Can we trust the Bible?

[eHuman]

Which version? Which translation? Which sect?

All Christian Bibles, the sect known as Christian.

Gods word isnt in a book, its written on your heart. The book itself is not divine, but you are treating it as such when you call it Gods Word.

The book called the Bible is the collection of writings known as the word of God and yes it is Holy - the words not the paper they are printed on.

Acts 13:48-49
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.


Some food for thought.
God's words are written on our hearts, but why did God also appoint apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers? For equipping the saints for the works of sevice I.E. to train them up. God had men write His words and history for our learning.

1 Cor 10:11-12 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

Peter 1:20-21 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Amos 2:11 "Then I raised up some of your sons to be prophets And some of your young men to be Nazirites. Is this not so, O sons of Israel?" declares the Lord.

Rom 15:4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Heb 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

 

[LisaLisa]

Could you please tell me what #23,239--42,976 and 17,596 are?

You're so bad!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LisaLisa]

Which version? Which translation? Which sect?

Gods word isnt in a book, its written on your heart. The book itself is not divine, but you are treating it as such when you call it Gods Word.

The paper it's written on is not divine, but the words in it sure are as it was divinely inspired.

 

[LisaLisa]

Some do. Many celebrate the Passover during Easter and they celebrate other Jewish Holidays as well. Of course, I know some non-Jewish Christians who love to celebrate Passover too. The Seder (say-der) is really a profound celebration meal during Passover. It's quite holy.

I'm just wondering why "we" (christians) don't observe these holy days too. As Christians, our spiritual heritage includes these jewish holy days, so why don't christians observe them? This is something I just started thinking about this year since I don't celebrate christmas and easter.

What Holy Days did Jesus participate in specifically? Does anybody know?

 

[Vidi]

Jeremiah 17:9 9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

Romans 2:15 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

The requirements of the law are written on our hearts, not the complete pronouncements of God. And I agree, the Bible is a book and should not in and of itself be revered. Most of us respect it because it contains what we need to know about God. Versions? Sects? Which ones are you familiar with?

Quoting the book to prove the books divinity is broken logic. I can quote the autobibography of Ben Franklin, that doesnt make it divine

 

[Vidi]

The paper it's written on is not divine, but the words in it sure are as it was divinely inspired.

Which words?

The words of the King james versions? Youngs Literal Translation? New American? Old German?

Which version of the Bible is divinely inspired?

Because they all don't say the same things, then some of them must be wrong. Some of them MUST be divinely UNinspired.


Lastly, you've been showing how you feel about the Bible for as long as I have seen you post and refer to it. You capitalize "Word of God" like you capitalize God, the Holy Spirit and any pronoun referring to the Father or Son ( <-----like that ) Therefore, you are showing that you place "God's Word" at the same divine level as The Father and Son, as you refer to it with the same reverence. Regardless of what you say about not considering the books itself divine, in every single one of your posts you reference it with the same rules and reverence you would God or Jesus. You have placed that book at their level.

 

[chimney55]

Quoting the book to prove the books divinity is broken logic.

You were saying that God's word was written on our hearts. It's not--just the requirements of the law. And the heart will deceive itself into believing anything. (I was not trying to prove the divinity of the Bible.)

 

[Vidi]

All Christian Bibles, the sect known as Christian.
The book called the Bible is the collection of writings known as the word of God and yes it is Holy - the words not the paper they are printed on.

Acts 13:48-49
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.


Some food for thought.
God's words are written on our hearts, but why did God also appoint apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers? For equipping the saints for the works of sevice I.E. to train them up. God had men write His words and history for our learning.

1 Cor 10:11-12 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

Peter 1:20-21 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Amos 2:11 "Then I raised up some of your sons to be prophets And some of your young men to be Nazirites. Is this not so, O sons of Israel?" declares the Lord.

Rom 15:4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Heb 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

Again quoting the Bible to prove the Bible is broken logic.

And who says God appointed all those people? Did God tell you personally? Or did you read about their appointment in a book?

 

[HyOnLyph]

Jeremiah 17:9 9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

Romans 2:15 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

The requirements of the law are written on our hearts, not the complete pronouncements of God. And I agree, the Bible is a book and should not in and of itself be revered. Most of us respect it because it contains what we need to know about God. Versions? Sects? Which ones are you familiar with?

The scripture in Jeremiah refers to OT man. Or for a better term... unredeemed man. It does not apply to the redeemed. The new creature is not that man. It is often preached from the pulpit that we still have hearts that are desperately wicked... I believe this is either done out of ignorance or as a method of control. (I prefer to believe the former) If we only knew who we are... If only we believed God when he says we are a new creation, one with our Creator.

Hebrews 8
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
8 But God found fault with the people and said:
“The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

This scripture was fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead. You might ask which laws are the ones referred to in vs. 10. I believe they are the laws that Jesus left us with. paraphrased...Love God, Love yourself (inferred), Love others.

 

[Vidi]

You were saying that God's word was written on our hearts. It's not--just the requirements of the law. And the heart will deceive itself into believing anything. (I was not trying to prove the divinity of the Bible.)

To say that the Bible is The Word of God, infallible and unmutable, is to say it is akin to God Himself, and flies in the face of both logic and the physical evidence of any book store.

take this for example:

New International Version (©1984)
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

New Living Translation
"The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is?

English Standard Version
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

New American Standard Bible
"The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"The human mind is the most deceitful of all things. It is incurable. No one can understand how deceitful it is.

King James Bible
The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

American King James Version
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

American Standard Version
The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?

Bible in Basic English
The heart is a twisted thing, not to be searched out by man: who is able to have knowledge of it?

Douay-Rheims Bible
The heart is perverse above all things, and unsearchable, who can know it?

Darby Bible Translation
The heart is deceitful above all things, and incurable; who can know it?

English Revised Version
The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is desperately sick: who can know it?

Webster's Bible Translation
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

World English Bible
The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?

Young's Literal Translation
Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable -- who doth know it?

While most of these translations say essentially the same thing, there are nuances to each and there are two that stand out and say something different. Gods Word and Youngs Literla. Youngs being the closest to the original text.

the nuance of "desperately" as an adjective to describe incurable adds more nuance.

then look at New Living which takes "lack of understanding" and actually adds the negative "bad" or Gods Word version which adds "how deceitful it is"

Then of course Douay-Rheims changes it completely as well. The heart isnt incurable or deceitful, but perverse and unsearchable!


These are important!!!

If as Lisa says and most of you will claim, that this is our link to God and His vision of the world, it has become corrupted through translation. If it is our duty to spread the Word of God, then it must also be our duty to verify what we are spreading. Its easy to point to the Bible and say," Here is the Word of God!" but it's not true and anyone with logic and a library can prove that what Christians refer to as "The Word of God" is a living changing document and therefore, cannot be "law", a guide yes. A book of suggestions, yes, But law? no.

Therefore, if God loves us, and we are in danger of eternal separation from Him, then He would place His Word, His Law somewhere no man can touch and sully.

I believe that men, looking to have power over other men, changed the Bible, added to the Bible and took away from the Bible. But they didn't change ALL of the Bible. There are still parts of God in there. These parts are like a DaVinci Code giving us signs as to where to find God. The Kingdom of God is within you. Yet, Jeremiah 17:9 denies this. It says we cannot trust ourselves to know what is right. I agree if we are to be guided ONLY by ourselves. But if we walk with God by our side, within us, with His Truth written on our heart, then our hearts are pure because God is there. Our hearts are NOT deceitful, because God is there. The heart is cured, because God is there. Who can know the heart? God can.

The Word of God is not in a book, it's written on your heart.



On an unrelated and historical note, look at the next verse Jeremiah 17:10...If you know your history, you will understand the importance of this verse. It is in this verse that the protestant split becomes heretical

 

[LisaLisa]

Which words?

The words of the King james versions? Youngs Literal Translation? New American? Old German?

Which version of the Bible is divinely inspired?

Because they all don't say the same things, then some of them must be wrong. Some of them MUST be divinely UNinspired.


Lastly, you've been showing how you feel about the Bible for as long as I have seen you post and refer to it. You capitalize "Word of God" like you capitalize God, the Holy Spirit and any pronoun referring to the Father or Son ( <-----like that ) Therefore, you are showing that you place "God's Word" at the same divine level as The Father and Son, as you refer to it with the same reverence. Regardless of what you say about not considering the books itself divine, in every single one of your posts you reference it with the same rules and reverence you would God or Jesus. You have placed that book at their level.

LOL!!!! I've placed the Bible on the same level as Jesus because I capitalize the word Bible? Seriously? You don't know me at all.

The original writings were inspired. We have translations of those texts today in our own language. God's language is universal, translation does not matter. You are hung up on details......details...details like translations and capital letters. Be careful of that way of thinking. God and HIS HOLY KINGDOM is much much bigger then capital letters and translations of HIS book.

 

[Vidi]

Acts 13:49

There is a difference between the words spread and published, especially in the way in which eHuman tried to use this verse to show the validity of the Bible.

New International Version (©1984)
The word of the Lord spread through the whole region.

New Living Translation (©2007)
So the Lord's message spread throughout that region.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region.

International Standard Version (©2008)
and the word of the Lord began to spread throughout the whole region.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The word of the Lord spread throughout the whole region.

King James Bible
And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

American King James Version
And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

American Standard Version
And the word of the Lord was spread abroad throughout all the region.

Bible in Basic English
And the word of the Lord went through all the country.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the word of the Lord was published throughout the whole country.

Darby Bible Translation
And the word of the Lord was carried through the whole country.

English Revised Version
And the word of the Lord was spread abroad throughout all the region.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

Weymouth New Testament
So the Lord's Message spread through the whole district.

World English Bible
The Lord's word was spread abroad throughout all the region.

Young's Literal Translation
and the word of the Lord was spread abroad through all the region.

When the Kings James version uses the word publish, they are using this definition:

to announce formally or officially; proclaim; promulgate.

to make publicly or generally known.


Not this one:

to issue (printed or otherwise reproduced textual or graphic material, computer software, etc.) for sale or distribution to the public.

They SPOKE the Word of God. They placed it on the hearts of man.

Additionally, Look at John 1 which was quoted to me earlier

New International Version (©1984)
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

New Living Translation (©2007)
We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning, whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life.

English Standard Version (©2001)
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--

International Standard Version (©2008)
What existed from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we observed and touched with our own hands-this is the Word of life!

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The Word of life existed from the beginning. We have heard it. We have seen it. We observed and touched it.

King James Bible
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

American King James Version
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked on, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

American Standard Version
That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life

Bible in Basic English
That which was from the first, which has come to our ears, and which we have seen with our eyes, looking on it and touching it with our hands, about the Word of life

Douay-Rheims Bible
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the word of life:

Darby Bible Translation
That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life;

English Revised Version
That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life

Webster's Bible Translation
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the word of life;

Weymouth New Testament
That which was from the beginning, which we have listened to, which we have seen with our own eyes, and our own hands have handled concerning the Word of Life--

World English Bible
That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we saw, and our hands touched, concerning the Word of life

Young's Literal Translation
That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we did behold, and our hands did handle, concerning the Word of the Life --

How is the word "word" different in these passages?

Some of them capitalize some do not. Capitalization denotes intent. SOME translation place the word as more important than others.

 

[HyOnLyph]

To say that the Bible is The Word of God, infallible and unmutable, is to say it is akin to God Himself, and flies in the face of both logic and the physical evidence of any book store.

take this for example:
While most of these translations say essentially the same thing, there are nuances to each and there are two that stand out and say something different. Gods Word and Youngs Literla. Youngs being the closest to the original text.

the nuance of "desperately" as an adjective to describe incurable adds more nuance.

then look at New Living which takes "lack of understanding" and actually adds the negative "bad" or Gods Word version which adds "how deceitful it is"


These are important!!!

If as Lisa says and most of you will claim, that this is our link to God and His vision of the world, it has become corrupted through translation. If it is our duty to spread the Word of God, then it must also be our duty to verify what we are spreading. Its easy to point to the Bible and say," Here is the Word of God!" but it's not true and anyone with logic and a library can prove that what Christians refer to as "The Word of God" is a living changing document and therefore, cannot be "law", a guide yes. A book of suggestions, yes, But law? no.

Therefore, if God loves us, and we are in danger of eternal separation from Him, then He would place His Word, His Law somewhere no man can touch and sully.

I believe that men, looking to have power over other men, changed the Bible, added to the Bible and took away from the Bible. But they didn't change ALL of the Bible. There are still parts of God in there. These parts are like a DaVinci Code giving us signs as to where to find God. The Kingdom of God is within you. Yet, Jeremiah 17:9 denies this. It says we cannot trust ourselves to know what is right. I agree if we are to be guided ONLY by ourselves. But if we walk with God by our side, within us, with His Truth written on our heart, then our hearts are pure because God is there. Our hearts are NOT deceitful, because God is there. The heart is cured, because God is there. Who can know the heart? God can.

The Word of God is not in a book, it's written on your heart.



On an unrelated and historical note, look at the next verse Jeremiah 17:10...If you know your history, you will understand the importance of this verse. It is in this verse that the protestant split becomes heretical

Honestly... this is really a silly argument... and appears to just be argumentative.
I don't think anyone would dispute that there is a difference between something being the original language of any book vs a translation. You are disputing translations. Most everyone here understands that scripture in it's original text is what is being discussed. We all know that King James English is not the original text. Whether or not one views the Bible as the Word of God, to argue that it is NOT simply because it has been translated into multiple languages is very poor logic.

 

[Vidi]

LOL!!!! I've placed the Bible on the same level as Jesus because I capitalize the word Bible? Seriously? You don't know me at all.

The original writings were inspired. We have translations of those texts today in our own language. God's language is universal, translation does not matter. You are hung up on details......details...details like translations and capital letters. Be careful of that way of thinking. God and HIS HOLY KINGDOM is much much bigger then capital letters and translations of HIS book.

Did I say that capitalizing the word Bible was the issue? Reread what I wrote. Then pay attention to the rules of speech. The Bible is a proper name, it therefore gets capitlaized whenever its used. That what we do with proper names. You on the other hand capitalize the phrase Word of God and then say that the Bible and Word of God are one in the same.

Again which version of HIS book?

They cant ALL be the divine Word of God when they dont say the same things.

Be careful of that way of thinking.

Wow, how incredibly offensive is that statement.

 

[LisaLisa]

Acts 13:49

There is a difference between the words spread and published, especially in the way in which eHuman tried to use this verse to show the validity of the Bible.




When the Kings James version uses the word publish, they are using this definition:

to announce formally or officially; proclaim; promulgate.

to make publicly or generally known.


Not this one:

to issue (printed or otherwise reproduced textual or graphic material, computer software, etc.) for sale or distribution to the public.

They SPOKE the Word of God. They placed it on the hearts of man.

Additionally, Look at John 1 which was quoted to me earlier



How is the word "word" different in these passages?

Some of them capitalize some do not. Capitalization denotes intent. SOME translation place the word as more important than others.

If you personally feel the need to learn hebrew and greek so that you can read the original texts in their original languages, then do so. I don't feel the need to do that.

Do whatever you need to do in order to strengthen your faith because your level of faith, and your relationship with Him is the most important thing. Do not let this be a stumbling block to you. Take it to Him in prayer.

 

[LisaLisa]

Did I say that capitalizing the word Bible was the issue? Reread what I wrote. Then pay attention to the rules of speech. The Bible is a proper name, it therefore gets capitlaized whenever its used. That what we do with proper names. You on the other hand capitalize the phrase Word of God and then say that the Bible and Word of God are one in the same.

Again which version of HIS book?

They cant ALL be the divine Word of God when they dont say the same things.

Wow, how incredibly offensive is that statement.

One would only be offended by what I said, if one was looking for a reason to be offended.

 

[Vidi]

Honestly... this is really a silly argument... and appears to just be argumentative.
I don't think anyone would dispute that there is a difference between something being the original language of any book vs a translation. You are disputing translations. Most everyone here understands that scripture is it's original text is what is being discussed. We all know that King James English is not the original text. Whether or not one views the Bible as the Word of God, to argue that it is NOT simply because it has been translated into multiple languages is very poor logic.

Honestly its not a silly argument. It matters. In my opinion, the vast majority of Christians have been led astray and are breaking Gods first commandment.

Also, you argument is contradicting itself. If you know that King James Version is not original then requote the passages I quoted above from the ORIGINAL TEXT.

You cant can you?

of course you cant. SO we are NOT discussing scripture in its original text as you put it BECASUE YOUVE NEVER SEEN THAT VERSION OF THE BIBLE. So the ONLY 'Word of God" you have any real knowledge of is its translations.

Therefore, how can you know the Word of god when you Cannot READ the original text. You're trusting some translation written by MAN with the fate of your immortal soul. And that man ( actually a group of men ) lived 400 years ago and had a King to please.

 

[Vidi]

If you personally feel the need to learn hebrew and greek so that you can read the original texts in their original languages, then do so. I don't feel the need to do that.

Do whatever you need to do in order to strengthen your faith because your level of faith, and your relationship with Him is the most important thing. Do not let this be a stumbling block to you. Take it to Him in prayer.

Lisa, Do you believe that it is your duty to spread the Word of God as the truth?

 

[LisaLisa]

Honestly its not a silly argument. It matters. In my opinion, the vast majority of Christians have been led astray and are breaking Gods first commandment.
.

What commandment am I breaking? Post the commandment so that I can read it and understand where you're coming from.

 

[LisaLisa]

Lisa, Do you believe that it is your duty to spread the Word of God as the truth?

Yes, of course.