Classified Suggestions & Questions

[KickServe]

can we take a vote/ poll on the price scalping epedemic? it's not going to go away by waiting for everyone to stop participating in the behavior. why is scalping not considered illegal? several forums have adopted policies that make it the sellers responsibility to list the manufacturer's retail price. thanks

I agree with this. Allowing someone to sell something marked up to be over twice it's retail price on an item that's still in production is helping only the scalpers. I understand free market and all, but there's Craigslist for that.

Why allow something that does not help the community at all. If someone decided to pay 600$ for a 200$ item some place, the forum need not enable them to sell it for 700$ the next day. How does that help anyone other than the one person desperate enough to pay that price in the first place.

My suggestion is to allow something like a 20% max markup on still in production items. If it is a limited edition or not in production item, sure let them sell it for whatever the seller think is worth/buyer wants to pay.

 

[cags]

I think people should be able to charge what they want, but I wish, really wish, that I could make a negative comment on prices! people can say "great price" (even if it's not!) but I can't say, "oh my, you really want what it would cost new?"

but, I am capable of following rules, so I am just whining

 

[pumasforpets]

My question regarding the scalping issue is:

If it is a guttable offense to manufacture something and offer it for sale on ECF at a profit without registering as a supplier...then why is it perfectly acceptable to buy something that has already been manufactured and sell it at a profit on ECF without registering as a supplier?

If you buy up rare PVs and sell them at a profit, you are running a business. Whether you've declared the profit on your taxes and registered with your local government as a business entity is another story entirely. Does ECF condone and accept that they facilitate such behavior?

 

[wozntme]

Something definitely has to be done about the scalpers. Sellers should be able to make a modest profit, but to sell a $240 for $525 is ridiculous. It's beyond ridiculous. The classifieds should be for FAIR and HONEST people, not scalpers.
Could you pretty please make the posted pics bigger. I would like to see a big picture of the item instead of what is currently available.

 

[Vchick]

can we take a vote/ poll on the price scalping epedemic? it's not going to go away by waiting for everyone to stop participating in the behavior. why is scalping not considered illegal? several forums have adopted policies that make it the sellers responsibility to list the manufacturer's retail price. thanks

I couldn't find specific posts on this but knew the forums feeling was do your homework and buyer beware, which is further explained here, specifically from OS and Roly;
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...require-sellers-post-what-they-paid-item.html

I'd like to know is why we're allowing "feelers" in the classies?

There have been quite a few as of late and why are they not listing as it a fs/ft? If listed ft and the trade is not agreed by the op they have the right to refuse and if the op makes a trade during this "feeler" is the forum viewing this as a classified transaction ?

Jmtc, but imho this is fishing for who will pay a premium for an item.

I would still like to know about this, please & thanks!

 

[j0ker]

can we take a vote/ poll on the price scalping epedemic? it's not going to go away by waiting for everyone to stop participating in the behavior. why is scalping not considered illegal? several forums have adopted policies that make it the sellers responsibility to list the manufacturer's retail price. thanks

This has been shot down every time it's been discussed. Who will determine the value of an item? ECF does not have the manpower to evaluate every single ad posted to determine reasonable pricing. Right now the buyer is the appraiser. If you don't like the price, ignore the post.

I'd like to know is why we're allowing "feelers" in the classies?

There have been quite a few as of late and why are they not listing as it a fs/ft? If listed ft and the trade is not agreed by the op they have the right to refuse and if the op makes a trade during this "feeler" is the forum viewing this as a classified transaction ?

Jmtc, but imho this is fishing for who will pay a premium for an item.

How many of these feelers have you reported? I need an example before I can comment on this because I'm not sure what you are referring to...

I agree with this. Allowing someone to sell something marked up to be over twice it's retail price on an item that's still in production is helping only the scalpers. I understand free market and all, but there's Craigslist for that.

Why allow something that does not help the community at all. If someone decided to pay 600$ for a 200$ item some place, the forum need not enable them to sell it for 700$ the next day. How does that help anyone other than the one person desperate enough to pay that price in the first place.

My suggestion is to allow something like a 20% max markup on still in production items. If it is a limited edition or not in production item, sure let them sell it for whatever the seller think is worth/buyer wants to pay.

See answer above...Who is going to evaluate the pricing of items?

I think people should be able to charge what they want, but I wish, really wish, that I could make a negative comment on prices! people can say "great price" (even if it's not!) but I can't say, "oh my, you really want what it would cost new?"

but, I am capable of following rules, so I am just whining

Negative comments only cause more turmoil and members end up getting kicked from the Classified section. We've seen it numerous times in the past, someone post the negative comment, the OP retaliates, then both end up with infractions. It's a domino effect and usually drags others into the mix. So no negative comments is the best option. Just ignore those who post inflated prices on their wares they have for sale.

My question regarding the scalping issue is:

If it is a guttable offense to manufacture something and offer it for sale on ECF at a profit without registering as a supplier...then why is it perfectly acceptable to buy something that has already been manufactured and sell it at a profit on ECF without registering as a supplier?

If you buy up rare PVs and sell them at a profit, you are running a business. Whether you've declared the profit on your taxes and registered with your local government as a business entity is another story entirely. Does ECF condone and accept that they facilitate such behavior?

It's not actually an offense to build AND sell, it's a offense to build TO sell. Members build homemade devices, this is a fact but when they build to only sell and not use, they should be reported. We've explained that members may build devices then sell them after use but are limited to 1 every 90 days. If you know someone is doing it more frequently, report them and we'll investigate their history.

The details involved with researching when a person buys, how much, etc, is not something we are capable of doing. If someone is doing it frequently, reporting this makes it possible for us to keep record and act on it should it be or become a habit.

Something definitely has to be done about the scalpers. Sellers should be able to make a modest profit, but to sell a $240 for $525 is ridiculous. It's beyond ridiculous. The classifieds should be for FAIR and HONEST people, not scalpers.
Could you pretty please make the posted pics bigger. I would like to see a big picture of the item instead of what is currently available.

If the picture is too small it's because the member has chosen to attach the item through forum software or they made the image small. If they attach it through software it's reduced due to the forum. There are other options for hosting pictures that are much better than attaching to the post. You can also contact the member through PM and ask them to email you a larger picture. Personally, I use Tinypic.com to host my pictures and I would recommend all members find a free image hosting service to link their pictures. It would definitely improve your selling.

 

[Vchick]

How many of these feelers have you reported? I need an example before I can comment on this because I'm not sure what you are referring to...

PM sent & thanks!

 

[pumasforpets]

It's not actually an offense to build AND sell, it's a offense to build TO sell. Members build homemade devices, this is a fact but when they build to only sell and not use, they should be reported. We've explained that members may build devices then sell them after use but are limited to 1 every 90 days. If you know someone is doing it more frequently, report them and we'll investigate their history.

The details involved with researching when a person buys, how much, etc, is not something we are capable of doing. If someone is doing it frequently, reporting this makes it possible for us to keep record and act on it should it be or become a habit.

Is building TO sell different from buying TO sell in ECF's judgment? There are certain people who will buy hard to get PVs with the sole purpose of selling them at a profit in the ECF classifieds. Is this acceptable?

I agree it is a tricky subject. But look at it from the manufacturer's point of view. You build a PV, register as a supplier, pay your dues...and then watch someone else make more profit on your product than you do using the same site you do, but without doing the same work you do.

I think the end result of this may indeed be the retail price of certain coveted PVs going up. And why not? If people in the classifieds can make $250 profit per sale on a used PV, why shouldn't the manufacturer be making his share on the new ones?

The ECF community tends to be fairly tight knit and all about helping one another out. Profiteering drives a wedge in the middle of the good that ECF can do because it's all about taking advantage of your fellow vaper for personal gain.

 

[disarstar]

the discussion about scalpers is in every forum the same. in german forums they made it that it's not possible to sell over the original price. The old ukv did the same. items went to the trade section and the main change was that the transarency was lost but the scalpers doing it the same way over PM. I'm not long in this forum, in the last days i sold some items with a little profit on it and i say little because i paid at the customs for it extra. But seeking not to make profit and the law in germany is straight about that. If you sell sometimes a thing on ebay with profit, you are not a vendor. If you do this every week, if you buy cheap to sell higher you doing a business. Thats the diffrence. The other kind of people are collectors, Who in Hell needs 10 provaris or all Goldengreek things every made in double or tripple.
Prices the market pays are prices the people made. Back to me again. For me the mainreason to name a higher price than the original is that the real private vendor don't try to buy. If noone respondes i go lower. If i start with 60$ - 20 people sends me a PM, the one who buys from me sells it after delivery for 160$. I will never be the cheap way for anyone to make profit, for people i know, i hang out in topics, its another thing. But look which people got often a WTB Topic open and often a WTS. Anyways that was my 2cents on that.

 

[j0ker]

Is building TO sell different from buying TO sell in ECF's judgment? There are certain people who will buy hard to get PVs with the sole purpose of selling them at a profit in the ECF classifieds. Is this acceptable?

I agree it is a tricky subject. But look at it from the manufacturer's point of view. You build a PV, register as a supplier, pay your dues...and then watch someone else make more profit on your product than you do using the same site you do, but without doing the same work you do.

I think the end result of this may indeed be the retail price of certain coveted PVs going up. And why not? If people in the classifieds can make $250 profit per sale on a used PV, why shouldn't the manufacturer be making his share on the new ones?

The ECF community tends to be fairly tight knit and all about helping one another out. Profiteering drives a wedge in the middle of the good that ECF can do because it's all about taking advantage of your fellow vaper for personal gain.

I see both sides of the argument and I myself believe there should be some type of price limitations in place but the upper staff members do not agree. Here are some of their arguments.

Who will be monitoring all these ads and verifying their pricing isn't inflated?

We don't have the manpower to check every single ad that is posted. For instance, there are 200 ads in selling right now. On some days we have close to 50 ads posted, yesterday there were 32. Verifing pricing will take at least 10 minutes each at 16 post, assuming it doesn't require conversation with the member, which is a bad assumption. Let say we verified half of those, that would be a minimum of 2 hours and 40 minutes. Like I said, minimum, it would most likely take longer than 10 minutes on a few of those. I don't know about you but I don't have the extra time to spend making sure someone isn't inflating the price.

Where do we derive this standard price? Some items can be bought multiple locations and the price varies. What sites will we use to base our decision?

Why should we have the right to basically appraise someone's item? Somethings increase in value as time goes by for various reasons, such as lack of availability, no longer produced, unavailability to ship to your country....etc. Let's face it, sometimes people are willing to pay extra to "Have right now". Who are we to say you can't do that? Let's say you've decided you want to buy the BadAssJ0ker APV but there are none stocked or they have been discontinued. So you want it now ,don't want to wait, and willing to pay what ever the cost. Joe Blow has it listed on the Classifieds for $1200 when it actually sells in the store for $100. So before you can make the purchase, I come in and shutdown the ad, ban Joe Blow (because we all know he's be caught doing this before ), and now you can't get your BadAssJ0ker APV. Ok, so maybe you don't think this way or would consider doing something like this but some will, so who are we to deny these people the right to spend there hard earned money on a drastically inflated priced APV?
***DISCLAIMER- No Joe Blow was banned in this example. Joe Blow was only an example and in no way depicts an actual Joe Blow. If you are Joe Blow, any similarities were a mere coincidence. ***

Currently, our suggestions is to ignore the inflated priced ads. If it sells, then the market supported the price, if it doesn't sell, then the seller should rethink their price.

Like I said, I see both sides of the argument, I don't like to see items listed for many times more than they cost new but at this time there will be no changes, the ads will be allowed. I've advocated for a change in this stance but the decision always ends with the current policy is the best way to manage the situation. Just ignore them and move on.

 

[GWG73]

When I go into DIY, I'm smacked with a face full of yellow warnings. When I go into the modding forum, I'm also greeted with yellow warnings. Note that I personally am glad those warnings are there. There are obviously reasons that dictate the need for warnings upon entering those forums, just as there looks to be a need for warnings upon entering the For Sale/Trade forums (albeit not health related). Regardless of what is said on ECF's behalf in this thread, I think it's safe to assume that for some at least the impression is being given that ECF somewhat supports price gouging. I absolutely don't think ECF does, but I'm talking about the impression you're giving off. I don't think there is any possible way to police and stop the price gouging that exists, however, ECF can do a better (none partial) job of discouraging it. Perhaps put those yellow warnings up upon entering the forum, do not allow any talk of seller price, good or bad....try and discourage those price gougers.

I hate, hate, hate to see people selling stuff for more than it's worth, and I know the buyers of these items have only themselves to blame for not researching the costs of things. But, this is supposed to be a community, and I would think that part of that is looking out for even the naive folks that just don't think to do some research. I don't think this is a problem that has a perfect solution, but for me at least, I think the previously mentioned suggestions might help a little.

 

[Bamrz]

It's not actually an offense to build AND sell, it's a offense to build TO sell. Members build homemade devices, this is a fact but when they build to only sell and not use, they should be reported. We've explained that members may build devices then sell them after use but are limited to 1 every 90 days. If you know someone is doing it more frequently, report them and we'll investigate their history.

The details involved with researching when a person buys, how much, etc, is not something we are capable of doing. If someone is doing it frequently, reporting this makes it possible for us to keep record and act on it should it be or become a habit.

Is there really no way for mods/admins to sort members by their feedback scores? I would think the software should allow you to sort by any info you'd like.

Since I am a very curious person, I just looked at a few names I have noticed that are in the classies very frequently. No names here, just some interesting numbers:

#1 total posts 67 feedback 76
#2 total posts 29 feedback 12
#3 total posts 173 feedback 43
#4 total posts 628 feedback 94

The above examples are not for lots of "nickel and dime" juice or carto sales. They are mostly buying and selling high-end gear.

Perhaps a dollar amount limit per month in the classies would help? I wouldn't want to see an average member being penalized for going over a certain number of transactions, but limiting the dollar amount could possibly discourage scalpers. Of course, this wouldn't work with trades though.

 

[tybin]

Thank you for at least listening For me, it's not about those that are selling at 50 dollars over, it's about those that are selling at hundreds over. We are now getting those guilty of this practice from other forums because those forums have taken steps. I'm glad you can see both sides of the story because it's been rather frustrating to see so many voice concerns and be told to get over it. This affects the community as a whole. When those gougers get away with it, Vendors consider raising the prices. After all, why shouldn't they get more for themselves if that's what folks are gonna do. Then the whole community pays. We do want devices to be affordable for ALL. As it stands, some of us forego devices we really do want, because we are trying to do the "vote with your feet". So the person who paid the 1150 over asking price( in your make believe scenario) is not the only one who is missin out So... it just seems like a lose lose.

I see both sides of the argument and I myself believe there should be some type of price limitations in place but the upper staff members do not agree. Here are some of their arguments.

Who will be monitoring all these ads and verifying their pricing isn't inflated?

We don't have the manpower to check every single ad that is posted. For instance, there are 200 ads in selling right now. On some days we have close to 50 ads posted, yesterday there were 32. Verifing pricing will take at least 10 minutes each at 16 post, assuming it doesn't require conversation with the member, which is a bad assumption. Let say we verified half of those, that would be a minimum of 2 hours and 40 minutes. Like I said, minimum, it would most likely take longer than 10 minutes on a few of those. I don't know about you but I don't have the extra time to spend making sure someone isn't inflating the price.

Where do we derive this standard price? Some items can be bought multiple locations and the price varies. What sites will we use to base our decision?

Why should we have the right to basically appraise someone's item? Somethings increase in value as time goes by for various reasons, such as lack of availability, no longer produced, unavailability to ship to your country....etc. Let's face it, sometimes people are willing to pay extra to "Have right now". Who are we to say you can't do that? Let's say you've decided you want to buy the BadAssJ0ker APV but there are none stocked or they have been discontinued. So you want it now ,don't want to wait, and willing to pay what ever the cost. Joe Blow has it listed on the Classifieds for $1200 when it actually sells in the store for $100. So before you can make the purchase, I come in and shutdown the ad, ban Joe Blow (because we all know he's be caught doing this before ), and now you can't get your BadAssJ0ker APV. Ok, so maybe you don't think this way or would consider doing something like this but some will, so who are we to deny these people the right to spend there hard earned money on a drastically inflated priced APV?
***DISCLAIMER- No Joe Blow was banned in this example. Joe Blow was only an example and in no way depicts an actual Joe Blow. If you are Joe Blow, any similarities were a mere coincidence. ***

Currently, our suggestions is to ignore the inflated priced ads. If it sells, then the market supported the price, if it doesn't sell, then the seller should rethink their price.

Like I said, I see both sides of the argument, I don't like to see items listed for many times more than they cost new but at this time there will be no changes, the ads will be allowed. I've advocated for a change in this stance but the decision always ends with the current policy is the best way to manage the situation. Just ignore them and move on.

edit: i do see that one european forum has a collectable classifieds and a regular classifieds with their new policy

 

[cags]

Thank you for at least listening ........................... We are now getting those guilty of this practice from other forums because those forums have taken steps. ............

yes, thanks for listening. I've seen on another forum where people laugh at a seller and tell them to "go to ecf if you want that kind of price" I find that very annoying!

 

[Qcaj]

I've read a lot of threads and see that this has been rehashed a lot, but why is "good price" allowed as a comment is "bad price!" isn't allowed as a comment?

As a newbie vapor, I have to be honest and say I tend to trust the opinions of ECF. If I post a thread asking what equipment I should buy, I trust that the members here will try to give me an honest opinion. That integrity seems to be verywhere else on the boards except in classifieds.

So suddenly, out of that tens of forums on ECF, "Classifieds" is the only place where it's buyer beware. Why not rename it to "Den of Snakes" then?

Again, I'm not really expecting an answer because I've seen the old posts where this is rehashed. You can't impose markup limitations because its too hard to enforce. You can't allow negative comments because it's too hard to police. So why not just... disallow positive comments, too? If people saying "Great price" are not honest about it, why should it be allowed?

I haven't really seen a satisfactory answer yet why "Great price" is allowed but "bad price" isn't. Neither comment is constructive.

 

[sandybeach]

Hi Qcaj, the classifieds are there as a convenience to us members who want to buy or sell or swap their stuff. Why would I put an ad up saying I am selling something for a bad price? Would you buy it? My suggestion is that if you don't like the way the classifieds are, go elsewhere. They are simply a place for ECF members to sell their stuff for any price that they want to sell it for.
Sandy

 

[Qcaj]

Hi Sandy, I think you misunderstood my intention. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I just meant that bumping a thread saying "Good Price" is not useful, especially when it's not true, (samw with comment of "bad price") so why not disallow both kinds?

I would like to think that all of us are members of ECF, myself included, and it's not very nice of you to dictate to me where I should and should not go.

 

[sandybeach]

Hey Q, I think people just do that to help each a friend out - if the thread is posted on, more people see it. And basically, ECF isn't a democracy. I've been given the choice to take it like it is or leave it, and I choose to take it. Cute cat in your picture.
Sandy

 

[wozntme]

A person should have to put the original retail value of the item they are listing. Then maybe somebody who is a not familiar with the ACTUAL cost of an item will have full knowledge they are getting screwed.

 

[tmcase]

Hi Sandy, I think you misunderstood my intention. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I just meant that bumping a thread saying "Good Price" is not useful, especially when it's not true, (samw with comment of "bad price") so why not disallow both kinds?

I would like to think that all of us are members of ECF, myself included, and it's not very nice of you to dictate to me where I should and should not go.

You're right. Bumping an ad with "good price" may not be true or useful. We already have a rule against saying "bad price" because that will cause trouble. Do we REALLY need another rule? I see $100 items selling for $300. I just shake my head and roll my eyes and move on. We don't need another rule!