CHIT CHAT in VOLTVILLE

[awsum140]

To answer your question, Sandy, is kind of a cunundrum. There is certainly much higher use of electricity today than when I was a kid. There is, generally, sufficient generating capacity to supply the demand, even in high peaks like heat waves in the summer. The biggest problem is transmission capacity and the aging infrastructure of the power grid. Upgrading is very expensive and installing new transmission lines takes far too long because of all the environmental studies that have to happen. Add to that the cost and time, permits again, to add additional generating capacity and we are rapidly painting ourselves into a corner.

Alternative energy sounds attractive, but solar doesn't work well at night and costs too much to be a practical alternative. The only reason solar is being used is the Government subsidies, and that money comes out of our pockets to make it financially sound for someone else to do.

Wind is nice, but windmills do make noise and kill lots of birds, as in millions right now and again just how many windmills can be built in places where they would work efficiently enough?

Ethanol takes too much conventional energy to produce making it inefficient. Actually the "green house gas" produced to produce enough energy from biological sources, ethanol, is higher than the equivalent "green house gas" produced by coventional carbon fuels if the energy required to grow the stuff is added to the equation. Then there is the issue of 40% of our corn crop currently being used to produce ethanol which raises food prices for everyone, a sort of hidden ethanol tax.

Unfortunately, coal, oil and gas fired power plants are the only viable source, and nuclear is kind of questionable as well. We've already dammed up all the rivers that can produce enough power so hydro is kind of a dead issue as well. Research into fusion reactors has been halted so that's kind of a dead horse already.

I don't think we'll see "rolling blackouts" any time soon, but I think the power situation in California is indicative of what will eventually happen on a much larger scale.

 

[SandySu]

To answer your question, Sandy, is kind of a cunundrum. There is certainly much higher use of electricity today than when I was a kid. There is, generally, sufficient generating capacity to supply the demand, even in high peaks like heat waves in the summer. The biggest problem is transmission capacity and the aging infrastructure of the power grid. Upgrading is very expensive and installing new transmission lines takes far too long because of all the environmental studies that have to happen. Add to that the cost and time, permits again, to add additional generating capacity and we are rapidly painting ourselves into a corner.

Alternative energy sounds attractive, but solar doesn't work well at night and costs too much to be a practical alternative. The only reason solar is being used is the Government subsidies, and that money comes out of our pockets to make it financially sound for someone else to do.

Wind is nice, but windmills do make noise and kill lots of birds, as in millions right now and again just how many windmills can be built in places where they would work efficiently enough?

Ethanol takes too much conventional energy to produce making it inefficient. Actually the "green house gas" produced to produce enough energy from biological sources, ethanol, is higher than the equivalent "green house gas" produced by coventional carbon fuels if the energy required to grow the stuff is added to the equation. Then there is the issue of 40% of our corn crop currently being used to produce ethanol which raises food prices for everyone, a sort of hidden ethanol tax.

Unfortunately, coal, oil and gas fired power plants are the only viable source, and nuclear is kind of questionable as well. We've already dammed up all the rivers that can produce enough power so hydro is kind of a dead issue as well. Research into fusion reactors has been halted so that's kind of a dead horse already.

I don't think we'll see "rolling blackouts" any time soon, but I think the power situation in California is indicative of what will eventually happen on a much larger scale.

Thanks for that very comprehensive summary of the problem. So what's the solution? Short-term, maybe we should have more movements to not use energy when there's another way, like hanging clothes out to dry instead of using a dryer. Maybe the government should stop subsidizing things like solar energy where they don't pay for themselves and put that money into upgrading the power system. I've heard negative things about ethanol, too. I guess it's an experiment that isn't the solution they had hoped for. One argument for fracking in our area is that natural gas is plentiful, relatively clean, and cheap. Of course, that's if all the fracking enterprises keep it clean, and there's a lot of questions about whether that's probable or even possible.

 

[SandySu]

Look at what I found on YouTube: Jean Michel Jarre - Zoolook - Album [ Full HD ] - YouTube I don't know why, but I really like this album. Maybe this would be good music to play while I do my evening exercises?

 

[awsum140]

I'm no expert in power, just a little experience from work and reading here and there. As for a solution, I think that the market will drive the right solution, ultimately. Government funding for research into alternatives is certainly a great idea, but Government trying to make something financially competitive through subsidies is not a real solution. We all pay too much for their mistakes.

I'm no expert with fracking either. Given the depths that it occurs at, I think that if it is done carefully and properly it does present an alternative source for both natural gas and oil. That all presupposes that everyone follows the rules, to the letter, and all safeguards and safety measures are stringently adhered to. Given that dollar is king, that isn't all that likely.

Cutting consumption, in a meaningful way, is another problem. Sure, hanging the clothes out to dry saves your electric bill, keeping the AC shut off and sweltering will do the same thing, but in the scale that power is generated at it won't even be noticeable. Sure, you'll feel good and have a lower bill, but the power plant will keep on running at the same levels anyway. Heck, power companies rarely monitor levels under a few hundred kilowatts unless they think you're stealing power. Short term, just keep your fingers crossed, long term, learn to live without using as much power because it might not be there someday in the future

 

[Konstantine]

Hey!
Yes the power plant will continue to run as usual but it will consume less fuel.

In countries with a lot of sun (i am bragging again) we started using autonomous off-grid solar power units. Energy is used directly from the sun and charging batteries at the same time. At night you will use battery power. Most of the lights can be converted to low voltage (12-24V) to save even more. If you design the system well you won't have problems.
PLus you can add stuff to it too like wind generators etc.
Insulation on the house can save air conditioning etc. For more power hungry devices you can use natural gas.

 

[awsum140]

Konstantine, most people won't convert their lighting to 12 or 24 VDC systems. Then how do you run that coffee maker, dish washer, microwave and so on and so on. Yes, I know about inverters, but the current/power demands far exceed what is financially feasible for the average homeowner or apartment/condo dweller. Combine that with, from what I've seen from solar so far, the rather optimistic ratings of solar panels and you'd need a few acres of solar panels to do anything like what the average home here uses. I know demand can be reduced using solar for some purposes, but I also wonder if anyone has ever considered, or admitted publicly, just how much "carbon power" goes into producing those "pollution free" solar panels and what happens to them at the end of their life cycle. From what I've seen of alternative source marketing, they all stress the "pluses" and forget, entirely, about how the stuff was made and how it needs to be disposed of. That makes it look very attractive, but is very dishonest, kind of like electric cars, "no carbon footprint" except the energy required to produce them and the energy needed to charge them. More bunk!

 

[SandySu]

All you folks experiencing or expecting bad weather, this is for you: Singing In The Rain - Singing In The Rain (Gene Kelly) [HD Widescreen] - YouTube Maybe you'll get snow instead of rain, but the thought can be the same.

One day some years ago, I decided to bombproof Penny to umbrellas. I had one of those that pop open with a push of a button, and I took it to the barn. I put Penny in the riding ring and proceeded to open and close the umbrella, getting closer and closer to her. She seemed curious at first, then paid it no mind. Just to be silly, I started singing the above song and dancing around, twirling the umbrella. Penny looked on and said to herself, "You've got to be kidding!"

Meanwhile, a horse in a pasture quite a distance away, ran like fiends were after him. It was weird. I thought he'd settle down after a while, especially since he was in a distant pasture, but finally the barn owner came out and asked me to stop before the horse had a heart attack. Anyway, bombproofing Penny was sort of fun that day. The only thing she minded about the umbrella was if I put it up over her head, not touching, just as if I was protecting her from the rain. She said, "No way is that contraption getting over my head where I can't keep a proper eye on it." She has always been protective of her head for some reason. This is a horse that could easily become head shy if handled differently. As it is, she's leery of things like umbrellas over her head, and I doubt I'll ever totally break her of it. However, she doesn't mind wearing things on her head like her bridle, fly mask, the fly bonnet I use sometimes when I ride. I think it's if something tickles her ears -- maybe. It's hard to figure out what her objection is.

 

[Konstantine]

Steal panels and batteries solar chargers and if you are lucky an offgrid inverter and the cost will be low.

 

[awsum140]

There's two small "solar farms" right near me and every time I drive by them I think about....well...maybe...a panel or two might not be missed, that is once I stop fuming about all the tax money spent to build them paid to a company based in Germany and all the parts made in China! As the old saying goes - Your tax dollars hardly work

 

[Konstantine]

Depends on the company, some Companies based in Europe use material from EU but they are more expensive.


You had to see Fun with the APSS units from vodafone.
One time the EU has given big money to companies such as vodafone, wind etc to install Autonomous power supply systems, it was a container with huge batteries, solar panels, inverters and a generator. This system could give you 3 phase power at all times. That way the system could work without power from the grid 24/7

They took all the money payed them and installed them and since all companies or smaller contractors ate money they left them without maintenance, most of them broke but 90% of them is stolen and nobody from these companies even give a damn (they got the cash so who cares). All the containers are now on the mountains and antenna locations empty. You want a panel? That is simple go to the mountain and get as many as you want without someone to disturb you. Generator maintenance crews sometimes destroyed them so they can maintain generators (money for them) and over price the oil they run on. That was going on on many countries.
Too bad i loved those systems, they provided a solution to a big problem but money again was the problem.


Off grid systems are easy to make if you know what you are doing and they work fine even if you use 240V-400V (120US).

 

[SandySu]

Konstantine, most people won't convert their lighting to 12 or 24 VDC systems. Then how do you run that coffee maker, dish washer, microwave and so on and so on. Yes, I know about inverters, but the current/power demands far exceed what is financially feasible for the average homeowner or apartment/condo dweller. Combine that with, from what I've seen from solar so far, the rather optimistic ratings of solar panels and you'd need a few acres of solar panels to do anything like what the average home here uses. I know demand can be reduced using solar for some purposes, but I also wonder if anyone has ever considered, or admitted publicly, just how much "carbon power" goes into producing those "pollution free" solar panels and what happens to them at the end of their life cycle. From what I've seen of alternative source marketing, they all stress the "pluses" and forget, entirely, about how the stuff was made and how it needs to be disposed of. That makes it look very attractive, but is very dishonest, kind of like electric cars, "no carbon footprint" except the energy required to produce them and the energy needed to charge them. More bunk!

There are people who live off the grid. I'm not sure if it's for ecological reasons, though. I have a friend who has a friend who lives outside Ithaca who doesn't use any power from outside. No electric lights, they heat their place with a woodstove, that kind of thing. I never visited them, so I don't know all the details. We have numerous Amish families on farms hereabouts, and I think they live off the grid to some extent. They do use some power equipment, though. Just no electricity, though they can fuel it with something -- kerosene? I'm not sure. I once saw what I thought was a weird sight: an Amish man with a weed whacker cutting the weeds in the drainage ditch outside his farmhouse. Another time, there was a team of horses pulling some sort of harvesting equipment in a field, and a motor on that was chugging away. The Amish will get rides in cars but not drive one. They use telephones at a neighbor's house. I've heard that each Amish community has its own rules about how much of this kind of thing is permitted.

When I lived in Turkey in 1971, the summer place had no electricity, so we pumped our water from a well by hand and used kerosine lanterns (the kind you think of for old-fashioned railroads) for light at night. We cooked out on a grill using olive branches, not commercial charcoal as is mostly done here. I think there was some sort of hot plate, like a camping stove, to cook indoors with, too. The toilet didn't flush, so you took a bucket of water into the bathroom with you and poured it down after using the toilet. We swam in the sea each day which kept us clean, and to rinse off the salt, we had a tub of water sitting in the sun that we poured over ourselves.

The winter place in Turkey had electricity, but they used it a lot less than normal Americans. For instance, there was no automatic hot water, though we had cold running water. When you washed the dishes, you heated water on the gas stove. To shower, you fed wood into the bottom of a hot water heater and set a fire and waited till the water got hot, then took a quick shower before the hot water ran out. For heat, there was a big heater in the living room, and I think that used kerosine. No washer or dryer. They had a lady come in once a week who did the washing by hand in the bathtub and cleaned the house. Instead of vacuuming rugs, we'd dampen a broom and sweep them. So the electricity was mainly used for lights and the radio. I asked them why they didn't get a washing machine. The answer was that the purchase price and electric bill would cost more than what they paid the housemaid.

 

[awsum140]

Sandy, I like living in the 21st Century and have no desire to go back at the 1950's let alone the 1800's. I want the water to come out of the faucet, hot and cold, and flush the toilet when needed. I like long, hot, showers. I like the AC when its hot in the summer. I also want to chat on ECF when I get a minute to, LOL. Oh yeah, try and hire a housemaid today, a little more expensive than a washer/dryer and the power to run them, plus today you better have disability insurance for them! Some people are perfectly happy "living off the grid", but they still, ultimately, use that grid in some way on a daily or at least occasional basis.

 

[Konstantine]

The Turks still live like this in the villages. Mongols.

We can still live modern without grid power. Trust me.
I will still have internet, wifi, water, hot food, anything.

 

[SandySu]

Sandy, I like living in the 21st Century and have no desire to go back at the 1950's let alone the 1800's. I want the water to come out of the faucet, hot and cold, and flush the toilet when needed. I like long, hot, showers. I like the AC when its hot in the summer. I also want to chat on ECF when I get a minute to, LOL. Oh yeah, try and hire a housemaid today, a little more expensive than a washer/dryer and the power to run them, plus today you better have disability insurance for them! Some people are perfectly happy "living off the grid", but they still, ultimately, use that grid in some way on a daily or at least occasional basis.

I agree with you, since I'm living that way. But there are people who choose not to for whatever reason. And if the power fails, I guess lots of us who depend on it will have to learn how. Still, there are ways, and life would go on. I doubt the power will ever totally fail. Maybe they'll have power outages planned for certain times or something, but too much in this world now depends on power to have developed countries let it fail totally.

 

[JoAnnW]

All you folks experiencing or expecting bad weather, this is for you: Singing In The Rain - Singing In The Rain (Gene Kelly) [HD Widescreen] - YouTube Maybe you'll get snow instead of rain, but the thought can be the same.

One day some years ago, I decided to bombproof Penny to umbrellas. I had one of those that pop open with a push of a button, and I took it to the barn. I put Penny in the riding ring and proceeded to open and close the umbrella, getting closer and closer to her. She seemed curious at first, then paid it no mind. Just to be silly, I started singing the above song and dancing around, twirling the umbrella. Penny looked on and said to herself, "You've got to be kidding!"

Meanwhile, a horse in a pasture quite a distance away, ran like fiends were after him. It was weird. I thought he'd settle down after a while, especially since he was in a distant pasture, but finally the barn owner came out and asked me to stop before the horse had a heart attack. Anyway, bombproofing Penny was sort of fun that day. The only thing she minded about the umbrella was if I put it up over her head, not touching, just as if I was protecting her from the rain. She said, "No way is that contraption getting over my head where I can't keep a proper eye on it." She has always been protective of her head for some reason. This is a horse that could easily become head shy if handled differently. As it is, she's leery of things like umbrellas over her head, and I doubt I'll ever totally break her of it. However, she doesn't mind wearing things on her head like her bridle, fly mask, the fly bonnet I use sometimes when I ride. I think it's if something tickles her ears -- maybe. It's hard to figure out what her objection is.

I would love to have seen that!

 

[awsum140]

Konstantine, you are very lucky to be able to connect to the Internet via a means that may be a little "suspect", LOL. Again, most people don't have that opportunity or the expertise to do that, and, that connection, or a "liberated" solar panel or inverter or battery, were all produced and paid for by someone, somewhere. The true cost doesn't change in terms of production and energy to produce which is what the big argument is all about over here. Unfortunately, people just don't realize that and, even worse, don't want to know the real facts, and jump on the "anti-carbon" band wagon in utter ignorance.

Right now there is a movement on the Harvard campus by the students to force Harvard to divest their investments in carbon based technology, like oil companies primarily. I'd like to see those students do without the fruits that those same companies produce, like the heat and power they all use to power up their iWhatevers and keep warm up in Boston, until they run out and hop in their BMWs to go downtown to party.

 

[Konstantine]

I totally agree with you. Anyway those countries have too many first world problems to deal with alternative energy.
Only when the Sh hits the fan they will start eating each other.
(watch solar flares for more details)

 

[Konstantine]

btw about internet and other stuff.

For now i use a wireless link to the office 2km away. Very redundant with UPS and all weather conditions it performs 100%.
The neighnours think they have secure networks(wep,WPA, WPA2) LOL, i use those as a backup only but never needed them yet.

On more difficult situations in case nothing works generally i have my VX-8R Radio to communicate and pre-defined frequencies to speak with people i want to. We have a schedule for example If it's monday we are listening on 146.125MHz if it's Friday on 435.650MHZ etc etc.
I am not a prepper or something but if the system fails everything is good. I can even get weather data directly from satellites (assuming they work) or rely on a barometer. For food we have access to animals, eggs and many plants and fruits available.
Solar panels for energy and generators.

 

[awsum140]

Konstantine, you're making me think about getting a ham license again. Do you work any HF?

 

[Konstantine]

Why not? If other technologies fail then direct communication is the way to go.

No HF because i have a VX-8R only. My friend has an ICOM 706 which is an all band.
http://kc9dnn.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ic706mkllg.jpg