Clone Versus Authentic Discussion

[Racehorse]

I wonder if the elitists who criticize clones ever think about why they want to "keep up with the Joneses' There’s usually a deeper reason as to why one wants the Expensive toys. Here are some possibilities provided by Wiki.

1) Career frustrations. If you’ve been feeling like a hamster on a wheel at work, where you work harder but don’t seem to get anywhere, you may be feeling a little stung by another’s material accolades (expensive equipment).

2) Low self worth. Feel as if you can’t make friends without impressing people or “wowing” them with money or a display of an expensive toy. If you're light in the wallet, you may feel as if you can’t make friends or keep them without having impressive items and instead of realizing this as an unrealistic way to look good.

3) Personal life troubles. If an area of your personal life is under attack and your self esteem is at risk, it can be tempting to look for the “quick and easy” fix to feeling superior to others. The term “the one who dies with the most toys wins” is one that isn’t lost on you––you believe that material wealth definitely will buy you the kingdom, all the while resolving any personal issues that are upsetting you currently.

4) Tough childhood. Those who may have been raised to “do without” may yearn for fancy toys as an adult. On the other hand, people who grow up in lower to middle income families may be more grateful and accepting of material items they work for and earn rather than feel as if they deserve them because they “missed out” during childhood.

Or.......... they were just raised to understand and appreciate "quality".



My grandmother taught me how to choose clothing, as a girl, where you can tell the buttons won't fall off; she showed me what a well-made blouse with double stitched seams are, etc. She was from "old country", an immigrant who had lived thru the Depression and when you bought something, it had to last for years and years and years. I have a pair of LL Bean Duck boots that I've had since college (that's a few decades ago, by the way.) When I buy slippers I buy real sheepshin, not because it's expensive, but because it is serviceable in every climate, and holds up for many years.

I don't even KNOW many people anymore I can have those conversations with......all the gals I know buy cute trendy stuff........they wouldn't even know what I was talking about.

Just like any cowboy worth his salt can explain the difference between stitched-bottom western boots and the "real deal" with the hand-nailed leather soles that aren't glued on (and are repairable by any good cobbler and will last 10+ years). Once you have a pair of custom made boots, you have a hard time putting your feet into crapola.


I remember when I moved, I was having a yard sale and some people were not even aware of what a solid wood maple bookcase was commanding a higher price than those plastic Sterilite drawers on wheels

I think the Walmart generation doesn't really know or appreciate "quality" made items anymore, and why they do command a higher price.

But like Steve mentioned, we are talking about sub-$200 vape gear anyway, whether it be clones or otherwise......hardly something that conveys bragging rights........unless it's somebody like in the olden days bought a pair of Air Jordans and thought they were suddenly in a different class.

There is a big different in the way the threads feel, when you are removing an end cap, on something from Super T. Manufacturing or Provari, than some cheap chinese clone. And I've owned many of both "classes" and there is just no comparison. IMHO only.

Just like I don't buy my shoes in Walmart, (I wear expensive shoes because I value my feet and hike a lot, not because I have any extra $$ or want bragging rights), I really don't want to own cheapo knockoff vape gear.

It's NOT about clone versus non-clone, for me its about buying quality tools. You can tell a "good carpenter" by the tools he uses. Ditto, a good tree guy. I know who to choose when I'm hiring work done on my property.

 

[ErnieKim]

I agree with USM in post #180. The same points get discussed over and over and the "big picture" is missed; it comes down to the individual item and can't be generalized. However, there are those who want to continue to knock clones so let's at least try to pull together the pros and cons in a quantifiable fashion. Perhaps then this craziness will stop. If we have to take sides, personally I feel there are many more solid, logical reasons to buy clones than authentics, it's simple logic and I believe a summary will show this.

I will also take this side in general because in this thread, we have yet to hear one LEGITIMATE reason to spend 1000% more for an authentic. The sellers of Authentics are laughing all the way to the bank.

If I see some logic in this summary, perhaps I'll change my mind; I doubt it though.

So in the spirit of a true debate, I'm starting a simple lists of pros and cons to clones. Please copy and paste the current "pro" list when you add to it so that we can always see a complete list of everyone's points. I don't really care much about the "con" because there won't be many.

Here goes:

Reasons to buy Clones and reasonably-priced originals, (i.e. $35 Subtank, Goblin, etc.):
1) authentics (i.e., anything more than 500% overpriced) are simply a "rip-off"; no added value.
2) authentics will never be a good investment (collectible) in the long run
3) clones exhibit technology improvements much more quickly
4) clones allow MANY more people to quit cigarettes
5) sales of clones provide more jobs in the US

 

[ErnieKim]

Seems those who want large collections of branded fakes are the ones who are out for 'bragging rights'...

Your comment is totally illogical.

In your own words: "Pointless. I don't think you understand the terminology, concepts or controversy..."

 

[Ryedan]

I rarely post in these threads, but I feel like it this morning so here I am

Counterfeits and clones have been around for a really long time and are not going away. Ever. No matter what governments or the police do to crack down on this market.

Counterfeits are illegal and rightly so. Telling someone an item was manufactured by company 'A' when it was actually manufactured by company 'B' is false advertising, deceit, it typically uses the quality company 'A' is known for when another company was involved and it can also be unsafe. It's wrong on many levels. I think most people understand this.

Clones are a grey area and a grey market. If the originating company didn't protect themselves through patents or trademarks or for whatever reason do not sue to stop the cloning, cloning is a legal undertaking for the cloner. That leaves the ethical thing.

The ethical side, as long as it is not illegal, is up to everyone to decide for themselves. I buy both clones and authentic as I see fit and that is not limited to vape gear. I have more authentics than clones and these days I find I'm buying more authentics because that simply works for me. Sometimes when I've bought a clone I didn't buy the authentic afterwards and sometimes I have because I liked the design and wanted better quality. Sometimes I liked the design but the quality was good enough for me so I stuck with it. Sometimes the design was not to my liking and I either sold the clone or tossed it because I didn't want to sell garbage to anyone. There are no instances when I bought the authentic after buying the clone where I would have bought the authentic without experiencing the clone first. There have also been times I have bought the clone after the authentic wore out or I wanted to upgrade to a newer model. In those cases I would not have bought the authentic upgrade or newer model.

I'm good with that. I don't care what anyone buys. If things are working out for people and they are vaping instead of smoking that's great. I strongly suspect the vast majority of people feel this way too so I'm in good company

Vape on folks

 

[ErnieKim]

It's funny how I keep hearing about "smooth" threads. I work around some great machinists. I asked one about why/how some threads are smoother than others. He told me that the smooth threads are "bad" threads and in most real-world applications are considered "rejects", yes, rejects.
I asked him why, he gave me a funny look and said: "because threads are meant to keep something on". He went on to say that a poor machinist will use a wire brush on their threads to cover up their errors, a well made thread-track will have very slight burring by design so that the part stays in place and doesn't come loose when it's not supposed to.
Hmm..., made perfect sense to me, and I know the machinist is a true expert in his trade and knows his stuff.

At any rate, giving something a quick hit with a wire brush does not in my mind make it worth 1000% more.

Also, just because something is expensive does not mean it is a "quality" item. This is where the real Fraud comes into play, I just can't understand why some people don't see it.

I've yet to hear a single example of a real, added-value feature or characteristic on an "authentic" that makes it worth SO MUCH MORE money. People say: "It's only $200", think about it, relative to other good tanks that's almost a 700% mark-up: not logical.

 

[ricks]

I disagree about the threads. Smooth threads are good for these RTA's because we need to take them apart at times. They will last longer being smooth. A rough thread will stick and stay tight but being rough will wear out faster. The orings will keep them from coming loose also.

The threads on my 2 Tobeco KF4's are nice and smooth.

I do agree with you on the authentic ones are way over priced.

 

[USMCotaku]

Agreed. For a fastener, what your friend says makes sense, but for a vape mod.....we want/need to be able to take them apart regularly, so smooth is a boon, not a negative. That being said, the only mech I own is a panzer clone.... The threading is spot on and extremely smooth. The only problem I've ever had was from a foreign object getting stuck in them (I work with horses... It's bound to happen).
Sent with one hand, the other is busy vaping.

 

[nevillebartos]

I will also take this side in general because in this thread, we have yet to hear one LEGITIMATE reason to spend 1000% more for an authentic.

So the cloners have something to clone.

 

[ErnieKim]

So the cloners have something to clone.

Using that analogy, the authentic becomes a prototype and consumers buy the mass-produced item; the clone. Why then are we: the consumers, being criticized for buying the clone?

 

[ErnieKim]

I disagree about the threads. Smooth threads are good for these RTA's because we need to take them apart at times. They will last longer being smooth. A rough thread will stick and stay tight but being rough will wear out faster. The orings will keep them from coming loose also.

The threads on my 2 Tobeco KF4's are nice and smooth.

I do agree with you on the authentic ones are way over priced.

The machinist told me that the reason why parts "stick" is in most cases due to "surface-tension". Following is an example:

My Subtank always sticks when used with the Zen (left, not a good surface-fit design) but never sticks when used on the Sentinel (right, good surface-fit design). It's obvious that there is a LOT more surface contact between the Subtank and the Zen design; hence, the need to use a rubber-faced pliers to get it off every time. Of course I quickly upgraded the Zen contact pin and figured out how to adjust the pin such that there is no contact (~.005" gap) but I'm just demonstrating the effect of "surface-tension" here.



The same surface tension occurs in threads. A well machined thread will have very slight burring so that the surfaces do not physically come into contact and "stick". There is a lot of surface area in a thread fit if you stop and think about it.

Enough with the "thread" sidebar; just an interesting tidbit I learned from a real expert. Both good and bad threads are going to stick, it's inevitable; I just keep some rubber-faced pliers around. The main point here is that:

Threads being smooth is not a distinction that should warrant a 700% price increase: it's simply not logical.

 

[ricks]

The machinist told me that the reason why parts "stick" is in most cases due to "surface-tension". Following is an example:

My Subtank always sticks when used with the Zen (left, not a good surface-fit design) but never sticks when used on the Sentinel (right, good surface-fit design). It's obvious that there is a LOT more surface contact between the Subtank and the Zen design; hence, the need to use a rubber-faced pliers to get it off every time. Of course I quickly upgraded the Zen contact pin and figured out how to adjust the pin such that there is no contact (~.005" gap) but I'm just demonstrating the effect of "surface-tension" here.

View attachment 425441

The same surface tension occurs in threads. A well machined thread will have very slight burring so that the surfaces do not physically come into contact and "stick". There is a lot of surface area in a thread fit if you stop and think about it.

Enough with the "thread" sidebar; just an interesting tidbit I learned from a real expert. Both good and bad threads are going to stick, it's inevitable; I just keep some rubber-faced pliers around. The main point here is that:

Threads being smooth is not a distinction that should warrant a 700% price increase: it's simply not logical.

A 700% price increase is simply GREED...

 

[nevillebartos]

Using that analogy, the authentic becomes a prototype and consumers buy the mass-produced item; the clone. Why then are we: the consumers, being criticized for buying the clone?

Well that's easy. Because some person / company has fronted all the ideas, effort, cash etc.. to develop the thing, AKA the prototype, only to have someone else sneak in, avoiding all that overhead, and hijack some amount of the return. It's not all of the return, because not all people buying cheap clones would have bought the authentic anyway - however those who bought it because it's 'just as good, only more cost effective', probably would have.

How does this affect us? This obviously reduces the OG manufacturers profit. If the manufacturer had this profit they might be greedy and just take it home, but more likely they would stick it in their war chest and put it towards producing better products at lower costs to compete with other authentic makers, instead of wasting the more limited amount of resources they have trying to stay ahead of the Shenzhen circus.

If the clone makers get too good at their game they'll put the authentic makers out of business completely, and we'll be stuck with whatever the cloners come up with. Maybe that's a good thing, I don't know, and I don't give a damn what anybody chooses to use, but if you enjoy the clones then you have the buyers of the authentics to thank for it, the clones are basically built into the cost of the authentic.

Also I think I saw some speculation in here of a Russian company selling the plans to the Chinese to copy - bloody brilliant idea if you ask me, may as well make something off them... Should even take it a step further and just set their own clone operation up, put those offcuts to good use.

 

[Pinggolfer]

A 700% price increase is simply GREED...

I would assume you make 700% more per hour than a Chinese worker.

 

[ricks]

I would assume you make 700% more per hour than a Chinese worker.

I'm retired... You trying to start trouble here again Ping?

 

[roxynoodle]

I rarely post in these threads, but I feel like it this morning so here I am

Counterfeits and clones have been around for a really long time and are not going away. Ever. No matter what governments or the police do to crack down on this market.

Counterfeits are illegal and rightly so. Telling someone an item was manufactured by company 'A' when it was actually manufactured by company 'B' is false advertising, deceit, it typically uses the quality company 'A' is known for when another company was involved and it can also be unsafe. It's wrong on many levels. I think most people understand this.

Clones are a grey area and a grey market. If the originating company didn't protect themselves through patents or trademarks or for whatever reason do not sue to stop the cloning, cloning is a legal undertaking for the cloner. That leaves the ethical thing.

The ethical side, as long as it is not illegal, is up to everyone to decide for themselves. I buy both clones and authentic as I see fit and that is not limited to vape gear. I have more authentics than clones and these days I find I'm buying more authentics because that simply works for me. Sometimes when I've bought a clone I didn't buy the authentic afterwards and sometimes I have because I liked the design and wanted better quality. Sometimes I liked the design but the quality was good enough for me so I stuck with it. Sometimes the design was not to my liking and I either sold the clone or tossed it because I didn't want to sell garbage to anyone. There are no instances when I bought the authentic after buying the clone where I would have bought the authentic without experiencing the clone first. There have also been times I have bought the clone after the authentic wore out or I wanted to upgrade to a newer model. In those cases I would not have bought the authentic upgrade or newer model.

I'm good with that. I don't care what anyone buys. If things are working out for people and they are vaping instead of smoking that's great. I strongly suspect the vast majority of people feel this way too so I'm in good company

Vape on folks

Agree 100%.

I often try a clone first because if I don't like it, I'm not going to take a big financial hit trying to sell it. And if there is no patent or trademark, its not illegal. If I like it, I buy the authentic when I can. If I don't like it, but if functions fine, I pass it to a friend. I have one that doesn't function fine, but I've held onto it in case another member needs parts.

I just watched a $180 Taifun GT sell for only $100 from a member who takes good care of his stuff. That's a big hit. If I weren't broke, I would've jumped on it. But, I'm not in a position to take an $80 hit if I'm not happy with it. The used market is not good right now.

 

[Pinggolfer]

I'm retired... You trying to start trouble here again Ping?

I'm being factual. I'm retired too. Why are you the advocate for the Chinese government?

 

[ricks]

I'm being factual. I'm retired too. Why are you the advocate for the Chinese government?

I just like to buy things at a good price and not get ripped off.

 

[USMCotaku]

How can one say clones are taking money from authentic modders, when they often can't keep up with the demand as it is, putting customers on waiting lists?
Most of the authentic modders aren't loosing business.
A lot of hate there for PRC in the tone of those posts......when we owe China for the whole vape thing in the first place....I don't get it.
Sent with one hand, the other is busy vaping.

 

[ErnieKim]

Well that's easy. Because some person / company has fronted all the ideas, effort, cash etc.. to develop the thing.

What exactly is all of this "development"? There is absolutely NOTHING high tech about this stuff to begin with. And then someone adds a little curve to the the top of tube that holds a battery and ask hundreds of dollars for it? c'mon.

All they've done recently is re-used a chipset that's maybe worth 10 dollars, and added a bigger tube or another air hole and that's called development?. Wow, I'm in the wrong business.

Please be specific. Give some examples. All I'm seeing here is a lot of re-hashed banter and fluff.

 

[ErnieKim]

I would assume you make 700% more per hour than a Chinese worker.

It appears that you're mixing "authentics" up with "made in America", like USM said: this stuff came from China to begin with. Recently, the better authentics are coming from China and they're selling them for a reasonable price. So I'm confused, what exactly is your point here? Are you saying that we should pay a 700% mark-up because it's made here? And if we don't pay the exorbitant amount, we should be criticized? If not, what exactly are you saying?