CDC Finally Saying Stop Vaping THC

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englishmick

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vaping" data-source="post: 22119549" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">
A urine test reveals THC use for a month or so after ceasing use. A very simple, cheap test, strips available on Ebay or Amazon for a basic yes/no result. A hair test can detect THC use for much longer.

So it's a big suprise to me that those who lied about THC use have only recently been outed, odd isn't it.

I believe the patient has to give permission for drug testing. And a refusal can't be written up in the patient's record. And they would also have to give their permission for the results to be given to authorities like the CDC. There are some rules about anonymous information being used. I'm not well up on this stuff.

If someone doesn't want to fess up they would probably decline the test as well.

It's unfortunate. That kind of information would help the authorities figure out what's going on.
 

bombastinator

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BT is who is handling these cases of sickness and death?
no. But you know that already. BT is the money you were all over as being the reason behind everything. You seem to want to destroy the only institutions stopping BT from controlling everything because they are a primary target for BT to attempt to control. Destroying them would be equally helpful to BT. BT is also the only one who has been allowed (by BT of course) to release research on the subject which is the only stuff the CDC is allowed to see.
Let's just stick with the second half of the question for a minute.
why?
How certain are you that conventional mainstream vaping products like the ones YOU have been using since at least 2010 are NOT what is causing this outbreak?
So you want me to repeat myself.

Because they didn’t for ten years. You yourself accepted that one in your statement.

Some additional background you may not have:

There were a constant stream of attacks throughout those ten years by way of shoestring minimal studies coming specifically out of Italy. Italy has a law I have been given to understand which protects the identity of those who fund and design studies allowing the effect of “push poll” research to be done. All of these attacks were weathered. Some (a few of the many) of them did produce changes in how people vaped.

The biggest, and the only one it seems now to be of any actual value one was the diacetyl scare. It was fraudulent in its very inception, but it did point to anything containing lipids or anything that could be chemically cracked into a lipid as being a potential problem. It also created the great deeming where the FDA went through and cleaned up the juice industry. Anything containing any lipid or other harmful stuff was removed. This action incidentally separates nic ecigs from THC and CBD stuff by way of regulation and is a main reason the conflation of nic ecigs with these other groups is rejected and laughed at. They’re PROVABLY separate entities, and have been for years now.

Silica wicks were abandoned because of silicosis fears. Cotton was adopted instead. The new pods use silica wicks again. Actual silica damage was never found by anyone though. It was preemptive.

Temperature control was adopted after it was determined that it was possible to create unknown (but apparently extremely small) amounts of questionable chemicals on wicks at high temperatures. Nickel was used as a coil material. Nickel was attacked because there was a theoretical allergy issue with some people and the nickel was capable of producing bat oxides. Nickel was abandoned in favor of titanium. Titanium was attacked because it had similar but different problems. Titanium was abandoned. By that time though technology had advanced enough to do temperature control with stainless steel. Stainless steel has so far proved to be unattackable.
New pods lack temperature control.
All attacks came by way of shoestring studies out of Italy.
If you're not sure, why are you still using them?
Same as basically everyone else here. Because it’s better than dying. Vaping has never been about casual danger. It’s been about the avoidance of serious danger. Finding the LEAST dangerous route to take. Not danger free, least danger filled. Everyone here has ALREADY tried every other smoking cessation option there is and and it has failed for them. Patches, pills, sprays, etc..

I should mention at some point that BT as a concept is not solely Altria. It includes the tobacco companies owned and divested by Altria as well as a few pharmaceutical companies that produce highly profitable smoking cessation products. Galaxy Smith Kline and Jhonson &Jhonson are the two big ones. The pharmaceutical companies hate e-cigarettes because they exposed “the patch” as being fraudulent from the get-go. Patches are nothing but bandaids with unprotonated nic on them. One can make a patch for a dime if one can get ahold of nic base. They hate that. They also hate that e-cigarettes are more effective at keeping people off cigarettes than their products. They are BT too. Many anti smoking activists don’t realize this so they accept help and money from these companies, and lo and behold the efforts they finds produce actually wind up promoting smoking. Drug dealers are drug dealers.

BT has always been about money over lives. All of it. You seem to want to destroy protective agencies thus helping BT. I want to fix them and make them strong again by separating them from damage by BT.
 
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bombastinator

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@bombastinator
Ok, let's simplify this even further. Do you feel that the CDC should be more certain than we are?
I suspect they will be. Eventually. when they finish their research. (which they haven’t) If they do it correctly (one can only hope. They seem to be the nation’s last one)
If so, why aren't they?
because they haven’t finished the research yet. It’s the politicians jumping like mad to get legislation in place before they do
If not, how is it even possible that peons like you and I are quite rightly more informed and certain than they are, as evinced by this very thread, dozens of others like it and an avalanche of other online resources?
because that’s how science works. The CDC people haven’t been living this stuff for ten years. They need to do the tests. All we peons can do is infer information from what is being hidden, how, and by whom. It’s an inherently tinfoil hat like behavior. I wouldn’t trust me without research either. That’s why only an 8.
The bottom line is, they are at bare minimum at least as certain as we are
not exactly. They’re not finished yet. They have a lot of very questionable science done primarily for purposes of manipulating them to see through. They may or may not. I hope they do.
which then of course makes my point entirely valid.
nope.
Which is, WHATEVER their motivation is, it is NOT the truth and public health. Which makes them evil lying hypocrites.
Again nope. A lie is a different thing. A lie is knowing something is not true and then saying it is true. They are starting from the assumptions laid out for them by BT. Falling for them may make them fools, and possibly hubris filled incompetents, but it doesn’t make them liars. The liars are BT.
 

bombastinator

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Yet the media is still conflating the issue like :censored:. Some stupid doctor on TV right now is saying that if someone takes a hit off of someone's e-cigarette at a party, they should immediately go to a doctor. :rolleyes:
Which one? Find out. That’s a license that could be pulled.
 

gsmit1

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I suspect they will be...
They will at some point in the future, be as certain as we are, at present?

It’s the politicians jumping like mad to get legislation in place before they do
You think the CCD aren't politicians? Or, as politically motivated as the politicians are that fund and control them?

Listen friend, you have a lot more faith in these people than I do after watching them operate for 25 years. I have more respect for the mob. At least they rip me off without pretending to have my best interests at heart.
 

classwife

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Does anybody REALLY believe that these highly educated medical bureaucrats actually do not know exactly what's going on here? Seriously? They're not stupid. They're evil. That's even worse.


They held back information that could have saved lives.

They are murderers.

 

bombastinator

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They will at some point in the future, be as certain as we are, at present?
you’re cutting quote fragments so small I can’t even tell where you’re pulling this from. You’ll notice I don’t do that to you.
You think the CCD aren't politicians?
the CDC you mean? Autocorrect is annoying. Yes. Everyone but the top guy anyway, and possibly not even him depending on whether leadership has been filled or not. It has do so with the way government science is done. In government science if you “go political” your job lasts only as long as the current administration. People like their jobs. My dad was a research entomologist for the USDA in the seventies. He did decide to “go political” at the very end but he agonized about it literally for weeks and in the end he did it only because he was a single .... hair from retirement and had to extend his employment so it would end when the administration did. And even then he was pretty sure it was just going to be a formality. How often does the presidential advisor on entomology get a call? The USA didn’t get a lot of swarms of locusts or whatever at the time.
Specifically
Or, as politically motivated as the politicians are that fund and control them?
that funding bit is more of a problem. Funding would be the method of control. It used to be a fixed problem though. The brokenness is new. I think it can be fixed again
Listen friend, you have a lot more faith in these people than I do after watching them operate for 25 years. I have more respect for the mob. At least they rip me off without pretending to have my best interests at heart.
You’ve never watched the mob in action then. Neither have I, but I heard stories. My stepmother weathered world war 2 as a Quaker in bad piermont Germany. Quakers weren’t as bad off as Jews there but it wasn’t great. She ate a lot of “rabbit” which her mom hunted in the barn with a bat. Still won’t eat rabbit.
The mob has ruled before in a lot of places. The mob ruled France for a while. The period is known a “the terror”. Napoleon was actually a giant improvement.
The mob ruled China during “the Great Leap Forward”. You wear glasses? They would have beaten you to death. For wearing glasses. No, really.

The mob is THE worst solution. Every time.
 

jandrew

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I suspect they will be. Eventually. when they finish their research. (which they haven’t) If they do it correctly (one can only hope. They seem to be the nation’s last one)
...
One of the CDC's big roles is epidemiology and outbreak detection and mitigation. Yet they have failed miserably to put forward their best information in a timely manner in this case. Right from the beginning it was obvious this was NOT a general vaping related illness in any way shape or form ... sudden, geographically restricted, clusters of acute lung illness among mostly young people is obviously not being caused by a product used by millions for more than a decade worldwide. Epidemiology 101 would tell anyone that (and the CDC has people who write books on epidemiology).

Give these a read:
The emotional and irrational hysteria in the US about the “vaping-related” (or cannabis-related?) lung disease that goes far beyond confirmation bias
The witch hunt against e-cigarettes continues while people get sick from illicit THC and remain uninformed

Dr. Farsalinos is a little less fully critical of the CDC than I am at the moment --- I used to think of them as hero's for the outbreak work they've done around the world, often in quite dangerous conditions. But their foot dragging here, and willfully allowing this crisis to fuel anti-vaping sentiment (and policy), when they knew/know better than anyone that it wasn't, and isn't, an e-cigarette problem or a 'vaping related illness', is nothing short of a complete and deliberate failure of their mandate, and the public health.
 

sofarsogood

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What keeps the door open for politics in the FDA and CDC is the opportunity to leave government service and join a private firm for a handsome pay raise. Exhibit A--Scott Gottlieb.

The obvious manipulations by the CDC to scare people is inexcusable. I don't trust them. The FDA is nothing but lawyers, read their stuff.
 

bombastinator

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One of the CDC's big roles is epidemiology and outbreak detection and mitigation. Yet they have failed miserably to put forward their best information in a timely manner in this case. Right from the beginning it was obvious this was NOT a general vaping related illness in any way shape or form ... sudden, geographically restricted, clusters of acute lung illness among mostly young people is obviously not being caused by a product used by millions for more than a decade worldwide. Epidemiology 101 would tell anyone that (and the CDC has people who write books on epidemiology).
agreed. Something was clearly rotten with that preliminary announcement. I’m not ready to say it’s complete horsepucky though. I want to know who specifically made the announcement. One possible worry is the “the artist” factor. I.E. lazy journalists who want something too much.
Back in the day Prince was fighting with his studio over ownership rights but that fact was not well known somehow. Maybe stupid, maybe successful repression of information, I don’t know. At any rate the news was Prince was changing his official name to a symbol and the popular assumption was that he was doing it because he was crazy. Not the true one, but it’s what was being handed out. At any rate, some reporter asked him about his name and he made a joke. He said “you all call me ‘the artist’ (which the media was doing) reporters immediately rushed off because they had gotten “the name”. Even if it was a joke. They didn’t care. They should have, but they didn’t. They had dollar signs dancing in their eyes. Journalists are humans too.
They did eventually though. Years later. Not near fast enough of course. You can still lie to all of the people some of the time.
skimmed the first one. sounds like the good doctor has his .... in a box to me. Sounds like he’s also being listened to looking at the new stuff coming out of the CDC
Second article could be summed up “reporters can’t do science or even understand it very well. Here’s LART level proof”
Sound right? For the record I swear to God (something I personally take seriously) that I made the statement about Prince above before reading either article.
Dr. Farsalinos is a little less fully critical of the CDC than I am at the moment --- I used to think of them as hero's for the outbreak work they've done around the world, often in quite dangerous conditions. But their foot dragging here, and willfully allowing this crisis to fuel anti-vaping sentiment (and policy), when they knew/know better than anyone that it wasn't, and isn't, an e-cigarette problem or a 'vaping related illness', is nothing short of a complete and deliberate failure of their mandate, and the public health.
I kind of agree with a few critical exceptions.

“Willfully allowing” is one. Someone was willful about things. I’m not sure it was actually the CDC though. I really want to know who. And put them in prison perhaps. For sure get them away from anything life/safety related. Also maybe find out if they were compensated for the behavior, by whom, and then put that entity in prison. You don’t bribe/subvert critical life/safety personnel without punishment. Serious punishment. The issue is who set that in motion.

“Deliberate” is another. I am angry about it too but I want to make sure the anger is properly directed. The good doctor (I’m not going to even try to type that name) seems to think it was lazy I’ll informed media. He might be right. You want the ball dropper. I want that too but it’s not super clear who dropped it. I also want to know if the fumble was forced and if so who forced it.
 

bombastinator

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What keeps the door open for politics in the FDA and CDC is the opportunity to leave government service and join a private firm for a handsome pay raise. Exhibit A--Scott Gottlieb.

The obvious manipulations by the CDC to scare people is inexcusable. I don't trust them. The FDA is nothing but lawyers, read their stuff.
Yup. Corporate Bribery on the back end. There was something about putting a 5 year waiting period on such stuff bandied about during the Obama administration. Don’t know what came of it.
 
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gpjoe

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This whole thing brings back memories of the paraquat disaster in the 1970's where the US government sprayed crops in foreign countries with a pesticide that ended up making a bunch of hippies real sick.

Is Uncle Sam's alphabet soup of enforcement agencies back up their old tricks?
Hmmmm

We weren't all "hippies". I prefer "stoners", thank you. :)
 

englishmick

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They held back information that could have saved lives.

They are murderers.

I guess it's still the case that they can't be entirely certain that only black market THC vapes are behind the mystery illnesses. But if there was a mystery illness killing people who had eaten salad and they thought the culprit was almost certainly radishes they would say be careful of salads and DON'T EAT RADISHES. In a life or death situation people in their position have a duty to give out whatever information they have even if it isn't at the point of certainty yet. I don't think they did that.
 

jandrew

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I kind of agree with a few critical exceptions.

“Willfully allowing” is one. ...

“Deliberate” is another. ...
I understand where you are coming from but ... I'm still going with willfull and deliberately misleading, without caveat.

The CDC has some of the top epidemiologists in the world (not to mention top class labs for toxicology/biohazard analysis). That their initial statements were as vague and misleading as they were is certainly an embarrassment, but, by itself, perhaps not evidence of anything more sinister than poor communication ... that it wasn't very quickly expanded upon with a more accurate statement, more details, and a more serious attempt at mitigating actual deaths was a willful/deliberate act. If outside influence (governmental or other) was involved that should be tracked down and dealt with harshly ... but the CDC's failure to provide appropriate and timely information to the public has to rest ultimately on the director(s) at the CDC.

I mean, come on ... this is still the top of the CDC homepage as of 5 minutes ago:
Screenshot 2019-09-28 at 6.55.35 PM.png


So, still associated with "E-Cigarette Use, or Vaping" ... THC still doesn't make the graphic ... but, yes, if you click the graphic you'll get further info that does mention THC (and that 77% of victims self-report using THC, while 16% self-report as nicotine only), along with the recommendation that: "While this investigation is ongoing, CDC recommends that you consider refraining from using e-cigarette, or vaping, products, particularly those containing THC."

But hey, right at the top of the page it says: "CDC 24/7 Saving Lives, Protecting People (TM)", so there's that.
 
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