water, the water will not exceed 212deg.

Unless it's distilled ;-)

 

[Ryedan]

ya, I'm guessing that a coil burning at 150 + F the moment you press the button (I use on 33 GA) doesn't care about the coil being at 70 degree or 90 degrees from the start.

Yup, the only difference that will make is less time to heat up. I find that specially noticeable with SS wicks because of the heat sink effect of the steel.

 

[Ryedan]

Unless it's distilled ;-)

Getting picky, huh

 

[rurwin]

You can apply all the power you want to a pot of water, the water will not exceed 212deg.

Yes it will. ;-)
Once all the water is steam it will get a lot hotter. It will all turn to steam faster if more power is applied.

I get the feeling that there are two factions arguing here: the mech mods and the VW mods. With a mech mod, the only way to vary the power is to change the resistance. Dual coils make sense because it increases surface area and increases power. But with VW, if you can supply sufficient power, it doesn't matter what the resistance is; you can take those dual coils and wire them in series or parallel and you will get exactly the same vapour off them. State of the art right now is that mech mods can supply more power so, at the extreme, dual coils on mech mods, will have the advantage. But off the extreme, say 20W, a single coil may be capable of being driven by a VW mod where the same coil split into two and dualed would be too low in resistance for a VW mod to handle. And dual coils of sufficiently high resistance to be driven, would have entirely different characteristics.

Hence, for very high power on a mech mod, a dual coil will be better. For optimum power on a VW mod, a single coil may be better.

 

[Mitey F]

IMO putting those coils into the same atty makes it harder to get a handle on. When I had one of my dual coils break in the Trident I switched to a single air hole and vaped on until I got around to fixing it. It was an OK vape and made a surprising amount of vapor considering it was running a single coil.

That got me thinking. One coil at half the power of two could not possibly be making similar vapor as both in the same device. I don't think double the vapor production translates into doubling the cloud size. I think it's a case of diminishing returns.

I think you're both right and wrong (or I misunderstood) with this assumption. It *is* likely a case of diminishing returns. However (and I'm not sure this is where you were going with this or not) if we're talking "power" in the literal sense, we're talking watts... I was a bit confused when you said "One coil at half the power of two"

If we're comparing 2x 1 ohm coils vs 1x 1 ohm coil (equal, or "same" coils), you're going to have TWICE as much power on the dual coil build (because you have half the resistance), given the same input voltage. Thus, *in theory* you'll have twice the vapor... twice the power, PLUS twice the surface area.

If you're talking 2x 2ohm coils vs 1x 1 ohm coil (same net resistance) you're going to have equal power, but twice the surface area, which makes things a bit more muddled. More surface area would generally yield more vapor (all else equal), but since you have equal power in each setup (and power is a direct measurement of heat transfer), my mind wants to say that vapor would be *about* the same on either build... but I can't say with any certainty.

 

[Myk]

Yes it will. ;-)
Once all the water is steam it will get a lot hotter. It will all turn to steam faster if more power is applied.

I get the feeling that there are two factions arguing here: the mech mods and the VW mods. With a mech mod, the only way to vary the power is to change the resistance. Dual coils make sense because it increases surface area and increases power. But with VW, if you can supply sufficient power, it doesn't matter what the resistance is; you can take those dual coils and wire them in series or parallel and you will get exactly the same vapour off them. State of the art right now is that mech mods can supply more power so, at the extreme, dual coils on mech mods, will have the advantage. But off the extreme, say 20W, a single coil may be capable of being driven by a VW mod where the same coil split into two and dualed would be too low in resistance for a VW mod to handle. And dual coils of sufficiently high resistance to be driven, would have entirely different characteristics.

Hence, for very high power on a mech mod, a dual coil will be better. For optimum power on a VW mod, a single coil may be better.

That's not how it works in VV.
Variable can make up for slight changes in ohms between coils but it doesn't make up for a 2Ω change.

Take my two 2Ω coils in series and you have a 4Ω coil. Two coils heating from the center out vs one coil heating from the center out.
IME, it doesn't matter what you hit that 4Ω coil with it's not going to fire like a 2Ω coil. However you can hit the two 2Ω coils with enough that they'll fire like 2Ω coils.

State of the art now is that variable mods can supply more than mechs and do it with consistency through the whole charge. With DNA (and some others) there's not much sense in mechs.

 

[Ryedan]

I think you're both right and wrong (or I misunderstood) with this assumption. It *is* likely a case of diminishing returns. However (and I'm not sure this is where you were going with this or not) if we're talking "power" in the literal sense, we're talking watts... I was a bit confused when you said "One coil at half the power of two"

If we're comparing 2x 1 ohm coils vs 1x 1 ohm coil (equal, or "same" coils), you're going to have TWICE as much power on the dual coil build (because you have half the resistance), given the same input voltage. Thus, *in theory* you'll have twice the vapor... twice the power, PLUS twice the surface area.

This was exactly what I was thinking Mitey

If you're talking 2x 2ohm coils vs 1x 1 ohm coil (same net resistance) you're going to have equal power, but twice the surface area, which makes things a bit more muddled. More surface area would generally yield more vapor (all else equal), but since you have equal power in each setup (and power is a direct measurement of heat transfer), my mind wants to say that vapor would be *about* the same on either build... but I can't say with any certainty.

Ya, I don't pretend to have this figured out. All I know is dual coils work really well in my Trident . Better than about the same power in other single coil toppers. And that's good enough for me

 

[Mitey F]

State of the art now is that variable mods can supply more than mechs and do it with consistency through the whole charge. With DNA (and some others) there's not much sense in mechs.

That's an argument for another thread ;-) No need to muddle this more than it already is!

 

[Mitey F]

Ya, I don't pretend to have this figured out. All I know is dual coils work really well in my Trident . Better than about the same power in other single coil toppers. And that's good enough for me

Is it strange that I get such pleasure when 2 people on the interwebs can speculate, agree that they don't *really* know the answer, and not have to argue just for the sake of being "right"?

 

[tj99959]

That's not how it works in VV.
Variable can make up for slight changes in ohms between coils but it doesn't make up for a 2Ω change.

Take my two 2Ω coils in series and you have a 4Ω coil. Two coils heating from the center out vs one coil heating from the center out.
IME, it doesn't matter what you hit that 4Ω coil with it's not going to fire like a 2Ω coil. However you can hit the two 2Ω coils with enough that they'll fire like 2Ω coils.

State of the art now is that variable mods can supply more than mechs and do it with consistency through the whole charge. With DNA (and some others) there's not much sense in mechs.

I wouldn't go that far. My mechanical cost $39, and your DNA (and some others) cost how much??????
My mechanical will do what I want, does it need to do anythng else????????

 

[Ryedan]

Is it strange that I get such pleasure when 2 people on the interwebs can speculate, agree that they don't *really* know the answer, and not have to argue just for the sake of being "right"?

LOL, nope, I totally agree. Drama queens and pissing contests don't do much for me either

 

[Dampmaskin]

Is it strange that I get such pleasure when 2 people on the interwebs can speculate, agree that they don't *really* know the answer, and not have to argue just for the sake of being "right"?

Who are you, and what have you done with my Internet?

 

[emus]

You can apply all the power you want to a pot of water, the water will not exceed 212deg.

Yes but what is the surface temperature of the coil?

 

[Mitey F]

Yes but what is the surface temperature of the coil?

As long as it is in thermal contact with juice, no. I've posted this here before, but I think it's relevant.

 

[Myk]

I wouldn't go that far. My mechanical cost $39, and your DNA (and some others) cost how much??????
My mechanical will do what I want, does it need to do anythng else????????

Don't know, don't have one, don't need one, wouldn't do me much good because they don't set low enough watts for what I like on most things.

I was answering to mechs being able to supply more power at the extremes as "state of the art". That's no longer the case and "state of the art" tends to mean latest and greatest.

 

[emus]

The way I look at it is if you take two PVs with identical attys on them and hold them in front of you, running them both will make twice the vapor that one makes. That's a mind experiment that I think few people are going to disagree with.

IMO putting those coils into the same atty makes it harder to get a handle on. When I had one of my dual coils break in the Trident I switched to a single air hole and vaped on until I got around to fixing it. It was an OK vape and made a surprising amount of vapor considering it was running a single coil.

That got me thinking. One coil at half the power of two could not possibly be making similar vapor as both in the same device. I don't think double the vapor production translates into doubling the cloud size. I think it's a case of diminishing returns.

Now, that's just me and the conclusion I came to . YMMV as always

I guess we should establish at which point vapor is doubled so we be on page same.

Are you talking about double the vapor at drip tip exhaust?

Another reason it isn't obvious to me is dual coils talk but two single coils toppers have a communication gap plenty.

 

[rurwin]

Yes but what is the surface temperature of the coil?

There will be a difference, but not much. Thermal conductivity is measured in watts per degree, and with a liquid interface it will be high -- the difference in temperature might be ten degrees C (at a guess.) So say the difference between 215F for a barely adequate power and 230F for clouds.

 

[emus]

That's an argument for another thread ;-) No need to muddle this more than it already is!

Good point. We should be talking cattle emissions