Cartomizerfillinator

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Vapian

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Someone just brought this link to my attention:

CartoJet - CartoBlast Units

Now, first things first: I am not asking for and do not want any kind of finger-pointing or flaming; we've been over that before, right? I'm not necessarily in this to make money and will not stop working on this as a collaborative, "open source" concept and device. So y'all behave now. That's an order. :)

What I'm more interested in are the prices. Based on what you've seen and what you know:

- Are those prices you'd be willing to pay for such devices, fully built/assembled? If not, what do you see as a reasonable price for such devices?

- If you wanted a Carto-Filli-Clean-Inator, would you rather a) use the videos as a guide to source the parts and build it yourself, b) buy a kit with all the parts that required just a little work on your part, or c) buy a completed kit you could use right away?

Just putting my toe in the water here, since more folks seem to be diving right in. :)
 

FantWriter

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Vapian --
While looking for something else, I stumbled across this site:
Luer to Tube Barb

I didn't see any prices listed, and I don't know if you're interested, but it seems to me to be a faster/simpler way to connect the tube to the syringe, and you could change it from the washing syringe to the filling syringe without taking the carto out of the tubing.

Just a thought . . .
 

Vapian

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Vapian --
While looking for something else, I stumbled across this site:
Luer to Tube Barb

I've seen similar things, will have to take a closer look when I get home later. One of the things I've been working on simplifying is based a bit on some of your work combined with some of mine. I'll try to remember and make sure you get a first look at it once the method is tweaked and see what you think.

Thanks for the link!
 

Uncle

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First off - I do hear ya and I'll behave and keep my BIG MOUTH Shut . . . View attachment 51308
I'll just send you a PM later . . .


Just my :2c: and to answer your question . . . And trying really hard to be as unbiased as humanly possible . . I will put on my most Ethical and Professionally Objective Evaluator's hat on for the benifit of you and this thread . . .

Are those prices you'd be willing to pay for such devices, fully built/assembled? If not, what do you see as a reasonable price for such devices?

At first glance WHAT? The list price verse their price . . . Supposedly they are the developers and have a patient pending . . . So what is with that ?

Okay - putting that aside . . . Now strictly given the price they are actually charging as "their price" does not look too unreasonable - particularly for the whole set or "combo" as they are calling it . . . But as someone who is always looking for a deal, especially given my resources I would not necessarily purchase them even if they offered them at a bigger discount now . . .

AND, the reason WHY - I would not pay that price is because if you take a really close look at the products they are offering and after looking at the videos on the website, I do not see anything special about them at all . . . More importantly, that I could not find those individual items myself, especially if I took the time and if I were to go on a search on the Internet or in a drug store or "medical supply house" and/or better yet I would just be able to get those items from the "clinic" . . .

In addition, the "product/s" (????) they are showing is not a single/complete unit and/or different types of products as it may look . . . To me the the "Carto Jet" as they are calling it - looks very much like just a large ended syringe (like the ones already post somewhere on ECF for "Baby Food" I think and can be gotten readily) with a piece of tubing just stuck to it and then they supply you with another piece of tubing to stick on the cartomizer and called it the "CartoBlast" . . .

So from my prospective, and after just doing a fast search for "Medical Grade" syringes - the first one I found, the "Medical Grade" syringes are $43.99 per 100 that would be about $.43 each and then what it would cost for tubing - the price they are charging for an un-constructed product that is just approximately 3 different pieces put together and then just can be "pulled" apart as easily - is absolutely not reasonable or something I would pay . . .

Now again - that's just my :2c: and as unbiased as I can be and also as an ethically professional evaluator's opinion . . . And, I hope it helps . . .

AND - On a personale note and to answer you second part of this question: Now if it was a real set and already put together - I don't think the actual "Prices" that they are charging to be to unreasonable for the items . . . However, I think a better price point would be - just the single unit between $5.95 - $7.95 and a Combo or Set that would include both a "Cleaner & Filler" (2 different pieces) being $9.95 to $14.95 max would be better . . . AND, again as someone who is always looking for a deal, especially given my limited resources I would always be waiting for a discount or sale to purchase anything. . .


EDIT: Hey - That avatar with your picture - What's with that eye thing - Now stop looking at me that way . . .
YES - Chief - SIR ! ! ! . . . I heard your orders - SIR ! ! ! (Now - if I could only find a "smiley" that is saluting - I would have put it here just for YOU!)
 
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ricks

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- If you wanted a Carto-Filli-Clean-Inator, would you rather a) use the videos as a guide to source the parts and build it yourself, b) buy a kit with all the parts that required just a little work on your part, or c) buy a completed kit you could use right away?

Just putting my toe in the water here, since more folks seem to be diving right in. :)[/QUOTE]

I would say b&c... A is too much work.
 

Uncle

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- If you wanted a Carto-Filli-Clean-Inator, would you rather a) use the videos as a guide to source the parts and build it yourself, b) buy a kit with all the parts that required just a little work on your part, or c) buy a completed kit you could use right away?

They all seem as equally possible and not unreasonable to offer to people . . .

And here is where the price would and could really be different for people - especially for those people that are DIY'ers and those who are on a strick budget . . .

Just my :2c: and personal opinion again . . .

YES - Chief - SIR ! ! ! Just my opinion . . .;)
 

nanovapr

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Along the same lines, Smoktek is selling a cartomizer cleaner. I will not opine on this too hard, except to notice that the thumb loop thing looks easy to make it one-handed, but it looks like an add-on to any syringe.

Zoom in on the pic a bit, and notice the crooked cut in the vinyl tubing. I cut condoms with scissors, mine are not straight either, but I am not selling them.

Remember also, that some places will not sell these syringes to the public. I went to one pharmacy and was told that "I need a prescription" (yeah, right) and another pharmacy in the same town said "sure, how many?".

I do think an extra USD 50 cents to "Clear coat to protect printing" is stretching it a little bit, however.

I agree with you, ricks. Joe Average may just want to get something that works. Those of us that like to tinker and make things will not.
 

Hellen A. Handbasket

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I like the syringe of the SmokeTek brand. IMHO priced at $6 to $8 seems fair for these. Over that is highway robbery.

As far as your orders about finger pointing/flaming:

Yes_Sir.jpg


(but then you know how we feel about all that... and YOU Vapian)
 

Iffy

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a) use the videos as a guide to source the parts and build it yourself
Being a tinkerer, this is what I'd probably do.

b) buy a kit with all the parts that required just a little work on your part
Only if I can't find the parts locally.

c) buy a completed kit you could use right away?
Unlikely.

As to the prices, I think that their 'sales' prices are reasonable. If one is not a tinkerer, then I see some value in the setup. Now that's also dependent upon function and durability.

With that settled, I've already made an Iffy's eGo EZ Flush. As to filling...
bad-idea-014.gif
I do it the ol' fashion way.

Vapian, I've closely followed your thread, even linked a possible parts source, and enjoy the progression. So, keep on keeping on!
thumbsup.gif
 

erich

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Maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but there is an easier way to adapt a syringe to a cartomizer:

beforewj.jpg

afterqq.jpg


It's just a plastic drip tip & 5ml syringe. You could glue it if you wanted, but the graduated tip of the syringe makes an airtight seal inside the drip tip. By design the tip fits securely inside the carto (and fills most of the empty volume in which you don't want excess fluid anyway).

Now if only there were an adapter to thread a needle on the battery end of the carto...
 

FantWriter

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Now if only there were an adapter to thread a needle on the battery end of the carto...

I don't know about other sizes, but I just checked and the Luer-Lok end of a needle fits well into the aft end of an 808D-1 battery connector (available from many vendors who cater to modders). A few drops of epoxy should seal it in and hold it firmly.
 

Vapian

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FW, I've messed around a bit with that, but had very inconsistent results. Out of a dozen drip tips I have floating around, some fit tight to a slip tip but most are loose (though they might work with a larger oral or even catheter tip)... and some fit well on 510 but are too loose in an 808, or are too loose in both... maybe a female LL adapter with a tapered barb tip would fit a wider range on the mouth end, but my experience shows lots of variation on the carto end that's more difficult to address.

Now certainly, if you get one that fits your cartos well but the mouthpiece is too tight on a slip tip you can just drill it out a bit, but you have to be careful to keep the inside clean and smooth or it leaks.

The idea is great, actually fantastic if it the parts you have fit together well, so thanks for pointing it out! But the inconsistencies I experienced didn't meet the goals of simple, consistent and versatile. Of course, the Inators don't really meet that goal yet, either. It's kind of the same problem I've been running into with trying to get tubing of the right size and consistently sized for just a couple of applications, much less trying to cover "corner" cases as well.

I'll admit, the GoGo and Echo have me trying to re-think a lot of things to try and come with something truly versatile that doesn't require any adhesive. I'm not sure a single "kit" can do what I'd really like it to do without multiple parts. I really like your idea of getting battery connectors on syringes, it's one of the variations I'm working on but trying to get around "locking" a syringe into a specific configuration.

From the other kits people are selling, I really don't like the idea of boring out or countersinking smaller tubing so cartos can be inserted... it's difficult to do right and the example I've seen is, frankly, a bit sloppy. The other kit seems to use a combination of smaller tubing with thicker walls nested in larger tubing with thinner walls, but the tubing is so long that in my opinion it's just a matter of time before someone spills bottle of nicquid and/or sprays water from a dirty carto all over the place.

One thing my testing has made clear - the flow pattern inside a cartomizer is such that unless you insert a needle to really flush out the battery end it takes more than a few ounces of water to really clean a truly "dirty" carto, and some cartos get to the point they just can't be saved. It's not quite as easy and thorough as some videos out there would have us believe. :)
 

erich

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Hi Vapian,

So first of all, I just wanted to ensure that I'm setting the proper tone here. My first post was succinct and my two images an intentionally sarcastic display of a two-step process that couldn't be simpler. On looking back, though, I realize that it may have appeared crass or belittling, and that wasn't my intention. Your response doesn't suggest that you took it that way, but we lose tone and expression over this medium, so I probably should have been sure by opening with, "Hey, great idea!"

I do think that it's a very innovative approach. In addition to your original purpose of a method by which a blind person could fill a cartomizer, the multitude of methods of which each have their champions and their naysayers suggests that there is a market out there for "a better way". This is definitely breaking the ground for a better solution.

And a bit about me. My other hobby is saltwater aquariums. I'm not extreme like a number of other guys I know who are into the hobby are; I've seen tanks where you had to get inside with scuba gear to do maintenance, but the point being that you wind up with some pretty non-standard plumbing going on in these systems. Half the gear is from Europe, while the plumbing itself uses -- lest I start a flame war -- we'll call them "American units" of measurement. When the fellow at Lowe's asks if he can help me find what I'm looking for, I say, "No, but you could probably point me to the aisle where I could find the parts to build what I'm looking for." "Why is he telling me all this?" you ask? Point being, I've jumped through all types of hoops trying to find a way to make liquids under none-to-some pressure travel through various types of connections that don't align properly, so I feel your pain. :)

So, on to the response:
The idea is great, actually fantastic if it the parts you have fit together well, so thanks for pointing it out! But the inconsistencies I experienced didn't meet the goals of simple, consistent and versatile. Of course, the Inators don't really meet that goal yet, either. It's kind of the same problem I've been running into with trying to get tubing of the right size and consistently sized for just a couple of applications, much less trying to cover "corner" cases as well.
Maybe I just got particularly lucky, but with this clear drip tip & 5ml syringe from LF, the tip of the syringe fits so snugly (there's a hairline plateau at the base that sort of "snaps in" the first time) that I can put a carto on there and shoot water across the room. Not at all suggesting that this is a clean, practical (or marketable) solution, but it seems to do the job quite well for a "poor man's" solution for any 510 (or again the stars were aligned and a BOGE fits better than others, but by design that tip should fit into the cartomizer end pretty snugly with the O ring).

I'll admit, the GoGo and Echo have me trying to re-think a lot of things to try and come with something truly versatile that doesn't require any adhesive. I'm not sure a single "kit" can do what I'd really like it to do without multiple parts.
I'm not sure it's unreasonable to have multiple parts, either in a how-to video, or alternate configurations in a prefab kit. One-size-fits-all would be great for 510 & 808, though, and oddballs such as the GoGo would have special considerations. This is not unlike accessories such as drip tips, lanyards, etc. would be, and I would expect that GoGo users are somewhat accustomed to having to find "special" accessories.

From the other kits people are selling, I really don't like the idea of boring out or countersinking smaller tubing so cartos can be inserted... it's difficult to do right and the example I've seen is, frankly, a bit sloppy. The other kit seems to use a combination of smaller tubing with thicker walls nested in larger tubing with thinner walls, but the tubing is so long that in my opinion it's just a matter of time before someone spills bottle of nicquid and/or sprays water from a dirty carto all over the place.

Yeah, that one with the 2 pieces of tubing is definitely a bit unwieldy. The "just insert this end into the juice bottle" looks pretty spill-prone. Perhaps if it threaded onto the bottle to where it's a sealed system during the part where you need both hands to operate the syringe it would be better, but in all it appears clumsy at best.

One thing my testing has made clear - the flow pattern inside a cartomizer is such that unless you insert a needle to really flush out the battery end it takes more than a few ounces of water to really clean a truly "dirty" carto, and some cartos get to the point they just can't be saved. It's not quite as easy and thorough as some videos out there would have us believe. :)

Heh, yeah, I noticed in the process of trying this "pull in fluid through the battery end" that... wow, this carto is really nasty. :?: Like, cleaning an ash tray nasty. Pulling in and out about 10 times with isopropyl (really should use alcohol for this. Unless you refill it right away it'll mildew in there) dingied up the water and left the filler material looking snowy. However, this introduces one of my prime concerns with this method: To fill it, we're pulling clean liquid in and, we're expelling dirtier juice back out and into our formerly sterile (not really) juice container. That was what prompted my thought of being able to thread the needle onto the carto, with the caveat that we have to stop the second we see juice to minimize the contamination when refilling. The concern being: What is the "dirt" inside of them?
* Is it burned wick/filler material?
* Is it excess food coloring stripped from the repeated use of colored juice?
* A sinister plague that would, if it were to leak out of the mouthpiece, most certainly turn the ill-informed imbiber into a flesh craving zombie?
At some point we also have to be resigned to the fact that these are disposable.

I might just adopt a pattern of adding a sticker on each refill and remove them when cleaning. Something like these labels would do the trick. 4 reds and off to the bath with you.
 

erich

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The market I mention above is largely fully sighted, loves this new "esmoking thing", but they have decided that the cartos are a bit of a pain and would really like something close to the simplicity of opening a pack of smokes when it runs out. Ideally, (in my mind, at least) at some point we have a little box into which you can insert an empty carto, close it, push a button 2 or 3 times, and remove a filled cartomizer. If the "button" just happens to be the plunger of a syringe, either in prototype mode or forever, I think that's fine. On one end of the (I'll call it) magic box, we have a really squishy bottle connected to a tube that is attached airtight to the other end of the carto (still debating which is which, actually. For filling, I tend to think top-down is better as it keeps the black stuff where it is for now, but for rinsing just the opposite). On the other end, we have the pressure mechanism in the form of a syringe. In-out 2 or 3 times and remove the filled carto with little to no waste juice.

As for actually attaching the carto, a 510 cartomizer just happens to be 3/8". I was thinking of something like this: Watts - 1014RB Quick-Connect Reducing Stems - Polypropylene. If you're not familiar with this type of connection, it's intended to make joining polypropylene tubing quick and easy. There is an o-ring down inside to surround the tube, as well as a basket mechanism that sinks tiny teeth in to the wall of the tube. It can't easily be removed without first raising the cage with e.g. a screwdriver, but then slides right back out. I happen to have this type of tip sitting around so I tried it. A 510 cartomizer went in smooth as butter. I destroyed the cartomizer getting it out. The little teeth latch on to the label on the carto and make the union somewhat permanent without large amounts of force. :-/ I'll have to give it another go with just ripping the cage out and seeing if that inner o-ring provides sufficient grip. From there, however, we have a tight grip around anything that happens to be 3/8" in outer diameter (they make other sizes as well, but a bit of a crapshoot on whether these will fit a GoGo... I don't know that diameter offhand, but these are generally in 1/8" increments) that extends a length of fairly rigid poly tubing. Sight unseen, I was thinking we could probably make that the syringe by simply finding/modifying a plunger. Could always just slap a turkey baster ball on the end of it too, though.
 

FantWriter

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FW, I've messed around a bit with that, but had very inconsistent results. Out of a dozen drip tips

Just to set the record straight, I didn't post or comment on the use of drip tips. I saw potential problems with the concept, but I wasn't about to gainsay what works for someone.

I think the only thing that's going to satisfy all situations is something like a break-action -- you open it, put the carto in, and when you snap it closed, rubber-coated, spring-loaded seats seal the ends.

Either that or an expandable mandrel. I once used an expandable mandrel on an ATM doing second work on leadloy, and the only way to get an acceptable finish was to pump coolant through the mandrel while boring. (I say 'I once used' because every time after that, orders for those parts got quietly transferred to someone else's stack of MoDs.)
 

Vapian

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Just to set the record straight, I didn't post or comment on the use of drip tips.

Sorry, FW and erich. Somehow I got my wires crossed when I was responding. My bad!

Will take a closer read after another couple of cups of coffee and see if I can at least reference the correct poster later on. ;)
 

Vapian

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Update: After doing some more pondering I've come up with a variation that seems promising. It's involved source several specific sizes and types tubing and a different female Luer Lock adapter than I've been using, and all the parts arrived today (some of which I wasn't expecting until next week).

I'll be playing with cut sizes and such tonight and report back on preliminary results, but with any luck this should:

- Fit a good variety of cartomizer sizes;
- Allow you to use any Luer Lock syringe without having to glue anything;
- Work with both syringes and the Bottlefillinator;

I'm also hoping that an additional adapter can be made from these parts that might result in better cleaning/flushing near the battery end of cartomizers, but will have to conduct some tests to see if that pans out.

Will post the fit results and maybe some pictures later tonight!
 

Devonmoonshire

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Hi all, after watching the Video on the first page, I actually had everything to try this out and it works great for cleaning cartos. I don't have a large mouth bottle or a need to fill my cartos this way but it works great for cleaning for sure :D

Thank you to Vapian for putting this together;

Nate aka Darth Vapor
 

CGlassford

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Small wide mouth glass bottles can be found in the paint department of most hobby stores for mixing colors. I found they worked great for mixing flavors until my shipment of dropper bottles arrived. :) I would think they would be perfect for the "fillinator".


p.s. I am developing a huge crush on you Vapian lol
 
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