- Status
I'm really just posting to subscribe to this thread. But, I'm wondering also if Sigma will want to get into the e-cig business. Even knowing as little as I do about them, I tend to think they will NOT want to go from being a reputable supplier selling chemicals to labs and chemists to supplying a bunch of us who want to smoke e-cigs (and don't forget us in the US).
I think we need someone in the UK and the US to start buying this and doing the dilution and then selling it to all of us at much lower prices. And, then, of course, we may be just where we started in pricing, but better than where we started in availability-- until the seller's name gets around and he or she comes under scrutiny. Actually, I can't see this happening.
Duncan, on this page there are all sorts of chemicals that have nicotine IN them:
................
What are all of those products?
I think we need someone in the UK and the US to start buying this and doing the dilution and then selling it to all of us at much lower prices. And, then, of course, we may be just where we started in pricing, but better than where we started in availability-- until the seller's name gets around and he or she comes under scrutiny. Actually, I can't see this happening.
Duncan, on this page there are all sorts of chemicals that have nicotine IN them:
................
What are all of those products?
Last edited by a moderator:
We need to clarify that, obviously. It will be for Sigma to indicate which is the most suitable. I picked one of the cheaper ones because the nicotine component of e-liquid is obviously not expensive. If it were, a 36 mg liquid would be more expensive that a 9mg - but it isn't.
Last edited by a moderator:
That's quite an assumption. The nicotine component may also have little bearing on the price because of the low concentration.
I can predict a number of considerations you'd have to make when mixing up the e-liquid. For instance when heated, nicotine burns before it evaporates, so even ignoring the toxicity, pure nicotine would be unsuitable for vaping. (And there'd be other issues like producing a stable solution, etc., avoiding anything that reacts chemically in a bad way at the temperatures inside an atomiser.)
In other words, it sounds like you'd be asking ............ to develop a fairly sophisticated product, not just taking the most suitable bottle of nicotine off the shelf and diluting it in PG. You might even run into patent issues.
Meanwhile I just came across this semi-relevant but interesting study: http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/reprint/34/6/1791.pdf?ck=nck
I especially noted the wording in the conclusion: "nicotine is always less hazardous than using tobacco." For what it's worth.
I can predict a number of considerations you'd have to make when mixing up the e-liquid. For instance when heated, nicotine burns before it evaporates, so even ignoring the toxicity, pure nicotine would be unsuitable for vaping. (And there'd be other issues like producing a stable solution, etc., avoiding anything that reacts chemically in a bad way at the temperatures inside an atomiser.)
In other words, it sounds like you'd be asking ............ to develop a fairly sophisticated product, not just taking the most suitable bottle of nicotine off the shelf and diluting it in PG. You might even run into patent issues.
Meanwhile I just came across this semi-relevant but interesting study: http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/reprint/34/6/1791.pdf?ck=nck
I especially noted the wording in the conclusion: "nicotine is always less hazardous than using tobacco." For what it's worth.
Last edited by a moderator:
Now we need specific amounts/sources for the other ingredients. That way we can come up with an idiot proof recipe. Buy specific size bottle of nicotine here, buy this specific amount of pg, and then buy this specific amount of flavoring. Dump all 3 bottles of ingredients together and you have your juice (after mixing properly). This would eliminate the careful measuring required with pure nicotine.
Looks like 5ml of 99% pure nicotine will run $61.50. So anyone know what amouts of the other ingredients to add to this to make a batch of medium strength juice?
Looks like 5ml of 99% pure nicotine will run $61.50. So anyone know what amouts of the other ingredients to add to this to make a batch of medium strength juice?
I don't think we'll be able to buy it unless we're affiliated with a lab or other institution. But, I don't disagree with your point, though it is really really dangerous to handle in this pure form.
Sigma Aldrich supply labs, I'm frankly surprised that this stuff has made its way into private hands. I don't need to tell you how dangerous nearly pure nic is. Sigma sells almost everything, but questions will be asked.
Even though the ........ stuff is quite pure, it's not formulated for human consumption. I think I'll extract the nic from a patch before I start puffing on lab chemicals.
Last edited by a moderator:
I thought the same thing at first, but this stuff is 99% pure nic, from a reputable company. Where do the Chinese get their nic? What's the purity? I'd take known lab chemicals over unknown bottles from china any day. Especially with all the stories these days about contamination from other sources making its way into chinese products. I'd prefer to think that my liquid was mixed in a sterile white room by a guy in a hazmat suit.
Just my .02
I would have to strongly advise that noone attempts this at home - outside a lab environment I don't believe pure nicotine can ever be handled safely, and the very last thing the vaping "scene" needs right now is a death(s) from nicotine poisoning hitting the headlines.
I used to have an account with ....... when I ran a specialist (carnivorous) plant nursery, and bought plenty of toxic chemical for my tissue culturing. It's not difficult to open an account - a bank reference and a letterhead (just to confirm that you're a commercial or research outfit,) is all they require, but from what I remember their terms and conditions expressly forbid the use of their chemicals in products designed for human consumption - and yep, that would definitely include inhalation!
If anyone with access to a proper hazmat lab wants to experiment, I'd say order a sensibly small quanty to experiment with, and I'd love to hear the results. But if you fancy yourself as a mad scientist, and want to knock up gallons of cheap juice in your back room, please think twice. I've handled hazardous chemicals "at home" (though not as hazardous as such an enormous quantity of such a toxic chemical, and certainly not for my own or anyone else's consumption!) and I can tell you - mistakes WILL happen.
No matter how careful you think you're being, stuff gets spilt, contamination occurs, volatile chemicals get into the air/on surfaces/on your skin - even in labs, accidents happen. This is an ENORMOUS quantity of a chemical that could easily kill everyone in your house (probably everyone in your street!)
and since it is specifically NOT formulated for human inhalation, that other 1% in the mix could easily be far worse than our regular juice. 99% pure does NOT mean 99% less damaging - it could be 1% Polonium-210 for all we know.
I used to have an account with ....... when I ran a specialist (carnivorous) plant nursery, and bought plenty of toxic chemical for my tissue culturing. It's not difficult to open an account - a bank reference and a letterhead (just to confirm that you're a commercial or research outfit,) is all they require, but from what I remember their terms and conditions expressly forbid the use of their chemicals in products designed for human consumption - and yep, that would definitely include inhalation!
If anyone with access to a proper hazmat lab wants to experiment, I'd say order a sensibly small quanty to experiment with, and I'd love to hear the results. But if you fancy yourself as a mad scientist, and want to knock up gallons of cheap juice in your back room, please think twice. I've handled hazardous chemicals "at home" (though not as hazardous as such an enormous quantity of such a toxic chemical, and certainly not for my own or anyone else's consumption!) and I can tell you - mistakes WILL happen.
No matter how careful you think you're being, stuff gets spilt, contamination occurs, volatile chemicals get into the air/on surfaces/on your skin - even in labs, accidents happen. This is an ENORMOUS quantity of a chemical that could easily kill everyone in your house (probably everyone in your street!)
and since it is specifically NOT formulated for human inhalation, that other 1% in the mix could easily be far worse than our regular juice. 99% pure does NOT mean 99% less damaging - it could be 1% Polonium-210 for all we know.
Last edited by a moderator:
I work in a hazmat suit quite often, We have a lab at work with scrubbed pressurized air (to breath) and the whole lab runs negative pressure.We also go through what we call "the car wash" when leaving the lab. I mess with some pretty nasty stuff in there!! GB,MD,AC for example.
All I wanted to add to this is people DO NOT mess with 100% nicotine!! I can put it into perspective for you this way.. During WW2 the Nazi's used a chemical called "Zyklon B" to kill millions!!! PURE NICOTINE IS 3 TIMES MORE TOXIC!
All I wanted to add to this is people DO NOT mess with 100% nicotine!! I can put it into perspective for you this way.. During WW2 the Nazi's used a chemical called "Zyklon B" to kill millions!!! PURE NICOTINE IS 3 TIMES MORE TOXIC!
Yes. The oral and dermal LD50s of nicotine are both about 50 mg/kg. Hydrogen cyanide as used in Zyklon-B by comparison is 100-200 mg/kg. That means an 80-kg person (slightly heavier than average for those of you who are non-metric) will have a 50% chance of dying if exposed to 4 g (4 ml) of nicotine via the skin. This is extrapolated from tests on animals of course, but it's safe to say that spilling even a small amount on your hand would be suicide. I don't know how sharply the curve bends around the LD50 point, but at some point above those 50 mg/kg you'll have 100% lethality. Also worth noting is that much less than a lethal dose can still cause a lapse in judgment, seizures or unconsciousness, which is highly undesirable when you're in the process of handling nicotine.
That being said, though, I'd hate for this sort of consideration to become an argument for banning electronic cigarettes. A LOT of substances become highly toxic in concentrated form. Caffeine, for example, is almost as toxic as hydrogen cyanide (except it is not easily absorbed through the skin, AFAIK). So anyway, it's just to underline that it's not so much the nicotine itself that presents this danger, as the fact that it's in concentrated form.
Also, while the numbers do show that nicotine is highly toxic, as soon as people find out that it's toxic, they often start to make up their own stories about just how toxic it is. I've heard that a single drop could kill 30 people, for example, but doing the arithmetic that's clearly off by a factor of 3000. Yet when public opinion and actual science conflict in this way, very often politicians choose to disregard the facts, which is why I think it's important to "keep ones balance" when talking about drugs, and especially my beloved nicotine.
That being said, though, I'd hate for this sort of consideration to become an argument for banning electronic cigarettes. A LOT of substances become highly toxic in concentrated form. Caffeine, for example, is almost as toxic as hydrogen cyanide (except it is not easily absorbed through the skin, AFAIK). So anyway, it's just to underline that it's not so much the nicotine itself that presents this danger, as the fact that it's in concentrated form.
Also, while the numbers do show that nicotine is highly toxic, as soon as people find out that it's toxic, they often start to make up their own stories about just how toxic it is. I've heard that a single drop could kill 30 people, for example, but doing the arithmetic that's clearly off by a factor of 3000. Yet when public opinion and actual science conflict in this way, very often politicians choose to disregard the facts, which is why I think it's important to "keep ones balance" when talking about drugs, and especially my beloved nicotine.
Careful with your numbers. Yes, in rats the LD50 is ~50 mg/kg. In humans, it is around 50mg per human. Huge difference.
"The LD50 of nicotine is 50 mg/kg for rats and 3 mg/kg for mice. 4060 mg (0.5-1.0 mg/kg) can be a lethal dosage for adult humans."
Sorry had to remove links. I guess I am too much of a newbie still.
Of course. I was only aiming for the approximate order of magnitude, really, and the comparison to Zyklon-B, the only two things that an LD50 measure is good for, anyway.
Just to be a bit ...., though, an LD50(rat) of 50 mg/kg does not mean that 1 mg/kg couldn't kill a rat, and likewise one example of what can be a lethal dose for a human isn't LD50. I'm not sure the data exists to determine nicotine's LD50 for humans. The experiments required would be rather morbid..
Just to be a bit ...., though
, an LD50(rat) of 50 mg/kg does not mean that 1 mg/kg couldn't kill a rat, and likewise one example of what can be a lethal dose for a human isn't LD50. I'm not sure the data exists to determine nicotine's LD50 for humans. The experiments required would be rather morbid..Hi All,
The discussion so far overlooks one important point. Mixing pure Nic with PG is not at all a guarantee that it will stay mixed. What is the solubility of Nic in PG ? Your mixture could seperate like oil and water and lead to BIG trouble.
Nic is, however, extremely soluble (miscible) in water which is probably why water is found in the recipe for cartridge mixtures of the original chinese formulations. You can find the exact recipes of all cartridge strengths on page 22 of the New Zealand Health research study here: (can'tpost links so): wwwDOThealthnzDOTcoDOTnz/RuyanCartridgeReport30-Oct-08DOTpdf
Just forget about being able to DIY anything with pure Nic.
Heres my idea which exploits the solubility of Nic in water to much more safely make DIY liquid of roughly any desired strength.
Step 1: get a prescription for Nicotrol NRT inhaler Kit which contains around 160 cartridges EACH of which contains 10mg of pure Nic (and inactive components of the product are menthol and a porous plug which are pharmacologically inactive-) of which 4mg is delivered when the user inhales according to their instructions.
See paragraph 1 at: wwwDOTrxlistDOTcom/nicotrol-drugDOThtm
Step2: Cut a cartridge open and wash the inside with say 40 ml (=40 mg weight) of warm distilled water which will hopefully disolve all 10 mg of availble Nic therein to yield 40 ml of solution at 25% Nic concentration ( by weight, assuming 100% dissolution).
I have not yet looked into the solubility in water of the menthol this cartridge also contains but you might have no choice but to end up with mint flavor eliquid if the menthol is also water soluble.
Step3: Mix this 40ml(25%) with say 40 ml of pure PHARMACY or FOOD GRADE PG and you will then have 80ml of roughly 12% (by weight) eLiquid which was manufactured MUCH more safely than all suggestions so far posted here -it seems to me.
You could of increase the Nic concentration by using more than 1 of these cartridges but I do not know what the limit of solubility is for a given quantity of water is.
Maybe someone out there with more chemistry expertise can pick up the ball from here on this idea and fine tune a procedural recipe for us based on these cartridges as that is about the limit of what i can offer as my background is physics not chemistry. ATTEMPT THIS ONLY AT YOUR OWN RISK !
If I am unable ( being in Canada ) to somehow obtain properly manufactured liquids or cartridges I will eventually be trying this approach for myself and if so, i will report the outcome here. I am pretty sure the reasoning and calculations are correct but would appreciate feedback from a Chem guru regarding this idea.
The discussion so far overlooks one important point. Mixing pure Nic with PG is not at all a guarantee that it will stay mixed. What is the solubility of Nic in PG ? Your mixture could seperate like oil and water and lead to BIG trouble.
Nic is, however, extremely soluble (miscible) in water which is probably why water is found in the recipe for cartridge mixtures of the original chinese formulations. You can find the exact recipes of all cartridge strengths on page 22 of the New Zealand Health research study here: (can'tpost links so): wwwDOThealthnzDOTcoDOTnz/RuyanCartridgeReport30-Oct-08DOTpdf
Just forget about being able to DIY anything with pure Nic.
Heres my idea which exploits the solubility of Nic in water to much more safely make DIY liquid of roughly any desired strength.
Step 1: get a prescription for Nicotrol NRT inhaler Kit which contains around 160 cartridges EACH of which contains 10mg of pure Nic (and inactive components of the product are menthol and a porous plug which are pharmacologically inactive-) of which 4mg is delivered when the user inhales according to their instructions.
See paragraph 1 at: wwwDOTrxlistDOTcom/nicotrol-drugDOThtm
Step2: Cut a cartridge open and wash the inside with say 40 ml (=40 mg weight) of warm distilled water which will hopefully disolve all 10 mg of availble Nic therein to yield 40 ml of solution at 25% Nic concentration ( by weight, assuming 100% dissolution).
I have not yet looked into the solubility in water of the menthol this cartridge also contains but you might have no choice but to end up with mint flavor eliquid if the menthol is also water soluble.
Step3: Mix this 40ml(25%) with say 40 ml of pure PHARMACY or FOOD GRADE PG and you will then have 80ml of roughly 12% (by weight) eLiquid which was manufactured MUCH more safely than all suggestions so far posted here -it seems to me.
You could of increase the Nic concentration by using more than 1 of these cartridges but I do not know what the limit of solubility is for a given quantity of water is.
Maybe someone out there with more chemistry expertise can pick up the ball from here on this idea and fine tune a procedural recipe for us based on these cartridges as that is about the limit of what i can offer as my background is physics not chemistry. ATTEMPT THIS ONLY AT YOUR OWN RISK !
If I am unable ( being in Canada ) to somehow obtain properly manufactured liquids or cartridges I will eventually be trying this approach for myself and if so, i will report the outcome here. I am pretty sure the reasoning and calculations are correct but would appreciate feedback from a Chem guru regarding this idea.
sounds good, and I think your math makes sense (but I ain't a chem guru! ) I guess if they ban it we'll have to figure out something like this, but I think I'd go back to combusting if the only choice was menthol! Do you know if it's possible to get a suitable non-menthol NRT source to work with?
) I guess if they ban it we'll have to figure out something like this, but I think I'd go back to combusting if the only choice was menthol! Do you know if it's possible to get a suitable non-menthol NRT source to work with?Mind the units . 1 ml of water is 1 g = 1000 mg. To get a 1% e-liquid you'd need one 10 mg cart to 1 ml of water. So to get 80 ml of 12% liquid you'd need 960 cartridges.
It could work, though, except I'm not too crazy about menthol. How much do the cartridges cost? A normal 30 ml/36 mg bottle should be equivalent to 100 or so carts.
. 1 ml of water is 1 g = 1000 mg. To get a 1% e-liquid you'd need one 10 mg cart to 1 ml of water. So to get 80 ml of 12% liquid you'd need 960 cartridges.It could work, though, except I'm not too crazy about menthol
. How much do the cartridges cost? A normal 30 ml/36 mg bottle should be equivalent to 100 or so carts.Nick - No idea regarding non menthol NRT inhaled products.
Tarzan- Damn, you're right. 1 ml is = 1g since: 1 Liter(1000 ml)= 1KG( 1000g ) so this idea bites the dust because the 160 cart NRT kit is very pricey -costs a couple of hundred dollars i think since it's a 12 week program. oh well, never mind THANKS for the correction !
Tarzan- Damn, you're right. 1 ml is = 1g since: 1 Liter(1000 ml)= 1KG( 1000g ) so this idea bites the dust because the 160 cart NRT kit is very pricey -costs a couple of hundred dollars i think since it's a 12 week program. oh well, never mind
THANKS for the correction !hmm, i wonder if soaking high strength patches would dissolve only Nic ... have to start researching the patents on those to see what they are made of to see if they contain anything else (other than Nic) which is water soluble and also just how much Nic might be harvestable.
- Status
