Cloud9vaping pulls Five Pawns and other liquids from the shelf after testing.
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Before you start casting aspersions on Cloud 9 and their testing protocols....I must warn that they are one of the oldest and most respected vendors in the UK.
Cloud 9 is losing $$ by tossing all this juice, which they paid Five Pawns for. Not to mention they are losing sales from customers who were buying it from them.
From an economic standpoint, they would have zero reason to delist a product if they weren't serious about selling ejuice with AP levels that meet certain safety requirements.
It seems that the "conspiracy theory" of testing labs, which has been used in the past by diketone deny-ers ( i.e. that Enthalpy and AESMA are evil, "out to get some vendors", etc.) doesn't apply here, since C9 is in the UK.....and they used a UK testing lab.
I guess at this point I need to ask: Is there ANY accredited laboratory ANYWHERE on the planet that would be acceptable to the *diketone deny-ers* at this point?
( or will we just continue to read re-runs of these conspiracy theories?)
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Gotcha.
The reason I asked is the Reference to Exploding Inboxes was for Cloud9.
Although I am Sure that Five Pawns e-Mail Serves are probably pegged in the Red Also.
LOL
BTW - Five Pawns turning Off comments to social media sites is a Wise Move.
But Not Releasing an Official Statement is PR Suicide.
Not sure who is Advising Five Pawns? But they should be Fired Summarily.
But Not Releasing an Official Statement is PR Suicide.
Not sure who is Advising Five Pawns? But they should be Fired Summarily.
Can I say this?
Transparency is the problem, not that there might be "some" AP / DA in an eliquid.
However, that said, if the levels of AP/DA in a small bottle of ejuice is 100x what you get in a pack of cigarettes, then there's a problem (at least for me).
But for others, let's say there is 5% the amount in a day's vape, compared to a pack of cigs. And if you MUST HAVE your AP, then I would say "keep vaping", because to go back to smoking would be a seriously bad thing.
The whole point is that if vaping is "harm reduction", then it needs to be reduced harm, not 100x what you get in a pack of cigs, cabish? I think most people can sort of agree with me on this?
Transparency is the problem, not that there might be "some" AP / DA in an eliquid.
However, that said, if the levels of AP/DA in a small bottle of ejuice is 100x what you get in a pack of cigarettes, then there's a problem (at least for me).
But for others, let's say there is 5% the amount in a day's vape, compared to a pack of cigs. And if you MUST HAVE your AP, then I would say "keep vaping", because to go back to smoking would be a seriously bad thing.
The whole point is that if vaping is "harm reduction", then it needs to be reduced harm, not 100x what you get in a pack of cigs, cabish? I think most people can sort of agree with me on this?
Quote (0:43) from RPAD's May 28, 2013 interview with Rodney Jerabek, Founder & President of Five Pawns,
However, his customers not knowing what he was hustling to put in their lungs hasn't seemed to disturb Mr. Jarabek the tiniest little bit.
That is kind of exactly my question now. Is vaping five pawns 100 times in ap/da worse than having a Pack of cigarettes. Or a small percentage of having a Pack of cigarettes?
Yes I read that.
Five Pawns took it all back. They didn't dump it.
I just spoke with Five Pawns and they said a statement will be made on FB and other media outlets. I'll give them the benefit of some time to make their statement.
To be fair when you are on FB you are open to a barrage of terrible comments and most of those never tried Five Pawns.
Are you one his customers? Unfair to keep the attacking going on from one source located in the UK. Their cloud 9 brand ejuices are made in China and why do they not list the test results of their own ejuice?
Unfortunately, roxy, some of the diketone levels in some ejuices was 10x ....and even 100x....... that of cigarettes.
that is where harm reduction is not really harm reduction anymore, AFAIC. And that is why this is a big deal to some of us.
the ones that Dr. F. tested, that 74% that had diketones, they were all mostly under what you'd get in pack of cigs over course of a day, depending on how much you vape.
But some of these latest values, unfortunately, represent way way more than you would get from smoking a PAD of cigs, by only using about 6ml of ejuice.
So this is the *value* of testing. Not just to see what is in there, but *how much*. Remember, the dose makes the poison in many respects. What if somebody is vaping 15ml+ a day, and that eliquid already has 50x what a similar pack of cigs gives them?
That is really way more risk than I am willing to take in order to vape a certain flavor or group of flavors. But that's just me.
Publishing the Results of a 3rd Party e-Liquid is something I would like to See every Retailer doing. It is Not Enough to just take the word of 3rd Party of what Is or Isn't in an e-Liquid.
But the Same Standard should Apply to someone Selling their Own Brand.
And I can certainly respect that! And, other than this subject, I am usually very generous with my benefit of a doubt, in most all areas of life.
BTW, how did you feel about the Suicide Bunny situation? Maybe one of the reasons some people are less willing to give benefit of a doubt is because they already feel they have been jerked around a bit in similar circumstances.
I have to admit, I have a lot more respect for ejuice companies like Mystic who instead of complaining, dodging and backtracking, "very quicky began work on a reformulated version of their Vanilla Custard as soon as they were made aware of these results..."
I have to admit that after Russ did those phone interviews with the ones Vapor Shark tested, and there was nothing but stuttering and excuses......well, I kinda had my fill by that time with all this. I mean, I wasn't left with the impression that my safety was of ultimate important to anybody.
so this explains my lack of patience at this point. That, and the fact that Dr. F's report came out over a year ago to date. The foot dragging and inertia seems rather "high"?
I give you a ton of credit for being a patient soul in this subject matter.
I've got to be honest at the moment the only juice maker I have any real trust in is nicoticket, they openly posted the lab results after having their products tested and left it to customers to make an informed decision about what they were willing to accept, I think all makers should give us more information and let us decide what we consider to be an acceptable risk, things like this are what fuels the anti vaping groups and not only leave us at risk but add more nails to the coffin for vaping in general
I agree with you on Nicoticket. Not a fan of their ejuices anymore. I loved CLS but it seemed to wear off on me, also the Virus was one of my favorites. I've enjoyed Five Pawns Gambit for a time now and I know Five Pawns is not a fly by night outfit so I hold out hope for them to make a statement and if there is an issue I expect them to take care of it now.
A little tidbit from the owner ( ? ) of cloud9 re their dealings with Suicide Bunny from the U.K forum thread linked to earlier in this thread :
Hi Steve,
It is true, manufacturers are refusing to supply some of this data, not just tests, but even MSDS.
This was the response we received from the US distributor of Suicide Bunny when we requested test results and relevant MSDS from them back in December last year:
"The information that I sent to you was all that we received from suicide bunny. Thats the only information I have to send to you. I believe she just wants to keep that information proprietary. Im hoping that is enough info for you. ...... The actual mix that they are using is information that we don't have and would not be able to send. This would allow other companies to copy their products. We do business with about 40+ companies in the UK and this has not been an issue for us. I sent all information that I have. There is nothing more I can send. I look forward to doing business with you and your company, and I hope this doesn't prevent us from doing business."
Needless to say, it did prevent us from doing business, and this same issue has prevented us from doing business with most juice suppliers in the US.
I am not a customer of either Cloud 9 nor Five Pawns. However, Cloud 9 is a large, well established UK vendor with a very good reputation. It would be insanity and highly uncharacteristic of them to trash it by publishing false lab reports.
I took a quick look at Five Pawns offerings once and saw a laundry list of flavors that are normally associated with diketones. Their web site did not indicate anywhere that they tested for them. Diketones taste like pure chemical nastiness to me so I took a pass on ever ordering from them.
Some of the larger Chinese juice labs have state-of-the-art equipment and QC that is as good, if not better, than labs in the U.S. according to knowledgeable people I know who have inspected them. Cloud 9 states on their web site that their house juices are tested by an independent lab. Contact them for copies of the results if you don't believe them.
Fair would have been Five Pawns testing what they have been selling to their customers.
the general rule of thumb is if you don't want DA or AP leave the buttery type of liquids.
fortunately for me I couldn't stand those flavors for more than 1 vape. now I love my fruits and hope there won't be any issue in those on the future
fortunately for me I couldn't stand those flavors for more than 1 vape. now I love my fruits and hope there won't be any issue in those on the future
You can say the same for most juice vendors and the flavors they offer. I'm always amazed at people who haven't bought from a company knowing how great they are. I have bought from Cloud 9 and from Five Pawns. Once again everyone knows someone who went to China and walked through the state of the art factories and juice labs. I have no clue to how many juice vendor threads there are on ECF, but I don't go into them without having tried their juice and begin to bash them. If it's good I'll say so and if it's bad I'll email them. Frankly I don't see your point unless you are a customer of Five Pawns. I would have the issue with them.
If Diketones taste like pure chemical nastiness then I doubt Five Pawns is overflowing with them.
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