China's Rise/Downfall of the US

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Logan4_uk

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...all very interesting, but read this,how wierd ??


"Owners of capital will stimulate the working class to buy more and more of expensive goods, houses and technology, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until their debt becomes unbearable. The unpaid debt will lead to bankruptcy of banks, which will have to be nationalized, and the State will have to take the road which will eventually lead to communism."

Karl Marx, Das Kapital, 1867

:|
 

Kate51

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Fighting between them doesn't affect our oil supplies - unless Israel decides to do something stupid like bombing Iran... we have to realize the role Israel and the West have played in destabilizing the Middle East. It's not a one way street!
Destabilizing the Middle East MEANS that they no longer have power of the almighty to dictate their criminal barbaric will over all their people. This is because KNOWLEDGE IS WEALTH. The people now have a comparitive mechanism in place. That is simple enough. It's only a sandbox fight. Like from kindergarten. Oh, crap, that's from the dark ages. Read about Armegeddon. Then turn it around and put America right in the middle of Europe, somewhere, so we can reach everything better to fix it. Those who forget history are bound by glory to repeat it. Let's all choose sides and pick our Napolean. I decided not to say anything political here, so as not to offend anyone's polical sensibilities. There is no more middle class, so let's not worry about that. Anyone ever see Planet of the Apes. That's about where we are, right now. Lady Liberty is just about sunk. But there is hope. The sun will probably come up in the morning. I just looked, and sure enough it did!
 
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BARENETTED

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The US will fall, but it is our own fault.

We used to manufacture most of what we needed right here in the USA. Remember when Made in the USA meant quality and China and Japan made 'junk'. Then we started to import just about everything from overseas because it was cheaper. Manufacturing jobs went overseas and our factories closed. Then we became a service oriented nation. Employers became greedy and started to outsource our services overseas because it was cheaper. Now our service jobs have gone overseas.
How many large US companies actually base their tech support in the USA? When was the last time you called tech support or any other customer service center and spoke to someone who was fluent in the English language?

Foreign goods, foods, cars, oil, electronics, services and technology.
Not much else left. This model is doomed to fail.
 

DangerMouse

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Are you really naive enough to think that a boatload of countries around the globe, starting with the UK, Japan, Germany, pretty much all of Scandinavia, etc, etc... aren't hitting their knees every night thankful that the U.S. is taking the lead in the Middle East to ensure the continue flow of oil to there countries? They don't always say so publicly, but you can bet they are thanking us behind closed doors.

I guess this might be off topic by now with the discussion having moved on.... But... Are you kidding me?!?! Surely you're not serious?!

Or they're happy that we're willing to sacrifice our sons and daughters as well as hundreds of billions of dollars while they reap the rewards of a peaceful Middle East ... i'm sure they're graetful, after all it is because the U.S. acts as their military that they can actually focus on building their economies...
Not forgetting the hundreds of British, and other troops that have died in the middle east, and the thousands and thousands maimed and now unable to live a 'normal' life in the two fantasticlly failed military actions...


Otherwise, yeah, we're all really thankful for everything that George Bush and his crony Blair have done for us.
 

gashin

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I never once made a positive comment regarding Islam. I am not pro-Islam but rather pro-Western culture (I'm asian BTW). I still can't find where you get those statistics though, I've never read them anywhere before.
Explain why the Church of St. Sophia in Constantinople became a mosque in Istanbul. Why is Turkey Muslim? Why is Syria and Lebanon Muslim? Why is Egypt Muslim? Where are the Coptic Christians? Why are there no Jews in Saudi arabia? There are no Jews in Saudi Arabia because Muhammed commanded there should be no Jews in Saudi Arabia.

If Islam is so peaceful, why are millions of people fleeing the Taliban right now in Pakistan? They're fleeing because they are strict in their implementation of Islam and sharia law (codification of life and deeds of Muhammad and statements of Allah in doctrine). The Taliban IS Islam. They are living according to specific dictats of the world of Allah which is Koran and the orders of Muhammad, his one and only prophet-- the perfect human being all Muslims are to follow.

Jihad existed since Muhammad left Mecca. The history of Jihad is 1400 years old. It's not about political borders drawn on a map. This is an ideological military conquest that's been ongoing since Muhammad left Mecca and is still going on now. This isn't about countries or national identity or treaties. This is about the expansion of Islam through violence and jihadl that's it.

The figures I gave you can be found in history books.

The criticism about the Crusades is a sop to ignorant people who don't know history. the crusaders went to Jerusalem in the middle east after decades and decades of pleading by the Christian communities in the middle east for help because they were being massacred by Jihadists. The Crusades was not a cause. It was a response to Jihad. Some of the Crusaders screwed up and massacred innocent people, but not anywhere near to the extent the Jihadists did. Nowhere near.

There is no apologizing for this; it's wrong. But, they were there to protect the Christian communities from Islam and to take back the conquered lands by Jihad. Why are there Knight's Templars Churches all over Lebanon and Syria? Because they tried to rebuild the Christian culture that had been destroyed by Jihad, yet they were unsuccessful.

Muslim violence is not a response to political frustrations. The refusal of the Palestinians to accept a Palestinian state when it was offered to them no less than three times is proof of this. This is not a political struggle. This is Jihad. It's a1400 years old tactic of war that Islam has used with great success across the world. If you look at the books of Islam, it is clear. All adherents of Islam are required to participate in Jihad. This is a religious obligation. Jihad is violent warfare to expand the boundaries of Islam. In modern times, Jihad is meant to destroy all non-Muslim states and cultures and bring them under the dominion of Islam. This is clearly stated in their religious doctrine: no other religions, no other political systems are acceptable to Islam other than Allah's. What you see today in the Middle East is Jihad and nothing else. We see this in Europe and we see this in the U.S. The liberals who know nothing say that this is frustrated poverty rising up against oppression. How did the Khaybar Jews oppress Muhammad? Muhammad massacred (beheaded) all 800 of their men and took all their women as sex slaves. And, Khaybar is chanted today during attacks: "Khaybar Khaybar ya Yahoud, jaish Muhammad saufa ya‘ud" And, no, they're not saying anything nice or cheerful except that they'll do it again and are, I guess, seemingly happy about this part.

The history of Islam is a history of cruel massacres of innocents across the world. This is a tactic called Jihad that allows Jihad to grow. There is no totalitarian system more oppressive to the individual, to women and to non-believers than this. For a comprehensive look at Jihad, read Andrew Bostom's Legacy of Jihad.

Walid Shoebat (former terrorist) You said "I'm not saying Islam isn't guilty but I am saying that the West also had a role in the current mess!". This is absolutely incorrect. The victims have no role in their victimization. Recently a 13- year old girl was stoned to death in Pakistan because she came forward and said she had been gang raped by three men. In Islam, the victim is blamed. In the media of the west, the dhimmi media, the victims are blamed for Jihad. The victims of totalitarian violence are blamed for the violence itself. When a gay kafir walks down the streets of Copenhagen and is beaten or killed by a Muslim mob screaming Allah-hu Akbar, does one blame the victim of the mob? Or, does one say that the existence of the victim impelled the mob to violence? This is moral relativism; this is insanity. It is completely inaccurate in every single sense of the word.

Is thisthe West's fault, too?


Interesting philosophical point. Not relevant, though, since we have what we have.
 

gashin

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I don't know - I don't like the idea of getting run over by tanks just because I'm part of a peaceful rally. However, they have improved quite a bit but there are still instances of human rights abuses that would be considered genocidal here (forced sterilizations and abortions, evictions of entire towns). I think that your attitude is pervasive in the West - but is it good? The West has provided the majority of the worlds' economic, social, and technological progress... the world would be a far worst place without the liberalism (YES WE ARE ALL LIBERALS COMPARED WITH 50 YEARS AGO) that Western society has generated but then this allows for counter-intuitive values such as tolerance and acceptance of foreign domination to pervade our minds and prevent us from actually improving our own national existence.
One thing is sure ....I would be far happier to live under China's rules and laws than live under Moslem rules and laws. The Chinese people might be a bit more repressed than we are but on the whole they have a fairly good society. They can rule the UK if they want I don't think it would make my life much different.
 

Kendra

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I never once made a positive comment regarding Islam. I am not pro-Islam but rather pro-Western culture (I'm asian BTW). I still can't find where you get those statistics though, I've never read them anywhere before.

You haven't read them because you don't know anything about history, Jihad and Islam. Truly, the educational system today is so politically correct (an oxymoron obviously), that they teach Islam EXPANDED. How did they expand, Gashin? Look it up. You have a computer. Look it up now. Also, how did you not know about the Hindu Kush? Haven't you heard of this? Think. How did the middle east become Muslim when it wasn't Muslim; it was Christian. How do you think this happened? Do you think the entire culture thought Islam was so wonderful they all just converted willingly? Read the Koran. . . read the Hadiths and Sira. All these books talk about each battle. . . it's includes the history of Islam including the battles, the bloodshed, etc.

and this jihad history
Also, while I was looking some things up, I came upon this:

The history of political Islam is the destruction of Christianity in the Middle East, Egypt, Turkey and North Africa.
Half of Christianity was lost. Before Islam, North Africa was the southern part of Europe (part of the Roman Empire).
Around 60 million Christians were slaughtered during the jihadic conquest.
Half of the glorious Hindu civilization was annihilated and 80 million Hindus killed.
The first Western Buddhists were the Greeks descended from Alexander the Great’s army in what is now Afghanistan.
Jihad destroyed all of Buddhism along the silk route.
About 10 million Buddhists died. The conquest of Buddhism is the practical result of pacifism. (italics mine)
Zoroastrianism was eliminated from Persia.
The Jews became permanent dhimmis throughout Islam.
In Africa over 120 million Christians and animists have died over the last 1400 years of jihad.

Also, back to your first post. . . where are our bases in Syria, our colonies in Egypt? In Lebanon, Morocco, Libya? Yes, we're in Saudi Arabia, but we're there to prop them up to keep buying their oil because we're fools (but this is an entirely different unpleasant subject). They OWN US-- we don't colonize or occupy them.

We occupy Iraq because we overthrew their dictator and we naively wanted to build a democracy there, but we failed because Iraq is a Sharia Islamic state; it's in their constitution.
Iraqi Constitution

Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

B. No law that contradicts the principles of democracy may be established. (Source)
 
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gashin

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A blog isn't an academic source. Can you post the books and journals that this link cites from? I don't believe anything from a single source - I need at least 10 creditable sources... and even this isn't enough by academic standards. I do have a copy of the Koran and have read several of the anti-Christian and anti-Semetic quotes. But I seriously doubt the figures you posted.
You haven't read them because you don't know anything about history, Jihad and Islam. Truly, the educational system today is so politically correct (an oxymoron obviously), that they teach Islam EXPANDED. How did they expand, Gashin? Look it up. You have a computer. Look it up now. Also, how did you not know about the Hindu Kush? Haven't you heard of this? Think. How did the middle east become Muslim when it wasn't Muslim; it was Christian. How do you think this happened? Do you think the entire culture thought Islam was so wonderful they all just converted willingly? Read the Koran. . . read the Hadiths and Sira. All these books talk about each battle. . . it's includes the history of Islam including the battles, the bloodshed, etc.

and this jihad history
Also, while I was looking some things up, I came upon this:
 

Kendra

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A blog isn't an academic source. Can you post the books and journals that this link cites from? I don't believe anything from a single source - I need at least 10 creditable sources... and even this isn't enough by academic standards. I do have a copy of the Koran and have read several of the anti-Christian and anti-Semetic quotes. But I seriously doubt the figures you posted.
Do you not read? He has sources right in the articles! This blog is the blog of one of the leading scholars of Islam and the Koran IN THE WORLD. And, the sources for his piece are listed right in the post. Do you see? Do I need to re-type it or copy and paste it for you?

You've admitted you only learned science in school. Well, I've learned about Islam through study for years. So, this is my field. Science is your field.

Read and learn. And, if you have a problem with his sources, then find where they are factually wrong and post it. I'm not posting an op-ed piece. I'm posting a sourced article.

Maybe you're not looking at the correct link I posted?

You need 10 sources? Well, do your own research-- you have a computer and live near a library, right? That's not my job-- I'm not your research assistant. Hopefully, you're eyes are opened and you'll decide to do it rather than post irrelevant opinionated statements that have no basis in fact.

If you choose not to believe the sources because you are too lazy to read and learn, that's not my problem; that's yours. If you disagree with me, give me a counter argument. Saying you don't like what i post and want 10 more sources even though I've given you published sources, is not my problem.

Edited to add: 10 sources are not enough for academic standards? Are you kidding or are you lying? For historians, three sources are generally acceptable. So, I posted one. Go find your own 9 more if that's what you need. :) Have a good night.
 
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gashin

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Those sources he cites look to be propaganda. The only way to know if they are legitimate is if you can find the sources that they cite.
Do you not read? He has sources right in the articles! This blog is the blog of one of the leading scholars of Islam and the Koran IN THE WORLD. And, the sources for his piece are listed right in the post. Do you see? Do I need to re-type it or copy and paste it for you?

You've admitted you only learned science in school. Well, I've learned about Islam through study for years. So, this is my field. Science is your field.

Read and learn. And, if you have a problem with his sources, then find where they are factually wrong and post it. I'm not posting an op-ed piece. I'm posting a sourced article.
 

Kendra

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Those sources he cites look to be propaganda. The only way to know if they are legitimate is if you can find the sources that they cite.


You may not appreciate these sources. If you challenge them, go do your own research. However, it is important you know this: there are not many people in scholarship who are at the level of Bill Warner at politicalislam.com. He is and an established recognized authority of this subject. If you disagree with his sources, it is YOUR responsibility to refute it. In fact, he addressed the parliament of Denmark last week on this very subject and he's going to Norway in just a couple more weeks. There are FEW scholars at his level. Some of them Bat Ya'or, Ibn Warraq, Daniel Pipes. Your opinion of these people is not relevant; the point is they are all scholars of the subject. If you have a definitive argument to make, make it.

If you have a counter-argument to something I have said and you can substantiate your position WITH EVIDENCE, use it, for that is the foundation of debate. My purpose is to educate people-- including you-- on this subject, especially since you posted your opinion on the subject on this thread.

I have a lengthy and substantive background in this subject area. I will be happy to share my knowledge with you and argue substantive points. My interest is not a flame war or an exchange of insults. i have a knowledge in this issue that the vast majority just do not. This is not hubris on my part, either. You said you have scientific knowledge; I do not. I have knowledge regarding Islam and Islamic history; you do not.

It's a good thing you are a scientist and understand the scientific method. If you apply the scientific method to Islam, you will inevitably reach the same conclusions that I have. In addition, one of the most recent books on the subject called, Defeating Political Islam, was written by a nuclear physicist. (Bill Warner's own research is cited in this book, too.)

The use of the term "propaganda" is subjective on your part. The people quoted in the article are commentators. However, there are historians (but very few) who have studied the body count of Jihad since the inception of Islam. A recent book by M.A. Khan (Islamic Jihad) covers this issue in India and across Europe and the historical causations of Jihad. Andrew Bostom's book that I cited before documents the history of Islamic Jihad also. The number 270 million is probably a bit conservative.
 

gashin

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I will take you up on your invitation and order some of the books he cited.
You may not appreciate these sources. If you challenge them, go do your own research. However, it is important you know this: there are not many people in scholarship who are at the level of Bill Warner at politicalislam.com. He is and an established recognized authority of this subject. If you disagree with his sources, it is YOUR responsibility to refute it. In fact, he addressed the parliament of Denmark last week on this very subject and he's going to Norway in just a couple more weeks. There are FEW scholars at his level. Some of them Bat Ya'or, Ibn Warraq, Daniel Pipes. Your opinion of these people is not relevant; the point is they are all scholars of the subject. If you have a definitive argument to make, make it.

If you have a counter-argument to something I have said and you can substantiate your position WITH EVIDENCE, use it, for that is the foundation of debate. My purpose is to educate people-- including you-- on this subject, especially since you posted your opinion on the subject on this thread.

I have a lengthy and substantive background in this subject area. I will be happy to share my knowledge with you and argue substantive points. My interest is not a flame war or an exchange of insults. i have a knowledge in this issue that the vast majority just do not. This is not hubris on my part, either. You said you have scientific knowledge; I do not. I have knowledge regarding Islam and Islamic history; you do not.

It's a good thing you are a scientist and understand the scientific method. If you apply the scientific method to Islam, you will inevitably reach the same conclusions that I have. In addition, one of the most recent books on the subject called, Defeating Political Islam, was written by a nuclear physicist. (Bill Warner's own research is cited in this book, too.)

The use of the term "propaganda" is subjective on your part. The people quoted in the article are commentators. However, there are historians (but very few) who have studied the body count of Jihad since the inception of Islam. A recent book by M.A. Khan (Islamic Jihad) covers this issue in India and across Europe and the historical causations of Jihad. Andrew Bostom's book that I cited before documents the history of Islamic Jihad also. The number 270 million is probably a bit conservative.
 
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