Can any one simplify the YiHi joules temp control
- Thread starter SissySpike
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
All I'll say is that it's likely Evolv used quite competent patent attorneys for their filing. As thunderdan pointed out, the patent does in fact protect their invention and about as much as it is possible to protect. The patent is defensible and would require costly litigation to challenge. Any company with the wherewithal to mount that challenge would likely opt to license the technology. Any company that could not license would not have the wherewithal to mount a legal challenge.
The fact that most of the industry is violating the patent doesn't make it any more likely to be overturned, that is a lot of wishful thinking really. It may be hard for recent vapers to accept but Evolv really did invent variable power ecigarettes. And given how popular they have become, they deserve to get paid handsomely for it.
The biggest threat is from a huge player that is looking to damage the industry, such as BT. They could win a legal war of attrition against any vape company. And you will all change your tune if BT enters this picture.
The fact that most of the industry is violating the patent doesn't make it any more likely to be overturned, that is a lot of wishful thinking really. It may be hard for recent vapers to accept but Evolv really did invent variable power ecigarettes. And given how popular they have become, they deserve to get paid handsomely for it.
The biggest threat is from a huge player that is looking to damage the industry, such as BT. They could win a legal war of attrition against any vape company. And you will all change your tune if BT enters this picture.
Last edited:
I don't think BT gives a Darn about Evolv or Yihi or VW.
They will be Dominate Player(s) in the e-Cigarette market because of Regulations. And they will have No Desire to step on someone's Patent.
Because they are No Stranger to Lawsuits.
No, it's essentially the same thing as wattage. I'm sure there's a spin on how they're doing the math, but essentially 30W for 1 second or 3 seconds is still 30W of power being applied all the time. 30J for 1 second is also 30W applied for 1 second. 30J for 3 seconds is 90J, but still 30W applied over those 3 seconds.
There's a lot we don't know about YiHi's application, where they're taking their measurements, how they're performing their math, etc. and I'm sure they're not going to reveal their trade secrets, but traditionally the Joule is the unit of measure when dealing with heat. In temperature limiting mode, all the Joule setting does is determine how much power to initially apply to the coil before the temperature limit is reached. Think of it as "ramp-up time" - the same with the wattage setting on the DNA40. You can set the W or J as high as you want, but the mod will back off the power once the set temperature is reached. Setting either too low could result in you never reaching the set temperature.
They're both about the vaping profile, and from what the early reports tell us, the Joule method is a different experience. I'll likely be able to figure out more about how it's actually working once I own one, in a couple weeks. Perhaps YiHi will elaborate a little more on their implementation after the release. Curious minds and all...
You are incorrect. They bought the VV patent already and have never had any qualms about acquiring and burying patents to protect their market, by hook or crook.
VW being one of the dominant technologies in the industry, you can bet they will set sights on it eventually if they haven't already. The idea they will just let it go unmolested is ludicrous.
Evolv's VW patent may actually be the only protection the vaping community has against BT waging an IP war.
But with temperature control the actual watts would fluctuate to accommodate the set temperature, would it not? So with a vw mod at 30w we'd get 90 joules at a three second draw. With the power changing to maintain temperature we might get 84 joules (for example); 32 w for 1 second, 28 w for 1 second, 24 w for one second - and that would equal 84 joules. Right?
I think what you will find out is that Yihi just copied the technology and changed watts to joules on the display to disguise the fact that it operates as the dna40 does....and changing the display to read joules will not circumvent patent issues imo.... Patent infringement issues aren't settled in the social media (such as ECF) rather they are addressed per patent laws, laws, and as a last resort, in the courtroom...imo..
Inquiring or Buying a Patent is one thing. It's called a Business Decision.
Blatantly selling a Product that Violates someone's else's Patent is another thing. And then it gets down to Profits made before Legal Fees are Paid.
I don't see that BT(s) will have much Competition in the Coming e-Cigarette Market. And someone like Evolv maybe be More than Happy to sell a Licensing agreement to BT(s) when US sales Dry Up in a Regulated Market.
Technically, neither watts nor joules fluctuate, as they're simply calculations in themselves. What's actually changing in both devices is voltage. In electronics, we don't control watts or joules - we can use their calculated values to control voltage. But, in your example, you are correct.
What you're missing though is the Joule setting isn't predicting how much you'll use over time, it's simply telling you how much power to apply at first - the "ramp-up" until the set temperature is reached, at which point voltage is dropped to maintain the set temperature. The Joule counter on the SX350J will (well, should - I don't own one yet) reflect actual power used. So, if you have 30J set, and fire it for 3 seconds, the Joule counter should read 84 in your example.
Well, I'm sure it'll be settled at some point, but given that Evolv weren't the first company to use VW in a mod will surely give them a hard time trying to enforce their patent against anyone else. But, like you said, that's up to the lawyers, not us ECF'ers.
PS - Even more to the point, the concept of variable wattage is many, many years old, so it will be interesting to sit back and watch what becomes of this. Given that YiHi are a Chinese company, the best Evolv could do is block their sale by US vendors. Doubt YiHi could give a flying... about US patent laws anyway. But, we shouldn't just pick on YiHi, as pretty much every regulated mod uses VW these days. What will be interesting is how they approach US companies like ProVape.
Last edited:
Evolv invented VW, they were the first to use it.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
I hope that's all Evolv have planned - future-proofing their income by licensing VW to BT. But, like YiHi have done, all you have to do is change the unit of measure and not use watts as the control unit. As I stated above, all any unit is doing is changing voltage on the fly. You could even make up a fake unit that defines a set power, and a formula to let people who really care figure out the relationship to watts. Wasn't so long ago we only cared about voltage... and wasn't so long before that the concept of variable voltage was introduced.
PS - Probably won't be long before someone invents temperature control. That word is misused when applied to both DNA40 and SX350J, since they're both temperature limiting. If need be, they could change the unit of measure to BTU's and be done with VW and Evolv's patent, if it ends up holding any weight. Yep, will be interesting to see it all unfold.
PPS - Come to think of it, temperature control is probably the future of vaping. Setting constant voltage or constant wattage (in a non-temperature limiting device) seems silly when you think about it. There is no control over the temperature of the coil, and typically the longer the draw, the hotter the coil gets, up to a point, with airflow being the determining factor. We have temperature limiting now, but if the user sets W or J too low, it'll never reach the set temperature. A true consistent vape can only be achieved by temperature control.
Last edited:
Yeah, I get that it's the voltage that varies (and the resistance with ni200 wire). I have no idea of how the yihi is supposed to work, so basically just thinking out loud (with a less than rudimentary understanding of joules, watts, technology)
But I think you've made it a bit clearer for me (though I'll need to see the chip in action before I'll understand it in any true sense).
Ah, Evolv made the Darwin - forgot about that connection. Then the Kick... which was my introduction to VW, and still used in a Nemesis with Kayfun.
Still waiting guys Last I herd the mod is supposed to ship out on the 30th Just my luck I may have to go to Saudi for a few months about that time I hope not! Its to hot there! All you need is a straw and a bottle of juice drip on any superheated sun baked rock and tada vapor via the sun mod
Lots and lots of great stuff in this thread. Thanks TD the Paten info, was interesting. Ill be glad when we can put the mod to the test and see what its all about. Im glad I ordered it. If nothing else its kept us entertained for a couple of weeks speculating on how it works;-)
Lots and lots of great stuff in this thread. Thanks TD the Paten info, was interesting. Ill be glad when we can put the mod to the test and see what its all about. Im glad I ordered it. If nothing else its kept us entertained for a couple of weeks speculating on how it works;-)
Last edited:
If you've watched the Evolv chip work, you'd agree that temperature control has been invented. I know they call it protection, but the chip does a masterful job of controlling at the set point. I set up a test rig to check for screen issues. On the output, I made up a coil and clipped it (with jumpers) to the board. I fired it and watched the temperature readout, and it stayed within a few degrees. Then I blew air with a hair dryer across it and watched the watts jump up and temperature re-stabilize. All they need to do is change the label.
Brandon from Evolv has stated that what Evolv is doing is not temperature control. The DNA40 chip allows setting power and temperature separately with the temperature setting acting as a limiting factor for power. YiHi allows for separate joules (power) and temperature settings as well.
Imeo from Golden Greek says that his approach to temperature is different than what others have used in the soon to be released Proteus which only allows the user to set temperature according to the instructions for Proteus (uses VIR) that Imeo posted.
Until the YiHi SX350J chip and Proteus is in users' hands we won't know for a certainty how the different chips will affect the user experience.
He has, but that's them being overly .... about terminology, IMO. All they are saying is that it's possible to set the device up to not reach full temperature (via a low watt setting), but that's really a minor semantic difference. It is really a temperature ramp-up rate control, but in the end temperature is controlled in the same manner that it would be if there were no watt setting. Consideration of the time dimension renders the difference moot.
There's nothing .... about the English language, and the terminology is very clear.
Temperature Limiting, which is what both the DNA40 and SX350J are doing, let you set how much power is applied to the coil (whether that be watts or joules), and temperature ramps up to the set temperature limit, then throttles voltage back to maintain that temperature. You can set the power low enough to never reach your set temperature, thus the definition of temperature limiting.
If you set the DNA40 to 15W and 500F, you'll never get to 500W.
Temperature Control would be a mode that ONLY lets you adjust temperature, and regardless of any other setting, will always achieve that set temperature.
In this mode, whether you set the temperature to 200F or 500F, it will get there.
Hopefully that clears up the difference. Both Brandon from Evolv, and YiHi, are correct that their boards are Temperature Limiting (TL), not Temperature Control (TC).
I still can't for the life of me figure out why they chose to go with Joules over Watts ....
It's almost feels like they wanted people to think that you could maintain the same power level regardless of your temperature limit. So instead of measuring current wattage on the display, they placed a static Joule setting in big print and placed the voltage (where you can see the actual power fluctuation) in smaller print.
I mean, in the end a satisfying vape is a satisfying vape and numbers don't tell the whole story. But I'd still like to know roughly how far in wattage I'm dropping down to without having to use ohms law.
It's almost feels like they wanted people to think that you could maintain the same power level regardless of your temperature limit. So instead of measuring current wattage on the display, they placed a static Joule setting in big print and placed the voltage (where you can see the actual power fluctuation) in smaller print.
I mean, in the end a satisfying vape is a satisfying vape and numbers don't tell the whole story. But I'd still like to know roughly how far in wattage I'm dropping down to without having to use ohms law.
- Status
Similar threads
