clone vs Authentic: The Real Discussion

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Bigflyrodder

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Go try to buy an authentic mod somewhere. The exact one you want. Right now. You can't.
Authentic modders are simply taking advantage of a spike in interest to the hobby.

This has been a driver for me in buying many clone RDAs, I get your point here.

You sell 1,000 rare authentics and make 200 bucks a piece, you made 200,000 dollars. Not bad.
You sell 100,000 mods for 30 bucks. Your margin probably 10 bucks. you just made a million bucks.

I guess modders are being more lazy than greedy at the end of the day.

So, you think they get to pocket the entire $200 they charge for their mod? Not a chance. Materials, machining and possibly the extremely host cost of those machines, labor, mark up by the reseller site, etc. etc. etc.

Don't get me wrong, they still make some money for sure but nowhere near what you are suggesting. Just sayin'.
 

Jman8

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Just pointing out that everyone (almost) buy's clones, also known as "off brand"

I thought clones were aka "counterfeit."

Like why pay for music today when you can (rather easily) get it for free? Which would you rather have - a song that you had to pay for, or the exact same song for free? Obviously, the only people that would try to charge money for a song are the greedy type of people. And greed must never ever be attributed to the people who obtain counterfeits, er, I mean clones.
 

Zealous

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LOL... I don't see the Reo being cloned any time soon. I will have me one though.... even if it cost me 2 bills.

Actually someone did make a clone of the REO. They were asking nearly as much as the authentic though. I couldn't tell what material it was made out of but it didn't look as nice as the genuine for sure.
 

USMCotaku

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I thought clones were aka "counterfeit."



Like why pay for music today when you can (rather easily) get it for free? Which would you rather have - a song that you had to pay for, or the exact same song for free? Obviously, the only people that would try to charge money for a song are the greedy type of people. And greed must never ever be attributed to the people who obtain counterfeits, er, I mean clones.


music pirating isn't an equal comparison, as that truly is stealing copyrighted material. Its taking the actual product. The mods being cloned tend to not even be copyrighted, so no law is being broken. Apples to oranges there
 

bluecat

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I thought clones were aka "counterfeit."

Like why pay for music today when you can (rather easily) get it for free? Which would you rather have - a song that you had to pay for, or the exact same song for free? Obviously, the only people that would try to charge money for a song are the greedy type of people. And greed must never ever be attributed to the people who obtain counterfeits, er, I mean clones.

I always thought for counterfeit there needed to be the intention to deceive or defraud. I don't think they are deceiving anyone. Now if they tried to sell a clone @ the same 200 bucks and market it as aan original, then yes I would call that a counterfeit.

Then again, most music today is autotune garbage with scantily clad nasty looking women gyrating around a stripper pole.
 

Jman8

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music pirating isn't an equal comparison, as that truly is stealing copyrighted material. Its taking the actual product. The mods being cloned tend to not even be copyrighted, so no law is being broken. Apples to oranges there

Once a design is put onto paper, or other medium, it is unofficially copyrighted. A case can be made (assuming one wants to pay the legal fees) that copyright does exist and that it has been violated by the one who stole the design to make their own product. A law has been broken, but as China doesn't really observe this law, then it is possible to suggest "no law is being broken." If China breaks copyright on pirated music, who is going to stop that?
 

Equilibrium

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Once a design is put onto paper, or other medium, it is unofficially copyrighted. A case can be made (assuming one wants to pay the legal fees) that copyright does exist and that it has been violated by the one who stole the design to make their own product. A law has been broken, but as China doesn't really observe this law, then it is possible to suggest "no law is being broken." If China breaks copyright on pirated music, who is going to stop that?

The only way this will hold up is with a "poor man's patent".... take a copy of said plan/design, put it in an envelope and mail it to yourself but never open the envelope.

The plan/design is sealed inside the envelope and dated by the USPS. As long as it's never opened it will hold up in court.
 

turbocad6

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I have to say that I found some of this to be high horse hogwash. There are clones on the market that are 1:1 coppies, and their are many reviews of some clones that show the clone functioning BETTER then the way more expensive"authentic". Buying a clone doesn't mean you are foregoing quality as you seem to claim. Just like the tool analogy. Did you know that Harbor Freight, a store known for selling cheap tools, warranties their tools for LIFE? How is the $15 screw driver better? I am a horseshoe

if you believe that the $1 screwdriver is just as good as the $15 screwdriver because they both can turn a screw then good for you, you just saved yourself $14. I did say that I think anyone can buy anything they want, that of course does include you :)

harbor freight is 100% legit and I have no problem with cheap stuff, everyone has the choice of weather to buy cheap stuff or buy good stuff and there is a place and a market for both. harbor freight is NOT selling cheap tools that are copies of and labeled "snap-on" though, they are a legitimate off brand seller and to anyone with morals and ethics, there is a HUGE difference, and if having morals puts me on a high horse then I don't see that as an insult, too many low horses out there if you ask me :)

some people appreciate the finer things and are willing to pay for them while some people don't want to spend a penny more that they have to, both are fine and everyone can make there own choice. yes a honda can do much of the same things that a mercedes does, and yes it may even be better in some areas too. if you are trying to supply the most cost effective mode of transportation then yeah the honda may be a better fit for you and there is nothing wrong with that, but running around saying the honda is better and that the mercedes is a rip off is just ignorance


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the term clone is a cute term, it's used to disguise the fact that these things are really counterfeit rip offs, plain and simple. they in no way fit the definition of "clone", but they are counterfeit by it's very definition, just as fake gucci bags and fake rolex's are counterfeits too. to say they are just cheaper off brands is far from true, something can be a cheap off brand and not try to steal from the popularity of established brands, that's perfectly fine.

companies like hcigar and tobeco and whoever else is capitalizing by ripping off an established design are not just off brands, they are thieves, and the sad part is, the general public is supporting them and making them rich, rewarding them for their thievery because they are either ignorant or greedy or just don't care. it's a shame that in this industry thievery has run so rampant and so many greedy or ignorant consumers are driving this market, so much so that they stand there and fight FOR the thieves and defend them. I'd like to believe that most are just ignorant, unfortunately this is not always the case, many know they are ripoffs but support them anyway, driven by greed and not really caring about anything but their own benefit. it's actually pretty sad to me... some will do it simply because they feel it's all they can afford which may very well be the case, but just because you don't have many hundreds to spend does not mean you have to support this kind of stuff, it's entirely possible to buy a complete vape setup on a budget without supporting and driving the market for thievery if you actually care, it's really a shame most don't care though


if a thief goes out and steals a car radio and can sell it in 20 minutes then guess what, he'll go steal another, and another, and keep doing so until he either gets caught or winds up not being able to sell anything he has stolen. by buying "hot" merchandise you are driving the thief to steal, you are creating their market. if everyone had morals and refused to buy the hot merchandise then there would be no market for it, unfortunately greed runs rampant through our society and there will always be those whose sole concern is for themselves and they are happy to get a $400 item for $40, never giving any thought to the victim or the fact that they are driving the thief to steal again. don't care, I got a $400 thing for $40, that's all that matters.

how wonderful it would be if when a company goes out and rips off someone elses design, the public rebelled against them and refused to by them. the shame of the whole thing is, if these companies had any ethics at all they could easily dominate the market with legitimate off brands too, hell they could actually become legitimate brands in their own right, but when the market supports this thievery they have no reason to do so. this is organized crime, not capitalism and the customers drive this market which really is sad. they even defend this market and defend the thieves because of their own greed or ignorance and they accept the way things are because as they see it everyone else does too... they tell themselves that there is no victim and even blame the victim and accuse them of being the rip off, it's just so ironic. there are not many markets out there that would knowingly support this thievery, if for nothing more than appearances... many legitimate companies outside the vaping world would not want to be associated with supporting thievery, but in the vape business you have guys building their whole business on selling these counterfeit rip off items and you have many consumers also supporting these businesses too. personally I refuse to support thieves or those who resell these counterfeits just to make a quick buck.

the sad part is that the original mod makers are probably the only ones in this chain that are NOT stealing, yet the supporters of this thevery are the ones calling the mod makers "rip offs" to justify their own actions and somehow try to justify their support of this thevery, turning the victims into thieves in there own mind to irrationally justify themselves... it really is pretty sad...
 

USMCotaku

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If you think that these "original" makers aren't doing the same thing, then why are most mods nearly identical variations on a theme? If they were as innovative as claimed, and not also stealing design with slight alterations, then we would have a crap load more options to choose from as consumers. A counterfeit is sold as the real thing, usually with the consumer not knowing the difference until it is to late. These cloned mods are not (except for some sleaze balls on Craigslist). They are sold as what they are, nemesis STYLE, panzer STYLE, labeled up front as a copy. A copy of NON patented designs that are themselves altered copies of earlier designs. If someone is selling a clone as if it's the original, them yes, that is morally wrong. But to make such a big deal out of clones, being sold ad clones, is a bit ludicrous, especially trying to claim moral high ground over a perfectly legal process. If an "original" modder comes up with something truly innovative and gets a patent on it, I would agree that any cheap copies would be wrong, but that's just not the case here. I bought a clone, knowing it was a clone. It looks as good as, has comparable build quality to, and works as well as the "original", for 1/10th the price. I didn't break any laws doing so (as the buying stolen radios analogy would be doing), nor did I break any moral code. Most people taking a stance against clones do so more for the fear that clones makes their $200 metal tube a little less special, then some altruistic concern for the wellbeing of some unknown modder out there.
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turbocad6

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If you think that these "original" makers aren't doing the same thing, then why are most mods nearly identical variations on a theme? If they were as innovative as claimed, and not also stealing design with slight alterations, then we would have a crap load more options to choose from as consumers. A counterfeit is sold as the real thing, usually with the consumer not knowing the difference until it is to late. These cloned mods are not (except for some sleaze balls on Craigslist). They are sold as what they are, nemesis STYLE, panzer STYLE, labeled up front as a copy. A copy of NON patented designs that are themselves altered copies of earlier designs. If someone is selling a clone as if it's the original, them yes, that is morally wrong. But to make such a big deal out of clones, being sold ad clones, is a bit ludicrous, especially trying to claim moral high ground over a perfectly legal process. If an "original" modder comes up with something truly innovative and gets a patent on it, I would agree that any cheap copies would be wrong, but that's just not the case here. I bought a clone, knowing it was a clone. It looks as good as, has comparable build quality to, and works as well as the "original", for 1/10th the price. I didn't break any laws doing so (as the buying stolen radios analogy would be doing), nor did I break any moral code. Most people taking a stance against clones do so more for the fear that clones makes their $200 metal tube a little less special, then some altruistic concern for the wellbeing of some unknown modder out there.
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to me that is just your way of justifying it to yourself, relying on technicalities of patents? really? so because it's not patented then it's ok to make a counterfeit copy, mass produce them and sell them at a fraction of the cost? were not talking about a similar design here or working from an established general design and putting your own twist on it making it uniquely yours, we're not talking about innovation, were talking about going out of your way to try to make your item look exactly like a popular established product, right down to the unique markings and serial numbers, to capitalize on another companies successful product, yet you see it as justified. there are not many markets that would support this kind of thievery.

morals is caring about "some unknown modder out there", when you have morals you don't have to know a person to care about not hurting that person, when you have no morals you only care about yourself. do you know for a fact that no modder has ever been hurt because there product design has been stolen and cloned? obviously you don't really care, well good for you, as long as you get what you want then nothing else matters to you and you'll even support and defend the thief because you are getting what you want, screw some "unknown modder", it's there fault that they won't give you there mod for a fraction of what it costs them to produce it and earn a profit...

earning a profit is not a crime, stealing a design and making a counterfeit is, the ONLY reason they can get away with this is because the small modders just can't afford to protect themselves from this kind of thievery, but that doesn't make it right, and standing on the no patent platform and saying it's perfectly fine is just wrong. I hope you never have to know the feeling of being robbed and being helpless to do anything about it, and I also hope that if you ever did get robbed that everyone doesn't run around slandering you and rewarding the thief. in business there will always be competition and competition is good, but thievery is not competition
 

USMCotaku

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Can't afford to protect themselves? Please. Do just a little bit of research. A patent isn't that hard to obtain, or all that expensive. A little profit? Again, please. These clones have gone a long way towards proving that these modders you are so fond of are gouging the market, a pretty morally reprehensible practice. No there ISN'T anything morally wrong with copying an unpatented item and reproducing it. That's pretty standard business. Guarantee you have purchased many such items in your time, yet you choose these mech mods to make a moral stand? A third time, please. If you can't be honest with yourself on why these clones bother you so much, that's your hang up, not ours. But trying to force others to follow your misguided moral code is in itself morally reprehensible, a practice followed by religious extremists and terrorists world wide. I'm right, you're wrong, and if you disagree you have no morals.......really? The core of your argument is asinine at best. If that's where you are going to take your argument to, then I bid you good day, for I refuse to be pulled down to that level of drivel
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