clone vs Authentic: The Real Discussion

[USMCotaku]

If its not patented, AND not being sold AS the copied item, it's not counterfeit, and you will see the same practice in a lot of businesses, such as electronics for example.
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[USMCotaku]

You guys have your moral high ground, we have ours, neither side will make a difference in the others viewpoint, so this is starting to feel like an argument in doctrine
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[tayone415]

Couldn't delete this post. ECF needs to let people delete their posts.

 

[DC2]

(I'm a horseshoe remember )

I have liked a number of your posts, which means I respect you as a poster.
But from now on, you are a horseshoe.

 

[tayone415]

To those that say they only buy authentic... What type of car do you drive? What home do you own? Please remember you are driving something that is more than likely modeled after a different car designer and living in a home that is a model of someone's design.
There are very few exceptions to the "car" thing (Mustang / Ford F series etc) but those are still far and few between.
The homes... unless you buy from the designer, you are ALL GUILTY of this. the only exception to this is if you designed your home on your own.

This post sounded a bit harsh after I read it, I do not intend on upsetting anyone. Just pointing out that everyone (almost) buy's clones, also known as "off brand"

There's a huge difference between copying an idea or design or part of one and trying to copy it exactly and use someone's logos and trademarks. How can you have a non-authentic car or home? Is China making almost exact copies of a BMW or Mercedes and much higher end cars and putting that manufacturer's logo on it and selling between 10-50% of the cost of the actual manufacturers cost. Does your home have an etching or engraving of the designer's logo or trademark on it with a serial number? NO. Is there houses with fake etchings or engravings and random serial numbers on the outside? NO.

On the business/greed note:



Go try to buy an authentic mod somewhere. The exact one you want. Right now. You can't.
Authentic modders are simply taking advantage of a spike in interest to the hobby.

They make a metal tube, etch a design on it, hype something "unique" about it. But lets be honest, no mech mod is 250 dollars unique.
Then they only make a small run to make it seem exclusive.

This way they can make more money doing less. On one hand props to them, they are taking advantage of the hype, and cashing in.
And they are doing it with minimal investment from their end.
Less product, less cost, higher price due to perceived exclusivity/rareness = Most profit for least work/input.

Meanwhile someone in China makes something very similar and sells it for 30 bucks. They too make a profit. Probably a much larger profit. Because they realize that as long as they make them, people are buying them.

You sell 1,000 rare authentics and make 200 bucks a piece, you made 200,000 dollars. Not bad.
You sell 100,000 mods for 30 bucks. Your margin probably 10 bucks. you just made a million bucks.

I guess modders are being more lazy than greedy at the end of the day.

As for Value:
The value is created by the manufactured "exclusivity" of the small production run.
Basically, these guys are getting in, and getting out as quick as they can.
They got the cash. And then they might make another production run 6 months later. "Excusivity" is already manufactured, so they sell out of their 1,000 mod run again. The cycle repeats.

This is present in all industries. Vaping is unique in that this applies to essentially all of the "Authentic" mod makers. Thus the reason for the all the posts about it.

I can actually buy 3 authentic mods I want right now and inside 3 different B&Ms a copper 4nine at one store, a copper Manhattan with or without gold contacts at 2 stores and the copper Vigo at 1-2 stores. Also most things sold are sold way above what it cost to make it, shoes, clothes, sunglasses, electronics, watches and jewelry even going out to eat, it's a business. It's like saying why buy expensive Nikes or higher end designer shoes when you can buy all your shoes at Payless, because you just put your feet in it.

 

[USMCotaku]

I have liked a number of your posts, which means I respect you as a poster.
But from now on, you are a horseshoe.

ah, dang this phone for saddling me with a label (ha, another horse related pun)

 

[DC2]

I'm going to make this comment then shut up. I make get villafied by some but so be it.

I've read numerous times in numerous threads about modders being greedy. I understand that buying and selling here on the forum we are not allowed to set up shop for profit, the idea is to sell what you aren't using for a fair price.

Manufacturing/ modding is not the same. These people/businesses (businesses are nothing more than a group of people with a common goal) are doing what they do in order to make $. Some have other motives such as helping bring innovations to market, saving the environment, etc but the primary goal of a business is to make $ for the owners or shareholders no mater what they say.

There are problems with free enterprise but they pale in comparison to the issues with other market types. There are always going to be individuals or businesses that try to cut corners or put bad or unsafe products on the market to make a quick buck. For this reason I'm not against all regulation but for the most part, capitalism regulates itself. If a product is bad, unsafe or even just unsuitable the company won't sell them at any price for any length of time and will eventually change their strategy or go out of business.

This brings me to value. The value of an item is based on how much someone is willing to pay. How much did the materials cost that went into the Mona Lisa? The cost of the materials is irrelevant. When someone tries to sell a product for more than its value, guess what happens... it doesn't sell. The fact that these modders are selling out run after run of their products says that the value is there. If it wasn't, they would be sitting on a boatload of product.

Anyone who has owned or been involved in a small business knows also that a large portion of the final price of the product is made up of imbedded taxes. The govt always gets it's pound of flesh. This is addition to the escalating cost of liability insurance which has to be worked into the pricing. This is in addition to the cost of tooling, set up fees, labor, shipping, space to work from, raw materials and so on.

I fully understand someone not wanting to pay or being able to afford high end mods and accessories but that in no way makes the individual or business asking the price greedy. If you don't want to or can't pay the price, don't buy it. Enough people don't buy it and the value deflates, enough people do and the value goes up, simple as that, supply and demand.

If your boss came to you and said you are being greedy, I need you to take a pay cut, how would you handle that?

Shutting up now.

End of thread.

 

[rzil]

Vaping is no longer something small, its already a big business and will continue to grow and with that comes china and the clones, if they can protect the design go for it.

Like @Dangerman posted a lot of people feel the same way and just plain and simple won't pay the prices so imo the modders are not losing customers since this people just won't pay that kind of money and i can't blame then; i was away of the forum and anything ecig related for like a year or more so i was not aware of a lot of new stuff that came out and of course the full rise of the clones here in my country pretty much 99% of the mods and attys you see around are clones (found out recently) and i was shocked with the Russian 91%, i honestly didn't know this was a clone of the small kayfun (before i went MIA from the vaping scene only big kayfun existed) all i knew was that a friend told me to try this and that it was better than my oddyseus due to only using resistance wire so i got the Russian 91 and is a great vape with top notch quality but i found out not long ago that its a clone of the small kayfun.... Well i now have a original kayfun and they are basically the same function wise but to my surprise i feel that the Russia is better made while costing less, threads are smoother, pin can be adjusted and you can tight the draw as you like.

Thats why people buy the clones, they can't justify the prices when they can get the same performance a lot cheaper of course don't assume it will be the same quality or attention to detail.

Well the only clone i own is the Russian 91, all my other gear is authentic and will continue to do so just because i prefer to support the modders but im only loyal to 2-3 its not like i buy all the new gear available.

Depends if you are new to mods or not , as some1 who is new to it , I wouldn't pay 100$ for something I don't know much about so I did buy an authentic device but only for 35$ and it's Chinese (magneto) .
Maybe when I know a little more , I might get myself some nice expensive mod .

 

[USMCotaku]

Here is a good example of how properly pricing your product instead of gouging will keep the need and market for clones at bay....innokin. As of yet, there are no clones for the v3 (nor most of there product. I don't say all because I don't know that for fact, and I DO have morals). Why is there no v3 clones? Because they supply a quality product at a fair market price, so there is no profit to be made in copying it. If someone was able to produce a cheaper version of like quality, without breaking patent laws to do so....i would be happy to buy the cheaper version. But because of the fair pricing, it's highly unlikely to happen.
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[bluecat]

The only way this will hold up is with a "poor man's patent".... take a copy of said plan/design, put it in an envelope and mail it to yourself but never open the envelope.

The plan/design is sealed inside the envelope and dated by the USPS. As long as it's never opened it will hold up in court.

Actually. They way I remember from a client who did have this issue (similar and not related to the poor man patent - which incidentally was many years ago and with technology would never hold up in court today) ,, the only way you can have an infringement case is to have a registered patent. So if you never have registered it, it would be thrown out.

 

[SingedVapor]

Here is a good example of how properly pricing your product instead of gouging will keep the need and market for clones at bay....innokin. As of yet, there are no clones for the v3 (nor most of there product. I don't say all because I don't know that for fact, and I DO have morals). Why is there no v3 clones? Because they supply a quality product at a fair market price, so there is no profit to be made in copying it. If someone was able to produce a cheaper version of like quality, without breaking patent laws to do so....i would be happy to buy the cheaper version. But because of the fair pricing, it's highly unlikely to happen.
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In all fairness the same could be said for the Reo. The reo is an authentic high quality expensive mod that is run by one person and as of yet no one has cloned it (or else you would have heard it vehemently opposed)

 

[bluecat]

End of thread.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pur...twork&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=shop

We can end the thread with this. Purchase the La Giocanda from anywhere 18 bucks to 300 on the first page. I am assuming this is all illegal too? Or maybe the Da Vinci estate is planning to sue?

 

[turbocad6]

...That's pretty standard business. Guarantee you have purchased many such items in your time...,

I will admit to being wrong and bow to you, and like every post you ever make from now on if you can show me just ONE example of anything like these counterfeits being acceptable in ANY other industry in the usa, just one... here is your chance to prove yourself and prove me wrong... I'm not talking about similar yet different cheap knockoffs that are purposely just different enough to get away with it, I'm talking about counterfeit right down to copying the trademarks, show me one...

 

[Jman8]

The only way this will hold up is with a "poor man's patent".... take a copy of said plan/design, put it in an envelope and mail it to yourself but never open the envelope.

The plan/design is sealed inside the envelope and dated by the USPS. As long as it's never opened it will hold up in court.

This would all be true if we were living in 1956. But there are plenty of ways to establish when a design (of the technical variety) was logged within a permanent medium. Plus, it is rather simple to determine whether the copier is engaging in deceptive or non-deceptive counterfeiting. In this thread, we are talking about non-deceptive counterfeiting as both a practice and quasi-legitimate market. The designs are, in many cases (though not all) known to be rip-offs. Why would we downplay that when it is a non-deceptive market? In lots of these posts it isn't downplayed, but in some it seems to be way around the unethical nature of what is clearly going on.

The counterfeit market works within vaping because the industry is so new and because it is rather unregulated, plus has plenty of competing foreign interests.

IMO, stealing the design is worse than replicating a logo, but I recognize replicating logo and trademarks gets us into the deceptive kind of counterfeiting. While it is 'simply a metal tube' if it were truly that simple, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Copying a song, based on the simplicity of what is actually being replicated, doesn't mean that the meaning, or value, of what is being copied makes for simple justification. And yet, to those on the side of 'counterfeiting/cloning is cool' the simpler the justification, the easier it is to navigate the market, and get what you want.

To me, counterfeiting so openly is uncool and on principle it is challenging to justify. Yet, with looming regulations that may be influenced by zealous activists, I must admit that I am counting on counterfeiting as a fairly decent counter measure to what may be thrown at us. Really FDA, you think you'll magically be able to stop Chinese manufacturers from getting product into vapers hands? Really really? I'd almost like to see you try just so I can have an ongoing laugh (at you).

 

[DC2]

https://www.google.com/search?q=pur...twork&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=shop

We can end the thread with this. Purchase the La Giocanda from anywhere 18 bucks to 300 on the first page. I am assuming this is all illegal too? Or maybe the Da Vinci estate is planning to sue?

Sorry, I already ended the thread.

 

[Jman8]

I will admit to being wrong and bow to you, and like every post you ever make from now on if you can show me just ONE example of anything like these counterfeits being acceptable in ANY other industry in the usa, just one... here is your chance to prove yourself and prove me wrong... I'm not talking about similar yet different cheap knockoffs that are purposely just different enough to get away with it, I'm talking about counterfeit right down to copying the trademarks, show me one...

IMO, every industry has this as potential and not just hypothetical. With non-deceptive counterfeiting, it becomes acceptable. People who trade in copied music are not being deceived that it was ripped off / replicated. And they are getting equal quality in many cases. Same goes for movies. Both industries are well aware of this occurring and thus come up with other incentives for those who will pay market value for the exact same content. I'm pretty sure we can add in all books to this list. I would say it happens fairly often with electronics and software, yet because there are billion dollar companies in that arena, then lawsuits are far more likely. Apple and Samsung have been in rather popular battles, though only scratch the surface of anything that resembles what we are discussing here.

As I said in another thread on this topic, I long for the day when 3D printers and robots can take care of replicating whatever it is we all are doing currently in terms of product and services, whereby the playing field will be even. Right now, it is kinda cool to replicate certain things and let the chips fall where they may. A music artist is 'greedy' if they are all bent out of shape over their music being replicated. Same thing happens with vaping, we apply the "greed" label to the mod manufacturer going about it legitimately and that dares to criticize participants in the non-deceptive counterfeit market. Most manufacturers don't criticize and just suck it up and treat it as it is what it is. Still a chance to make a decent living.

IMO, it clearly messes with the economics of the entire market, as well as related markets. And if it were treated with ethics in mind, the copiers would simply buy licensing rights and/or share a portion of their revenue with the originator, as if that doesn't even need a contract to exist, but is just known to be fair for all involved. Instead, that sort of arrangement would likely need to be seen as enforced and yet another reason to apply the "greed" label to the originator.

I think a non deceptive counterfeit market will always be acceptable on some level, and forever something that would be very challenging to enforce in a world where there are competing foreign interests.

 

[USMCotaku]

http://www.sunglassreplicas.com/shopp_s/122.htm

Nuff said
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[turbocad6]

yeah, read the disclaimer, then try again




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[USMCotaku]

And are the mod clones EXACT copies?
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[Jman8]

DISCLAIMER:

Disclaimer: SunglassReplicas.com, is NOT ASSOCIATED WITH Arnette Sunglasses(R), Adidas(R), Anarchy(R), Armani(R), Arnette(R), Aviators(R), Black Flys(R), Bolle(R), Brighton(R), Calvin Klein(R), Cartier(R), Chloe(R), Chopper(R), Christian Dior(R), Coach(R), Chanel(R), Diesel(R),DKNY(R), Dolce & Gabbana(R),D& G (R), Dragon(R), Fendi(R), Gargoyles(R), Gucci(R), Guess(R), Harley(R), Juicy(R), Kenneth Cole(R), Killer Loop(R), Liz Claiborne(R), Locs(R), Maui Jim(R), Nautica(R), Nike(R), Prada(R), Ralph Lauren(R), Tommy Hilfiger Sunglasses (R),Matrix Sunglasses (R), Ray Ban Sunglasses(R), Revo(R), Roxy(R), Serengeti(R), Smith(R), Spy(R), De Designer eyewear DE(R) , Versace(R), Vogue (R), Roberto Cavalli Sunglasses (R) or the mentioned name brands. Our products may be comparable in quality and style, but these are NOT the authentic or genuine designer name brand items. The products we offer are not knock offs, replica or fake with the designer company's trademarks on them, but are inspired by and comparable to the designer trademarked name. Our products are NOT ORIGINAL and we do not represent them to be and they are NOT EXACT COPIES; so they do not violate any copyright laws. Our products are no name brands. The references to brand names are made strictly for comparison only. We are in no way affiliated to , associated or sponsored by any of the designer trademark owners. We ask the consumer to compare the style, price and quality of the designer brands to ours. If you would like the original, authentic product please purchase it from an authorized dealer. Check out our designer alternative sunglasses, discount sunglasses, cheap sunglasses, men's sunglasses, women's sunglasses, sports sunglasses, aviator sunglasses and celebrity sunglasses.

Contrary to the part I chose to bold, I would say them making the claim does not free them of all copyright laws. There would be no way for me (or anyone) to perform the same exact version of any existing song today, and so by this logic, I could perform any song I want (and charge money for it, and keep all the money myself), because I have not replicated it exactly.

We could start quoting portions of existing copyright law if people really are disputing how these replicators are likely violating both the spirit of the law and likely exact wording.