Well thank you for your well thought out response to my - obviously unworthy? - questions
Christianity vs Catholicism
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Well thank you for your well thought out response to my - obviously unworthy? - questions
Bones quote: "Will you then admit that the Bible does NOT give any practical description of the true nature of existence beyond the Earthly existence which I choose to call THE ONENESS?"
I gave you references. You chose to either dismiss them, ignore them, or failed to understand them.
1 John 4:2-3 "By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."
I gave you references. You chose to either dismiss them, ignore them, or failed to understand them.
1 John 4:2-3 "By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."
I put a specific notation next to each one of your references - in red - I addressed each individually - It is you who are dismissing and ignoring and failing to understand - You are either totally ignoring my remarks about the true nature of the totality of existence or not understanding them -
I acknowledge that Jesus is from God - I acknowledge that EVERYTHING is from God -
But what I am getting at is some basic questions that the Bible does NOT address -
Where is God? - What is God? - Is there something beyond God?
TOTALITY - This is the point you don't seem to comprehend - God is either an entity separate from the totality - In which case he must exist within the totality - OR - God IS the TOTALITY - There are logically no other choices - If he is separate and within the Totality then the Totality must be greater than God - I do not believe anything is greater than God - Therefore God must BE the TOTALITY - Otherwise you limit God and by default the Totality would be something BIGGER than God that he resides within -
Your quote of 1 John 4 - I do not understand how you mean this - Are you using this to dispute my claim that the Bible does not address this issue - OR - Are you using it to call Buddha an anti-Christ? - If the former I have to say that it does not dispute in the least - If the latter then Buddha was before Christ so how could he be denying something that did not yet exist?
1 John 4:12-13
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit -
To me this seems to hint at the inseparable nature of totality - But it goes into no practical detail as to the nature of it - It is Earth-bound and Human based in its practicality and does not account for or expand on how this applies to the UNIVERSE as a whole - Eastern Philosophy does as it seeks to point out the importance of understanding the "spirit" by intimately knowing the shared part that resides within us - That does not make it more correct and it does not differ very much at all - It just goes further into the broader subject matter - A task you seem to have no desire to do - And that's cool - Just don't act like I am wrong because I choose to think in broader terms -
You also left out 1John4:1 which says:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
This is in total conradiction to 1 John 4:13
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit
If a spirit exists by virtue of God sharing his (as 1J4:13)-
There can be no other source for a Spirit to exist (as 1J4:1 suggests) - UNLESS - - God is separate -
Then you are back having to ackowledge sources of existence other than God in a Totality that exceeds God -
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Is it me or are all of your posts defensive? You keep on saying that I think you are wrong and I am right. You also seem offended when I post scripture. I am trying to have a discussion / debate with you, not an argument. You have a tendency to address me or perhaps lump me in together with other posters who might have hurt your ego or feelings.
I am trying to understand your philosophy. I studied Buddhism when I was in Japan many, many years ago. Not for me. But I'm trying to understand what you are implying by the ONENESS. You keep saying that Buddha was before Christ, but when I post scripture stating that Christ was and is ALWAYS, you dismiss it as circular argument. Well, what else can I tell you?
Yes-God is totality, and so is Christ. God and Christ are ONE.
You ask:
But what I am getting at is some basic questions that the Bible does NOT address -
Where is God? - Everywhere
What is God? - Creator of all
Is there something beyond God? No, He is the Alpha and Omega
These answers are found in scripture...
[/QUOTE]
Yea - I think it is you - lol - I'm not being defensive - I feel like I am making points that you are missing - I have not said anything about a Circular argument when you post scripture - If we are having a debate then - sure - I will defend my points - A debate is a form of argument - You accused me of ignoring the scripture you posted - This baffled and frustrated me - Seeing as how I notated each one individually - I do not understand how you can possibly call that ignoring? I have not faulted you for posting scripture - Perhaps you are lumping me with VP?
I am very comfortable with scripture - I find it contains some conflicts and has other issues - I am not offended by it as a rule - I just do not take it as the end all be all of the topic at hand -
Thank you for finally answering my question though - So do you now understand my point that THE ONENESS = GOD? - The only reason that I might seem defensive is because you keep attacking that point and I am defending it = My point was that the teachings of Buddha and Jesus do NOT differ on this definition - You chose to differ with that - Did you not?
And by that definition - You and I and The Devil and God are also ONE - There is no seperation - For any seperation defeats the whole Alpha Omega Reality - I suspect that at this point you will disagree? - The Eastern Philosopies would not - They describe this in much greater and broader detail -
Where the conflict comes in is in the fact that the Bible states this and then contradicts by passages that seem to make God separate - Or that point to other points of view as being outside of him - If he is ALL then this is not possible - If you can get all of your answers from one limited and faulty source then - GREAT!
- I'm happy for you - You must understand however that for most people this does not work - And it is not wrong to seek truths from other sources - You claim to not tell me I am wrong - Yet - You continue to assert the Christian Belief that ONLY THROUGH CHRIST can we reach God - - That I strongly disagree with - Something so all encompassing must have other paths that lead to understanding - That attitude automatically dams to hell all those who have never heard of Christ - And that is not indicative of a Loving God - It is a deep and profound contradiction -Yea - I think it is you - lol - I'm not being defensive - I feel like I am making points that you are missing - I have not said anything about a Circular argument when you post scripture - If we are having a debate then - sure - I will defend my points - A debate is a form of argument - You accused me of ignoring the scripture you posted - This baffled and frustrated me - Seeing as how I notated each one individually - I do not understand how you can possibly call that ignoring? I have not faulted you for posting scripture - Perhaps you are lumping me with VP?
I am very comfortable with scripture - I find it contains some conflicts and has other issues - I am not offended by it as a rule - I just do not take it as the end all be all of the topic at hand -
Thank you for finally answering my question though - So do you now understand my point that THE ONENESS = GOD? - The only reason that I might seem defensive is because you keep attacking that point and I am defending it = My point was that the teachings of Buddha and Jesus do NOT differ on this definition - You chose to differ with that - Did you not?
And by that definition - You and I and The Devil and God are also ONE - There is no seperation - For any seperation defeats the whole Alpha Omega Reality - I suspect that at this point you will disagree? - The Eastern Philosopies would not - They describe this in much greater and broader detail -
Where the conflict comes in is in the fact that the Bible states this and then contradicts by passages that seem to make God separate - Or that point to other points of view as being outside of him - If he is ALL then this is not possible - If you can get all of your answers from one limited and faulty source then - GREAT! - I'm happy for you - You must understand however that for most people this does not work - And it is not wrong to seek truths from other sources - You claim to not tell me I am wrong - Yet - You continue to assert the Christian Belief that ONLY THROUGH CHRIST can we reach God - - That I strongly disagree with - Something so all encompassing must have other paths that lead to understanding - That attitude automatically dams to hell all those who have never heard of Christ - And that is not indicative of a Loving God - It is a deep and profound contradiction -[/quote]
In reference to the ONENESS - you state, "You and I and The Devil and God are also ONE." I do not believe that. God and Christ are one, you and I and the devil are their creations.
In reference to knowing God you state, ONLY THROUGH CHRIST can we reach God - That I strongly disagree with. If you are referring to salvation, then yes, Christ is the only path to it. But, indeed there are probably many who never heard of Christ, and they will not be damned.
The bible states: "He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality."
God shows no partiality. If I say I believe in Christ but do not practice his teachings, I will be judged according to my works. Salvation is through Christ. Many can reject Him throughout all their lives, but who's to say at the moment of death, when your soul ascends, that you can't accept Him then? I believe there is no expiration. After all, scripture states, "The first shall be last and the last shall be first."
I also believe that there are many levels, and tiers to heaven. In essence, a place, an assignment for everyone. Christ states, some by tenfold, some by fiftyfold, some by hundredfold. Personally, such a sinner as myself would be content to reach just the footsteps of heaven, for I am indeed unworthy. But, that's not up to me....
I am very comfortable with scripture - I find it contains some conflicts and has other issues - I am not offended by it as a rule - I just do not take it as the end all be all of the topic at hand -
Thank you for finally answering my question though - So do you now understand my point that THE ONENESS = GOD? - The only reason that I might seem defensive is because you keep attacking that point and I am defending it = My point was that the teachings of Buddha and Jesus do NOT differ on this definition - You chose to differ with that - Did you not?
And by that definition - You and I and The Devil and God are also ONE - There is no seperation - For any seperation defeats the whole Alpha Omega Reality - I suspect that at this point you will disagree? - The Eastern Philosopies would not - They describe this in much greater and broader detail -
Where the conflict comes in is in the fact that the Bible states this and then contradicts by passages that seem to make God separate - Or that point to other points of view as being outside of him - If he is ALL then this is not possible - If you can get all of your answers from one limited and faulty source then - GREAT!
- I'm happy for you - You must understand however that for most people this does not work - And it is not wrong to seek truths from other sources - You claim to not tell me I am wrong - Yet - You continue to assert the Christian Belief that ONLY THROUGH CHRIST can we reach God - - That I strongly disagree with - Something so all encompassing must have other paths that lead to understanding - That attitude automatically dams to hell all those who have never heard of Christ - And that is not indicative of a Loving God - It is a deep and profound contradiction -[/quote]In reference to the ONENESS - you state, "You and I and The Devil and God are also ONE." I do not believe that. God and Christ are one, you and I and the devil are their creations.
In reference to knowing God you state, ONLY THROUGH CHRIST can we reach God - That I strongly disagree with. If you are referring to salvation, then yes, Christ is the only path to it. But, indeed there are probably many who never heard of Christ, and they will not be damned.
The bible states: "He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality."
God shows no partiality. If I say I believe in Christ but do not practice his teachings, I will be judged according to my works. Salvation is through Christ. Many can reject Him throughout all their lives, but who's to say at the moment of death, when your soul ascends, that you can't accept Him then? I believe there is no expiration. After all, scripture states, "The first shall be last and the last shall be first."
I also believe that there are many levels, and tiers to heaven. In essence, a place, an assignment for everyone. Christ states, some by tenfold, some by fiftyfold, some by hundredfold. Personally, such a sinner as myself would be content to reach just the footsteps of heaven, for I am indeed unworthy. But, that's not up to me....
I don't think it matters. God is bigger than any church denomination. The churches slice god up to fit their particular mindset. In reading the bible one finds that the bible slices god up as well. In one place god says go to war and kill in another it says it is against god's will for one to kill. At one time woman preached and it was condoned than they put certain books together and call it the bible and it says woman are not to preach. The bible will tell woman to not cut their hair do you really believe god cares about a woman's hair? I believe in God and my God is called love it has no gender it is not a he or she. Last time I checked god does not have genitalia.
There are to many ways to get caught up in this or that. It is simple for me. We were put on this earth for one reason to love "help" one another that is it. Not to convert not to judge not to do anything other than love and help one another.
We are all God's children. Some of us label ourselves and others but no matter what labels we apply that does not take God's power away from God to make us not his children. Taliban, Catholic, Muslim, Extremist, Republican, Democrat, Racist, Agnostic, Atheist, Jew, et.. .. . et. . . and on and on and on. They, we are all still God's kids.
No one has a monopoly on God, not one church, not one person, no one.
By the way Christianity is the belief in Christ so I guess the whole Christianity versus Catholicism is kind of a moot point as the Catholics are indeed Christians.
So are Baptists, Protestants, Lutherans, and on and on and on. We just have a habit as Christians or Muslims or whatever to slice and dice till we got a new church that fits what our small brains can accept as God. Plus it allows the authorities that created some of these denominations to control the sheep better. Ka Ching and "oh your not worthy so polish my shoes." "What?!! it costs how much to have that sin removed?" "How can you a man forgive me of my trespasses your not God?"
A better thread might be Man vs. God or God vs. Man
Just do the next right thing if you can figure out what that is and you will be ok.
Does God cast one into hell for not knowing who Christ is? I don't think so.
Oh an lets not forget about all those other books also penned that were "inspired by God" that were not allowed into the bible as we know it today. How about the Gospel of Mary. Or the Gospel of Judas.
Ah yes we forgot about Saint Judas.
There is so much to this that it boggles my tiny mind.
Well of course that is all just my humble opinion. No one really knows. Do they? . . . .. or do they? . . .
There are to many ways to get caught up in this or that. It is simple for me. We were put on this earth for one reason to love "help" one another that is it. Not to convert not to judge not to do anything other than love and help one another.
We are all God's children. Some of us label ourselves and others but no matter what labels we apply that does not take God's power away from God to make us not his children. Taliban, Catholic, Muslim, Extremist, Republican, Democrat, Racist, Agnostic, Atheist, Jew, et.. .. . et. . . and on and on and on. They, we are all still God's kids.
No one has a monopoly on God, not one church, not one person, no one.
By the way Christianity is the belief in Christ so I guess the whole Christianity versus Catholicism is kind of a moot point as the Catholics are indeed Christians.
So are Baptists, Protestants, Lutherans, and on and on and on. We just have a habit as Christians or Muslims or whatever to slice and dice till we got a new church that fits what our small brains can accept as God. Plus it allows the authorities that created some of these denominations to control the sheep better. Ka Ching and "oh your not worthy so polish my shoes." "What?!! it costs how much to have that sin removed?" "How can you a man forgive me of my trespasses your not God?"
A better thread might be Man vs. God or God vs. Man
Just do the next right thing if you can figure out what that is and you will be ok.
Does God cast one into hell for not knowing who Christ is? I don't think so.
Oh an lets not forget about all those other books also penned that were "inspired by God" that were not allowed into the bible as we know it today. How about the Gospel of Mary. Or the Gospel of Judas.
Ah yes we forgot about Saint Judas.
There is so much to this that it boggles my tiny mind.
Well of course that is all just my humble opinion. No one really knows. Do they? . . . .. or do they? . . .
platinum321 quote: "It is simple for me. We were put on this earth for one reason to love "help" one another that is it. Not to convert not to judge not to do anything other than love and help one another."
I agree. I might add to love God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. And as you say, to love your neighbor as yourself.
I agree. I might add to love God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. And as you say, to love your neighbor as yourself.
Actually, Catholicism IS Christianity. The Son of the Creator did not start Christianity and churches - it was man.
If one believe the Old Testament, the part where the "church" and Christianity cames forth, we can see it is against all the wishes of the Creator.
It came to the question of translations and who decide what must be in the Bible and what not: Catholic - Beginning of the end with the 1611 translation - just after the Catholics decided the last book in the Bible must be changed with the second last book and this book (Henoch) must be left out completely.
As was the case of the more than 17 other books. Because they (the Catholics) was not happy with the Apocrypha - scripts they decide was/is not part of the Bible.
BUT, a Book they decide is good to have in the Bible, was of a person who does not believe in the deities/gods/God of Israel - Esther. An Egiptian queen - and not once will you find a linkage to the Creator.
Who was the man started the church? An Israelite who's mother was a Jew, a Jawanite according to the Bible - a Greek.
It let one wonders where everything will end. Maybe it all start with the use of the last letter of the alphabeth: the J (about 400 years ago)
CG
Esther was a Jew. Fostered by Mordechai while in captivity. She certainly believed in the God of Israel...She is the basis for the Jewish celebration of Purim.
In reference to the ONENESS - you state, "You and I and The Devil and God are also ONE." I do not believe that. God and Christ are one, you and I and the devil are their creations.
- Ok - So where do you and I and the Devil reside? - Somewhere outside of God? - How can this be possible? That would mean that there is a reality that EXCEEDS God - A space within which God and You and I and the Devil reside - The very existence of a reality that exceeds God would limit God - If God is everywhere - That is a contradiction in logic - As was just quoted - "we abide in Him, and He in us" - That quote clearly points to a Unity - Yet you deny that unity - I believe with that quote as my witness that separation is not possible unless you limit God - I refuse to limit God -
In reference to knowing God you state, ONLY THROUGH CHRIST can we reach God - That I strongly disagree with. If you are referring to salvation, then yes, Christ is the only path to it. But, indeed there are probably many who never heard of Christ, and they will not be damned. -
Great! - I am very glad you feel that way -
The bible states: "He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality."
God shows no partiality. If I say I believe in Christ but do not practice his teachings, I will be judged according to my works. Salvation is through Christ. Many can reject Him throughout all their lives, but who's to say at the moment of death, when your soul ascends, that you can't accept Him then? I believe there is no expiration. After all, scripture states, "The first shall be last and the last shall be first."
So - Are you saying that if you hear about Christ but do not believe it - Then you will be lost? I tend to think that if God is loving and forgiving that he will forgive doubt as well - If he can forgive Sin - I do not see doubt to be a sin - That is just human nature - I can not believe God would judge against a human being human -
I also believe that there are many levels, and tiers to heaven. In essence, a place, an assignment for everyone. Christ states, some by tenfold, some by fiftyfold, some by hundredfold. Personally, such a sinner as myself would be content to reach just the footsteps of heaven, for I am indeed unworthy. But, that's not up to me....
I also believe that our rewards are based on our actions - I see it happening on a daily or moment to moment basis though - What I mean by that is I see my rewards coming through the course of my life and not awaiting an assessment at death - I experience this all the time - When I do something selfless and loving for a fellow man I see a reward coming in my own life that I can directly attribute to that - Now - I do think it is wrong to actively try to "work that system" - This mindset would nullify the good in the act as it would not be done with a pure heart - I do feel though that Heaven and Hell are states of mind - Not actual places - I have experienced both here on Earth - There does seem to be a great deal of disagreement on what constitutes an act worthy of hell - In that there are degrees - Lying for example does not seem to warrant the same degree of punishment as mass murder - Though some choose to equate the 2 with the "A Sin is a Sin" mindset - If there are levels of reward - There must also be levels of punishment -
I also find it very difficult to believe that there would come a time when God would not accept repentance - I do not see death as and end - I see it as a continuation - Life after Death - I believe is just that - Not a place where all your deeds are tallied up and then you sit for eternity with your reward or your punishment - That would not be life - That would truly be death - Life is about growing and to no longer be given an opportunity for further growth seems rather pointless - We get 80 years or so to get it right and then must live for ETERNITY with the results of that? - That is just not something I can accept - It seems more pointless than anything I could imagine - I'd prefer a world without an afterlife if the life after this is an eternity of stagnation - This is what I talk of when I say that the Bible gives no practical information about the Beyond - In my mind it is the type of thing you would say to a child in order to get it to behave properly - "If you are good you will get cake - If you are bad you will get a spanking" - While this is understandable in order to get the behavior you want during life - I want more than cake from my afterlife - The eastern Philosophies give a picture of continued LIFE - The Bible does not choose to address it - It chooses to focus on Earthly behavior and dangles the "cake and spanking" concept to enforce or motivate - And that was my initial point -
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We should be accountable for our actions and I don't disagree that rewards should not come in our lifetime. However, our rewards in heaven will be far greater than our rewards on earth. Of course sincerity is the key, and pretending to be a good person only deceives the person that's pretending.
You state, "We get 80 years or so to get it right and then must live for ETERNITY with the results of that? - That is just not something I can accept."That might not necessarily be true. I do not know your position on reincarnation, or karma, or predestination, but there is evidence in scripture that some have returned a second time in the flesh, ie: Elijah.
You also state, "If there are levels of reward - There must also be levels of punishment. " Well, I would agree with you on that. On an abstract level, Dante's Divine Comedy fully details this. In the scriptures, the spiritual world is divided by many planes. (Maybe that's why some people believe in ghosts)
Getting back to the Christ figure and salvation through Christ. I'm not orthodox to the point that Christ cannot be or appear to be another deity, or fall under another name to another people. The gospels teach love and they teach forgiveness, and they teach salvation. So do many other faiths. Perhaps there is a common denominator to all the world's religions?
Cool - And I am very glad to find common ground - This is what I believe is vital in today's world - If one takes a serious look at different faiths one finds that the core is very similar - They really do all teach the same thing - The arguments and apparent differences seldom seem to be more than cultural - This is why I may seem a little defensive when trying to make these points in a thread called Christianity VS. Catholicism - When trying to resolve differences it seems overwhelmingly discouraging to find two factions of the same faith seeking to point out minuscule and insignificant differences -
I am a big believer in reincarnation - Although I do not see it as necessarily having to be a direct rebirth - It certainly can be and I do believe that the current Dalia Lama is on his 14th trip - He has already stated that his next life he will be a westerner so that the example can be more apparent - But - I think it can also be more basic - Such as a returning of the energy to the whole(God) to do with as he sees fit - This is where the surrender of self comes in - If you retain your sense of self then you will most likely come back in a similar form - If you surrender that self then you could come back as anything God chooses - Such as a Tree or even a totally different life form on another planet far away from here - This is how I see "submiting to the will of God" in practical and real terms of the higher reality -
I have heard it postulated by some that Jesus may have been a reincarnation of Buddha - I have said before that it may be that there never was an actual man called Jesus that he is only a character in a parable to explain these truths - I personally do think it is very probable that there was a man called Jesus - I only posed that to make the point that I simply do not think it matters if he was flesh or not - For me it does not change the truth of the message one way or another - Faced with a Universe as vast and mind boggling as we seem to have before us - This seems a trivial matter that is of no consequence to the true nature of things -
A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive. (Albert Einstein, 1954)
Just one question Bones. Why do you insist on throwing the Creator in with the created and not apart although interactive with the system? If a woman gives birth to a child she is not bound by what that child may do and likewise the child is not usually limited by the mother as the child grows and matures.
"The very existence of a reality that exceeds God would limit God - If God is everywhere - That is a contradiction in logic - As was just quoted - "we abide in Him, and He in us" - That quote clearly points to a Unity - Yet you deny that unity - I believe with that quote as my witness that separation is not possible unless you limit God - I refuse to limit God - " quote
I would propose that there is no reality that exceeds God but, yes there is a reality that exceeds man lest we be too presumptious. The very fabric of time would have been the creation of God and if we go back to the Garden of Eden they (man) were cast out lest they eat of the tree of life. 1 Jn 3:24 "All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us." has a qualifier attached if this is the quote that is being referenced. Really a very important qualifier referring to Jesus and those who keep His commandments that will be imbued with the Holy Spirit.
"The very existence of a reality that exceeds God would limit God - If God is everywhere - That is a contradiction in logic - As was just quoted - "we abide in Him, and He in us" - That quote clearly points to a Unity - Yet you deny that unity - I believe with that quote as my witness that separation is not possible unless you limit God - I refuse to limit God - " quote
I would propose that there is no reality that exceeds God but, yes there is a reality that exceeds man lest we be too presumptious. The very fabric of time would have been the creation of God and if we go back to the Garden of Eden they (man) were cast out lest they eat of the tree of life. 1 Jn 3:24 "All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us." has a qualifier attached if this is the quote that is being referenced. Really a very important qualifier referring to Jesus and those who keep His commandments that will be imbued with the Holy Spirit.
Hey Gashin, congrats. I've always thought it was more about the relationship than any ritual.
"If a woman gives birth to a child she is not bound by what that child may do and likewise the child is not usually limited by the mother as the child grows and matures."
I never said that God is bound by the actions of his creation - But - If the child is not limited by the mother it will surely be a very spoiled child - No? Placing limits on the child as it grows is the very definition of PARENTING - And in fact the child is a rather limiting factor on the mother who's actions are governed by the responsibility until the child moves out and stands on its own -
To be honest though - That is a very poor analogy for what I am talking about - Unless you see God as a mother sea turtle who lays eggs and then never looks back - Yes the reality exceeds man as man is within it - The SUM TOTAL of all is God - We reside within that sum total - Man exists IN and THROUGH God - What we normally call creation would be all manner of matter and other stuff - You view God as separate from his creation - and that is fine if you choose to view it that way - BUT - If we and creation reside within and through God - We are not seperate - We are WITHIN HIM -
Imagine all of everything in existence(creation) as being inside a room(god) - I see God as the Room and Everything is inside that room - The way you view it would mean that God is IN a room along with all the stuff - Stuff in one corner and God in the other - In that case - What is the room? - It would have to be something bigger than God in order for God and all the stuff to reside as separate within it - No?
The only logical solution is if God IS the Room - He is the infinite container in which EVERYTHING resides - There can be so separation - Otherwise - Something needs to be bigger than him in order to contain him and all the stuff - This is not to say that man is equal to God - Or that man is everywhere - The only way I can see it possible to be everywhere is if you are everything - All the stuff and the room as well -
"All who keep his commandments abide in him" While it may be possible to not be in God's good graces it does not seem posible to not be WITHIN the container that is HIM - Where else would those who do not keep his commandments reside? - Someplace outside of God? - Once again - You would need a container BIGGER than God to make this possible - I simply can't hang with that - My defentition of God has no limits - And He can not be contained - My God IS ALL! A God who is separate from ANYTHING is by definition limited - Because this automatically requres a larger reality IN which this can occur -
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Labeling someone as a hater is what you do when you have no argument to the contrary. I've yet to find anything he said that can be construed as "hateful". He's basing his analysis on what is actually in the Bible and not on things that the Romans just made up.
If I hear anyone call anyone a "hater" again for believing something, I'm going to scream. Name calling and labeling is something that is done to seemingly discredit someone's argument when the person doing the name calling and labeling has nothing to support their own side of the argument.
Here's an example:
The media and the Bush administration called anyone who did not support the war in Iraq unpatriotic and guilty of not supporting the troops. How many times have people been asked that since Bush was elected (*cough*) in 2000 and (*cough*) 2004? Just because you do not support the war does not mean that you don't support the troops and just because you don't agree with the government's actions doesn't mean that you're unpatriotic. Labeling is a ploy to get people to back away from their beliefs in order to push your own upon them while you hope they'll either stop telling other people what they believe or that you will create enough social proof to discredit that person's argument without any proof of your own.
Sorry to bust your bubble, but the Bible says the earth is round in the book of Isaiah.
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. -- Isaiah 40:22
And in the book of Proverbs:
When he set up the heavens, I was there. When he traced the horizon on the surface of the ocean... -- Proverbs 8:27
I understand where you're coming from but Buddha's teachings do idealize passiveness to personal and social suffering - this is where Buddhism contrasts with Christianity. Buddha was compassionate on earth - but his ideal would be for a totally emotion-less world without conceputal thinking. For people to even contemplate Buddha's ideas, they would first have to build up their intelligence which requires the fulfillment of physical needs - how can someone understand his teachings if they lack the physical (neurological development) and economic opportunities to do so? This is where Buddhism fails - it ignores the humanity of people with the assumption that everyone is already capable of achieving enlightenment. Buddhism ignores the social context of humanity and teaches an elitist philosophy that only those people with proper cultural and social upbringing can practice (outside of the pre-dominantly Buddhist and Hindu countries, where else can one dedicate himself to Buddhism starting from nothing?). How can you can combine Buddhism, which seeks escape from this world into Nirvana, with Christianity, which teaches to deal with the problems on this world now in order to establish the Kingdom of God on earth? How can you surrender your physical ego on this earth while continuing to love for others? They cannot be combined (even purely theoretically) as you can achieve neither simultaneously and are in fact contradictory. How can you become spiritually one with creation through ignoring it and attempting to achieve a consciousness of reality above others?
Buddhism does in fact teach that happiness is only achievable through the suffering of others. People attach to each other for happiness and when these relationships are broken, one or both parties suffer. People love one another to achieve a personal happiness, while accepting the pains inflicted for the greater benefit of pleasure they feel. Every action we do for our ego does harm others no matter how little it may seem to be. Even self-less actions are sources of personal suffering according to Buddhism - you are not happy unless you self-lessly serve others and they will suffer when you are no longer there performing those self-less acts.What you believe in and practice is not Buddhism - it is a maintainence of your ego and attachment to others. But then I digress - I never said that Buddhism teaches personal happiness at the expense of others. This is just want I realized viewing my ego and relationships in general from a concept-less state I was returning to my ego. I was able to come to the realization that without a God, we live merely to achieve happiness and that every action and emotion we feel has the ultimate goal of achieving personal pleasure at the expense of others. Even self-less actions seemed selfish in this state, because I realized that people wanted to make others happy only because the suffering of others would ruin their happiness. I didn't find Jesus in this experience - I found an ordering, absolute God that directs us to true happiness and sets on the right path. In fact, I did not even experience a personal love but rather an intellectual epiphany on the existence of God and his role in setting order to the universe.It was a purely spiritual experience and it was only after that I really found the answers I was looking for in the Bible.
This might sound very ego-centric, but I do believe that I was enlightened in the same manner as Buddha. But what I found was not the peace of emptiness - having no ego, no concepts, no memories, no emotions was a mental state of escape. It was a purely selfish experience in which I could have easily died and left all behind me but it was not a practical solution to life's problems. How can escaping into emptiness be an answer to anyone's problems? Even on a spiritual level - how is becoming one with the universe more than a selfish pursuit? It did however allow me to gain revelations about human motivation and God as I slowly returned to my ego and memories. I also came to the realization that Buddha did not really teach anything about the after-life but merely how to escape this life and that his ideal of escape from the reality of the subject-object dichotomy was false.
Buddhism does in fact teach that happiness is only achievable through the suffering of others. People attach to each other for happiness and when these relationships are broken, one or both parties suffer. People love one another to achieve a personal happiness, while accepting the pains inflicted for the greater benefit of pleasure they feel. Every action we do for our ego does harm others no matter how little it may seem to be. Even self-less actions are sources of personal suffering according to Buddhism - you are not happy unless you self-lessly serve others and they will suffer when you are no longer there performing those self-less acts.What you believe in and practice is not Buddhism - it is a maintainence of your ego and attachment to others. But then I digress - I never said that Buddhism teaches personal happiness at the expense of others. This is just want I realized viewing my ego and relationships in general from a concept-less state I was returning to my ego. I was able to come to the realization that without a God, we live merely to achieve happiness and that every action and emotion we feel has the ultimate goal of achieving personal pleasure at the expense of others. Even self-less actions seemed selfish in this state, because I realized that people wanted to make others happy only because the suffering of others would ruin their happiness. I didn't find Jesus in this experience - I found an ordering, absolute God that directs us to true happiness and sets on the right path. In fact, I did not even experience a personal love but rather an intellectual epiphany on the existence of God and his role in setting order to the universe.It was a purely spiritual experience and it was only after that I really found the answers I was looking for in the Bible.
This might sound very ego-centric, but I do believe that I was enlightened in the same manner as Buddha. But what I found was not the peace of emptiness - having no ego, no concepts, no memories, no emotions was a mental state of escape. It was a purely selfish experience in which I could have easily died and left all behind me but it was not a practical solution to life's problems. How can escaping into emptiness be an answer to anyone's problems? Even on a spiritual level - how is becoming one with the universe more than a selfish pursuit? It did however allow me to gain revelations about human motivation and God as I slowly returned to my ego and memories. I also came to the realization that Buddha did not really teach anything about the after-life but merely how to escape this life and that his ideal of escape from the reality of the subject-object dichotomy was false.
Well - I had said to you before - If forced to choose a label for myself I would have to say Buddhist although that is not quite right - I take a lot from Eastern Philosophy - Though I did grow up officially as Catholic - I have read the Bible a lot - So what I actually have in my heart is a mix of the two - I think the strict and emotionless way of Buddha is about how to achieve a true spiritual oneness and exist on another level - Merged with the overall energy purely and totally abandoning a sense of self and all connections to the Earthly world - What you say about "Tibetan monks are openly fighting with the Chinese authority for their material identity as a separate people in defiance of Buddha's own words" Speaks to this as well - If you maintain your connection to the Earthly world - Then you must maintain a sense of self and in interactions with other creatures of the Earth Compassion and Love are the primary positive ways of relating with each other - The ideas are separate - One deals with Earth and the other with beyond -
Isa. 55:8-9 For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts" - Good one Wild - Yes - This is exactly what I am talking about here -
Reports of Buddha's life on Earth do not point to an emotionless blob - Rather to a loving and compassionate man in his interactions with others -The total surrender of self is not for this world - It is for the next - As I said earlier - If you want to drift away and fade into the "matrix" then you must let go of everything - If you want to stay - Then you must have Love and Compassion as your core - Jesus teaches primarily how to deal with our fellow men in an earthly world and speaks about the world beyond this one only in vague and lofty terms such as great rewards and being with God - He does not tell us how it will feel or what our emotions will be when we are with God - Not in any real or practical way at least - His practical lessons are primarily Earthly and ones of interaction with others
The part I find disturbing is your idea of others having to suffer so that you can feel happiness as being part of the Buddhist Teaching - I get happiness from bringing it to others - I find that when I chase things that I desire because I think they will bring me happiness they only bring sorrow - The times in my life when I am the most happy are when I am selfless for the benefit of others - Or as Lennon says - "In the end the love you take is equal to the love you make" -
That feeling of selfishness you spoke of is not a part of Buddha's teachings for either world - That is a human failing that we all experience and must learn to overcome - So perhaps this explains that feeling as you came back to your ego - You felt the human failing that you had separated from - Perhaps feeling it more strongly in close contrast to not feeling anything at all - You then found the message of how to interact with love (moral framework) through Jesus' words because they are more clearly spelled out - You felt upset and bad about your human failing so you reached out for a rope to pull you up - Naturally you took the most familiar - Having just experienced a perceived inadequacy with the mediative process - Perhaps this is also why you percieve an opposition between the two where I do not -
I am very attached to this world and the people in my life - So I have never let myself go quite that far - I have felt it - glimpsed it - but I always pull back on my Earthly Life Line that connects me to those I love - This used to bother me - felt it was holding me back from enlightenment - I had thoughts of leaving all of my loved ones so I could pursue it - I asked my teacher about this and he just laughed at me and said "Good - That means you are human and a loyal friend - When you are ready and have no connections to this world - Then nothing will hold you and you will progress"
how can someone understand his teachings if they lack the physical (neurological development) and economic opportunities to do so? This is where Buddhism fails - it ignores the humanity of people with the assumption that everyone is already capable of achieving enlightenment.
There you are again viewing it as a contest - Buddhism does not FAIL unless you are expecting it to give you something - The goal is not to give you something - It is a philosophy of how the energy of the Universe plays out - It is what it is and just because it is not what YOU want it to be does not mean it fails - It only fails YOUR criteria for YOUR idea of what it should be or should do - It does NOT ignore humanity - You are simply very wrong in your assessment of what it is or what it should be - Again - I am not saying that the Bible (properly interpreted) is wrong - I am saying that it is not the Alpha and Omega of all philosophy and understanding - And that it does not even approach the concept of what the nature of the Universe is - It just does not - No philosophy is for everyone - There is no one size fits all - Buddhism in no way suggests that everyone can actually reach full potential in the current lifetime - Only that all have the potential within - You are right - Not everyone will get or take the opportunity - You are confusing Earthly behavioral teachings and teachings about the nature of the universe - 2 entirely different things - The Bible tells us that we are not even worthy of making the attempt - That we are deeply flawed from birth and only by saying we are sorry can we be given a chance to live up to our potential which is to sit around telling God how great he is for eternity -That is a SELFISH God - Break the self esteem of your children and then and demand tribute - The God of the Bible is the God of Selfishness -
Buddhism does in fact teach that happiness is only achievable through the suffering of others. - ABSOLUTE BS!
What you believe in and practice is not Buddhism - it is a maintainence of your ego and attachment to others. But then I digress - I never said that Buddhism teaches personal happiness at the expense of others.
Dude - You totally just said exactly that - Are you not reading what you write? "Buddhism does in fact teach that happiness is only achievable through the suffering of others." - And I have said repeatedly that I AM NOT A BUDDHIST - Not once did I claim to be - What I have said is that if FORCED to choose a label - That comes closest to my philosophy - but not really me - the Eastern explanations of what the Universe actually is are in accordance with my own - I did not form my beliefs about that based on Buddha's teachings - Nor was my aforementioned Master a Buddhist - I never said he was - I find it the most similar well known philosophy to my own that gives a base point to express what I believe and saves me a lot of typing when discussing it - Usually
This is just want I realized viewing my ego and relationships in general from a concept-less state I was returning to my ego.
This is what you DECIDED in your intellectual debate with yourself -
I was able to come to the realization that without a God, we live merely to achieve happiness and that every action and emotion we feel has the ultimate goal of achieving personal pleasure at the expense of others.
You seem to be a spiritual vampire - This idea of happiness at the expense of others is very twisted and seems to be at the core of you - I fail to see how a God changes that if this is how you feel-
This might sound very ego-centric, but I do believe that I was enlightened in the same manner as Buddha.
It sounds ridiculously ego-centric and NO you did NOT - That you would even say that proves it false -
It was a purely selfish experience in which I could have easily died and left all behind me but it was not a practical solution to life's problems. How can escaping into emptiness be an answer to anyone's problems?
You are once again making the assumption that any philosophy or religion exists to be a solution to your problems - It is not about "escaping" into nothingness - It is about realizing that nothingness is all that there is - Everything else is an illusion - Your problems are an illusion - A function of your own perception - The answers to the problems come from within - You apparently decide that only selfishness resides within and you need some outside force to change that - This whole idea of selfishness you keep coming back to is your own contrivance - Your personal illusion - It is your problem to deal with - God can't help you with that - If you think he can - You are wrong - It is a changing of your heart that makes you not selfish - YOU do that by exercising your own free will to change your illusion - not God -
how is becoming one with the universe more than a selfish pursuit? It did however allow me to gain revelations about human motivation and God as I slowly returned to my ego and memories.
Once again it is not about "becoming" one with the universe - It is about RECOGNIZING that you already are - and again - You did not "gain revelations" - You DECIDED things and made them to fit with your notions - This was not a spiritual realization you came to it was an intellectualized conclusion - I understand that you feel the need to have a God - That's fine - But do not base that need on your misunderstanding of the concept of a Universe without one -
I also came to the realization that Buddha did not really teach anything about the after-life but merely how to escape this life and that his ideal of escape from the reality of the subject-object dichotomy was false.
You are right on that - He did not teach about the afterlife - This is the point you are missing by a mile - He taught that there is no such thing - There is only LIFE - One continuous and timeless experience - Death is an illusion - Unity is the reality - Not the goal - It is bout how we choose to view it - And your choice is very negative - I have no great personal need to defend Buddha - But I find your take on it so incredibly misguided that I admit - you do upset me - You have judged something that you clearly do not understand at all - And I have no desire to explain it to you any further - Except to say that you are very very wrong - Now you are going so far as to say that you have attained enlightenment and then chose to reject it - Give me a break -
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