clone vs Authentic: The Real Discussion

[crxess]

I lied......... gotta comment.

No one, in any way, says you have to shop China or fasttech/Focalecig/etc.

Absolutely support your local or Favorite Vape supplier!

My only suggestion is shop the ones that are supporting you and NOT the ones out to steal your wallet. Price variations should be a clear indicator.

 

[runitskat]

I only own a Provari so I can't speak to mech mods. But I bought my Provari because I watched the video tour of their facility and was really impressed. I work for a small manufacturing company that makes about 99% of our products in house. The only parts we get from China are a custom made motor (that we buy from a US company) because you just can't get most of the parts to produce the motor in the states. Same with some of our electrical components. So I understand why something like the Provari costs as much as it does.

I have customers of mine say that they can get a lathe or mill from Harbor Freight so why would they buy ours which costs much more. And I tell them that they are going to have to spend hours of time and frustration to try and dial in their machine, probably won't be able to find replacement parts and tools will break often. But with ours it's all squared up right out of the box and we make every type of tool for our machines you could ever want. So you're paying for more than just a machine.

I don't know if I'd ever buy a clone because I'm pretty happy with my set up right now. I'm kind of biased towards ripping off products though since a company in China did that to my company a few years ago and it sucked knowing that a crappier version of our product was out there and could possibly be mistaken for ours. It's something that could have really hurt our business but thankfully it didn't.

 

[Mogar]

Many people have come close and some even hit the mark, however the main reason that Clones sell is very simple...
Americans are greedy. A unit is created and the person says "I can get 500 for this widget" and puts it on the market. People buy them at 500 because the widget is bright and shiny. However said widget only costs $4.95 to make. This is a huge profit for anyone to make. if this inventor is not greedy and realizes that soon other companies will be doing the same, that price will drop to the point that a clone and the original are similar in cost. IF they drop their price, the clone market will not make them because.... (wait for it)... They wont make a profit themselves.
If you don't like clones, don't cost it out so high that someone can build it, cut the price in half and still make a killing on selling it on the black market.

 

[Tinkiegrrl]

This "discussion" has been going on for a long time, so here is my take on it...

If you can afford to buy the real deal, and support small businesses and innovators, then please do so.
Consider it an act of charity, like giving money to the March of Dimes or Habitat for Humanity.

If you can't afford it, then don't feel bad about buying a clone.

Just realize that if you do not support the innovators, then they will stop innovating.
And then there won't be anything to clone.

This is NOT rocket science.
It's pure economics.

Do what is right for you.
That is all.

I can sometimes afford a genuine, and I've purchased genuine things. But, it really needs to be innovative for me to shell out that money. At this point, I'm not paying $60 or more for a 3 post dripper. I'm not paying over a $100 for a mod with what is essentially a Nemesis switch, and aside from the mechanism used to fire it, what is the difference between metal tubes? I HAVE paid for, and felt I got a good deal for a Provari for the repairability and warranty, a Lernaia Hydra for the unique switch that I absolutely love and will likely be majorly screwed up by any attempts to clone, an Erlkonigin as that would likely leak like a sieve if made by a clone manufacturer, and I will likely buy a Nanos, also for the switch. I have a genuine Expromizer because I appreciate the attempt to improve on the Kayfun, although I'd buy a clone of it due to the less then stellar machining on the genuine. It wasn't worth the $70 I paid.

 

[anyeve]

This topic always interest me. But all this take is from the American consumer / business end.

How about us from other part of the world? Especially Asia. For me personally I had to go for clones. Reasons :-

1) $$$
- Expensive - Freaking Expensive .
- An Authentic Hana Mod cost USD250 and after currency conversion, thats nearly 1/5th of my salary. I got mine from FT . The only good part is the juice over here is cheap. Even some clones are expensive.

2) Longevity -
- I am not talking about mods breaking down. My Ego, GS Sub and Vamo still works fine. I am talking about how long we will use a mod
- I own an Authentic Innokin VTR (doubt any clones for this). I thought this will last me for a long time BUT i am wrong. Once I got my FT Hana V3, thats my to go to Mod. VTR now sit besides my bed and as a backup. And in 2-3 months time, I am sure I will look at another Mod. newer and better performance.

So by including both $$$+Longevity in mind, If I am buying all original, It will cost me USD500 - USD $1000 in every 3months which is not feasible. I like to play with my toys and I love to have more of them. So clones it is for me. Doubt I will be getting a Provari. Too freaking expensive even with all the rave review. I pay for what I want and what I need. I dont need an authentic just for the sake of getting an Authentic. There are even local modders making mods and trust me, It is well overpriced. I dont support them cause I know they are just making a killing.

 

[turbocad6]

personally I'd rather have one authentic than 10 clones, and personally I'd rather spend a little more buying it from my local vape shop too, but I would never support a vape shop that sold counterfeit stuff.

all the guys who say they think an original mod is ripping you off just doesn't understand business and understand that making something by the 10's or even 100's winds up costing way more than making something by the 1,000's....

try going to a wood worker and asking him how much it would cost to have 10 toothpicks made for you to your specifications... realize that the cost of this would be extremely high, then compare that to buying a box of 1,000 toothpicks for $2. you can't say the woodworker was trying to rip you off by charging you $60 to make 10 toothpicks for you just because you can go buy 1,000 for $2, you're paying for time and labor... of course toothpicks may not be the best example because cheap toothpicks are readily available anywhere, but when it comes to custom machine work to your specs, thinking that a real usa based machine shop can produce an atty for $19 is just wrong even though making them by the thousands in china may wind up costing only $19 each.

it really drives me nuts when people say they're being ripped off just because they can get a counterfeit one much cheaper. actually it's the other way around, they are getting it much cheaper because the design was ripped off and mass produced in china... when it comes to spending money many people just throw all ethics and logic out the window and only care about lowest price... I think the same thing that has happened with tools is eventually going to happen with these mods, eventually all you'll be able to buy is the cheap stuff because all the high quality ones will just disappear. luckily right now the market is still new and there is still demand for the high quality originals, but eventually no us manufacturer will be able to compete when they wind up costing them much more to make something than the "competition" is selling them for. eventually the only choice will be if you can't beat them join them, and eventually there will be very little high end mods just like today it's so hard to find any quality tools, the majority just crave cheap crap, harbor freight type stuff is equal to fastech type stuff. yeah both screwdrivers turn screws but that doesn't make them equal and trying to find a real quality made in the usa one can get to be almost impossible, we are becoming a disposable society where quality becomes secondary to low cost, and then all that will be available will be the cheap stuff. the only reason some high quality tools still exist is because some professionals know the difference and demand quality even at a much higher cost but the average joe is no longer buying high quality made in the usa tooling because the average joe wants a whole 216 piece tool set for the same cost of a single high quality tool

I think anyone can buy whatever they want of course and it's only natural that most will go for the much cheaper options, but luckily there are still going to be those who appreciate quality enough to still drive modders to build at this point. I hope the market will always have enough to support this but eventually I see it going downhill because of all the cheap stuff available

 

[Jman8]

I always find this discussion interesting, but not much changes. It's like all other vaping issues with one side being very vocal that it isn't about to budge.

For me, it's like the 'vaping indoors' discussion. You may utterly despise that a vaper would dare vape indoors in a restaurant.

Guess what? I'm still going to vape indoors in a restaurant.

Don't really mean to change the topic, but I am yet to hear something from the authentic side that nails the clone supporters, and I lean toward the authentic side, on principle, but realize there's a few worthy considerations on the clone side of the equation.

 

[TheJakeBailey]

Russian 91 is so good because it's not a clone. Kay fun designers had went separate ways and the Russian 91 is the former owner/partner to the kayfun. That's why you like it so much because it's actually authentic.
.

Somebody may have already commented on this, but this is one of the great vaping myths. Right up there with "I'll save money by switching." SvoMesto has refuted this many times. There was no other partner, nobody left the company, etc, etc. The 91% is for all intent and purposes, a clone. just a really expensive one. Don't know how far back it would be now, but they have addressed in on their Facebook at least once in the past.

 

[Newportlocal]

Somebody may have already commented on this, but this is one of the great vaping myths. Right up there with "I'll save money by switching." SvoMesto has refuted this many times. There was no other partner, nobody left the company, etc, etc. The 91% is for all intent and purposes, a clone. just a really expensive one. Don't know how far back it would be now, but they have addressed in on their Facebook at least once in the past.

Interesting. I just found a thread and found it on their Facebook.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...put-svoemesto-kayfun-russian-rumors-rest.html

 

[TheJakeBailey]

Personally, I think the argument that innovators will stop innovating is largely hogwash. It seems there is a new hot mod or rda out every single day, and somebody will always buy them. Most are limited run, intentionally adding to the exclusivity of owning the original. I also don't buy the argument that buying a clone is taking away from anybody's business. Why? Because i think most people who buy a clone, are simply not going to spend the money on the authentic regardless of the clones existence. So that's $250 Bubba wasn't ever going to see anyway. But now everybody on the planet knows about Bubba's wonder tube, because it has been cloned and is all over the place. Bubba can say that his is better, and he may or may not be right. But without the clone, most people would have never heard of him to begin with. And lastly, i'm a long way from convinced that a lot of manufacturers aren't in bed with china anyway. A very popular RDA comes out, and less than a week later the clone is already being shipped. How does that happen? Nobody is that fast without inside knowledge.

 

[TheJakeBailey]

Interesting. I just found a thread and found it on their Facebook.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...put-svoemesto-kayfun-russian-rumors-rest.html

Here's the post from their Facebook.

Dear SvoeMesto friends,

normally we wouldn't interfere with debates going on in the vaping community, but it has come to our attention, that people get into arguments over a rumor that insistently hold itself especially in the American community. As this can be settled by a simple clarification, here is some information you might find helpful:

SvoeMesto was launched not by 2, but 3 gentlemen, one from Russia and two from Germany. And all three of them are still the shareholders of the company. There has been no split up within the founders whatsoever and we all work together with full enthusiasm.

We hope that this post can prevent further unnecessary arguments, so we all can concentrate our energy and more important and more positive things.

To all of you:
Have a wonderful day!

 

[Zealous]

Probably the only authentic mod that I’ll ever own is a Reo Woodvil. Beautiful!
Now if someone ever makes a high quality clone of it at a reasonable price, I may entertain the idea.

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! Do NOT speak those words. Precious gets very upset about such dialog & sitting in hand right now she sees eeeeeeeeeeveryyyyyyyyythiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnngggggg. So just SHHHHHH.

 

[Roxxette]

I agree 100% that the person buying the clone will not buy the original, that's why they buy the clone.

I also agree with the sentiment around that a lot of this mod are way overpriced but it is what it is and myself will support who I think deserves my money.

Like I mention before I was MIA for a while and now I mostly see big drippers around that and a lot share the same design specially with the o-ring caps thats a very old tric and I don't see a reason why they charge over 100 for that when they don't even thread the cap so it's less money invested.

At the end of the day you pay as much as you think is worth, people buy authentic either to support the original creator or they feel it worth that much, people buy the clone because it's cheaper and that's what they feel is fair price for that gear others just can't afford it and welcome the clone.

 

[USMCotaku]

personally I'd rather have one authentic than 10 clones, and personally I'd rather spend a little more buying it from my local vape shop too, but I would never support a vape shop that sold counterfeit stuff.



all the guys who say they think an original mod is ripping you off just doesn't understand business and understand that making something by the 10's or even 100's winds up costing way more than making something by the 1,000's....



try going to a wood worker and asking him how much it would cost to have 10 toothpicks made for you to your specifications... realize that the cost of this would be extremely high, then compare that to buying a box of 1,000 toothpicks for $2. you can't say the woodworker was trying to rip you off by charging you $60 to make 10 toothpicks for you just because you can go buy 1,000 for $2, you're paying for time and labor... of course toothpicks may not be the best example because cheap toothpicks are readily available anywhere, but when it comes to custom machine work to your specs, thinking that a real usa based machine shop can produce an atty for $19 is just wrong even though making them by the thousands in china may wind up costing only $19 each.



it really drives me nuts when people say they're being ripped off just because they can get a counterfeit one much cheaper. actually it's the other way around, they are getting it much cheaper because the design was ripped off and mass produced in china... when it comes to spending money many people just throw all ethics and logic out the window and only care about lowest price... I think the same thing that has happened with tools is eventually going to happen with these mods, eventually all you'll be able to buy is the cheap stuff because all the high quality ones will just disappear. luckily right now the market is still new and there is still demand for the high quality originals, but eventually no us manufacturer will be able to compete when they wind up costing them much more to make something than the "competition" is selling them for. eventually the only choice will be if you can't beat them join them, and eventually there will be very little high end mods just like today it's so hard to find any quality tools, the majority just crave cheap crap, harbor freight type stuff is equal to fastech type stuff. yeah both screwdrivers turn screws but that doesn't make them equal and trying to find a real quality made in the usa one can get to be almost impossible, we are becoming a disposable society where quality becomes secondary to low cost, and then all that will be available will be the cheap stuff. the only reason some high quality tools still exist is because some professionals know the difference and demand quality even at a much higher cost but the average joe is no longer buying high quality made in the usa tooling because the average joe wants a whole 216 piece tool set for the same cost of a single high quality tool



I think anyone can buy whatever they want of course and it's only natural that most will go for the much cheaper options, but luckily there are still going to be those who appreciate quality enough to still drive modders to build at this point. I hope the market will always have enough to support this but eventually I see it going downhill because of all the cheap stuff available

I have to say that I found some of this to be high horse hogwash. There are clones on the market that are 1:1 coppies, and their are many reviews of some clones that show the clone functioning BETTER then the way more expensive"authentic". Buying a clone doesn't mean you are foregoing quality as you seem to claim. Just like the tool analogy. Did you know that Harbor Freight, a store known for selling cheap tools, warranties their tools for LIFE? How is the $15 screw driver better? I am a horseshoe

 

[USMCotaku]

Had to break this into two posts....my phone wouldn't play well with the long post....
I am a horseshoer by trade....i understand needing quality equipment, and have tools that cost hundreds of dollars, but only because a comparable cheaper version can't be had. If a Chinese company would make a 1:1 clone of my tools (wish they would) I would buy it in a heart beat.
Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

 

[SITS]

I always buy authentic devices. I will still be using both my regulated and mech mods for years to come. I am a strong believer in you get what you pay for. I understand that some people can't afford them but they are well worth saving up for them.

 

[SingedVapor]

I am a horseshoe

I know you had to split this up but this still made my coffee come out through my nose

 

[tayone415]

I have bought and started out on clones. I said I would never get authentics and never cared to. I was happy with what I had. But then I began having problems with my clones, pieces breaking and falling apart. One mode even turned my hand green. All I want is a strong mod that I can bring with me to work and enjoy wherever. So I got the reo. First authentic I've ever had and I'm proud to own one. No one is saying you have to buy clones or authentic, but for me that was why I made the switch.

Difference between clones and authentics is the quality. Authentics are usually better made, and use better quality and have better threading although some clones are getting better. But, even 1:1 clones are not 100% exact to the original, and many have colors that the original mod never came in and the contacts are made of different materials and the metals used of the mod it self and the way the logos are etched/stamped or engraved are not as deep and not the same design if looked at compared to an authentic and the serial numbers are completely fake and fake looking on most clones. Lots of clones have bad threading and sharp threading causing squeaking and seizing and cross threading and cutting of battery wrappers and parts that aren't made right ie: uneven drilling for air flow holes or air flow control holes, post holes, some clones aren't even the same diameter another example is some of the Nimbus clones and some mods come in sizes never made by the authentic creator.

 

[WattWick]

I have to say that I found some of this to be high horse hogwash. There are clones on the market that are 1:1 coppies, and their are many reviews of some clones that show the clone functioning BETTER then the way more expensive"authentic". Buying a clone doesn't mean you are foregoing quality as you seem to claim. Just like the tool analogy. Did you know that Harbor Freight, a store known for selling cheap tools, warranties their tools for LIFE? How is the $15 screw driver better? I am a horseshoe

Fits the screws better. Higher quality/harder metal. Less stripped heads. I do RC helis. Small, easy to strip fasteners. If there's one thing I'm willing to pay a premium for, it's high quality screwdrivers and hex drivers.

A lifetime warranty won't remove a stripped screw.

Edit: Crap! Was trying my best to stay out of this thread!

 

[USMCotaku]

I know you had to split this up but this still made my coffee come out through my nose

lol, glad to be of humor to you