Cold maceration of tobacco

[johni]

Thanks all for the responses. I'll stick with 4 weeks on my next one using the same method. A family member is still firing them up rolling her own so I'm going to get some of her tobacco and give it a shot, who knows might be the thing that finally gets her to give vaping a real shot...fingers crossed, nothing I've tried before has.

MikeNice81:
Most times I get it from Wizzard Labs but I've used Amazon depending on what else I needed at the time and get the best price.

Sorry I missed your question earlier.

Like Paul answered, I've sampled along the way during extraction and felt like I didn't really get the best flavor til 30 days or so. I'm experimenting with longer soaks to see if there is any advantage. I'm hoping for a little cleaner, brighter, more nuanced flavor and I am very well supplied currently so I can wait! I know some vendors soak longer (60 days) so we'll see.

Glad you've had some success extracting and good luck with your family member.

 

[Ian444]

I'm starting to think that for pipe tobacco, the more complex the blend, or the more added flavorings, the longer the maceration time needs to be. The use of PGA in PG massively reduces the time required for a cold (or hot) maceration, but I'm waiting for some mixes to steep to form an opinion on flavor.

 

[billherbst]

Here's my final report on the experiment with Rocky Patel cigars to compare PG/VG heat-assisted macerations against all-PGA cold macerations.

In a nutshell, the two PGA macerations were a complete bust.

I filtered both solvents today after a two-week steep in the their respective sealed maceration jars, yielding about 50ml of "extract" from each macerated suspension. Both liquids were a suspicious color, a pale but nasty off-green. To say that the liquids looked like pond slime would be putting it too strongly, but the color was not encouraging. On top of this, they smelled bad. Nothing like cigars. Heck, nothing like any smell I can describe. Just bad. I got out a pan to evaporate off most of the PGA into a super-concentrate to which I intended to add VG, but thought better of it and put the pan away. Both glasses of liquid were then poured down the drain. No ceremony, no eulogies, just good riddance.

This is anecdotal experience, of course, and drawing general conclusions from it would be risky, but it does confirm for me personally that I probably won't use PGA as a solvent in my macerations from this point on, at least not any time soon.

Did I let the macerations go too long? I don't know. At both the 5-day and 10-day marks, each of the two liquids failed the color and sniff tests. They were still almost clear and had no smell (other than alcohol). I doubt that they would have made good extract. Then they "turned" and got putrid over the last four days. Perhaps two weeks is past the "sell by" date. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have been good earlier, however, so it's basically a moot point. Is this failure telling about PGA macerations of cigars versus pipe tobaccos? Perhaps, but again, I don't know if that conclusion is warranted. All I can say for sure is that these particular macerations didn't work out.

I've always been happy with my PG/VG macerations---they make very tasty extract---so this is no great loss, other than the fact that I've got half a liter of Everclear left for which I have no apparent use. Even the sacrifice of two Rocky Patel half-cigars is no big deal, because the two PG/VG heat-assisted macerations using the other halves turned out OK. No, they're not as spectacular as my Rocky Patel Vintage 1990 Churchill Maduro extract, but I wouldn't expect to duplicate that stunning result every time out.

Of the four all-PGA macerations I've tried (two pipe blends and the two cigars), Milan Sultan's Blend was pretty good, H&H Magnum Opus didn't thrill me, and the two Rocky Patels failed to make the cut. Not what we'd call an impressive track record.

I'll leave PGA macerations to other intrepid home extractors who choose that solvent. Maybe they'll have better luck.

 

[farisjc]

Thank you all for your help with cold maceration. I've recently finished filtering my first batches, and although I they only steeped 2.5 weeks, I'm happy with the results. On many days they were in full sunlight, so I think the sun-tea method helped. Filtering took longer than expected. It was done leisurely over a 24-hour period, so its not an issue. We have a great local tobacco shop here in Harvard square (Leavitt & Pierce, est. 1883!) and they create their own pipe and RYO blends which I intend to extract in the coming months. I'm a real happy vaper right now and its all thanks to the people in this thread.

How do you guys store your extracts? Room temperature in a dark place? Fridge? Will the extracts lose or gain flavor with time? I know Ahlusion's aros are supposed to get weaker with time, but MVJ's NETs are said to benefit from steeping. So what about home-brewed NETs?

 

[Bunnykiller]

interesting... since I prefer the PGA method I will try a cigar in a 2 week steep but with a "coffie filter" lid instead of making it air tight.... wondering if the air tight condition allowed for some type of degrading of the tobacco to occur. Both of my previous cigar extracts took on a "green/chlorophyl" flavor which seemed to level off in time ( 2-3 weeks) but was still noticeable. The latest cigar extract in PGA has the taste of what the unlit cigar smells like. Also would like to try "toasting" a portion of the tobacco and see if that would add a smokyness to the extract....

 

[Str8vision]

How do you guys store your extracts? Room temperature in a dark place? Fridge? Will the extracts lose or gain flavor with time? I know Ahlusion's aros are supposed to get weaker with time, but MVJ's NETs are said to benefit from steeping. So what about home-brewed NETs?

I store extracts in dark tinted glass bottles at room temperature. Most extracts improve with age/steeping or at least that has been my experience.

 

[billherbst]

My experience has been that almost all natural tobacco extracts produced from simple-soak PG/VG macerations improve with steeping. I've not added additional flavoring infusions to any of my macerations to this point, and I can say with certainty that the tobacco flavors in the blend I've extracted strengthen and become more present over time, while some of the cased or topped non-tobacco flavorings diminish somewhat. These other flavors haven't vanished, but they are less vibrant and center-stage than when the extract was fresh.

I began home-extracting earlier than many thread participants did. The oldest of my 40 tobacco extracts, made in March and June of 2013, are now more than a year old. I have noticed a subtle "flattening" of the overall flavor profile of these extracts and juices made from them, meaning that they are no longer as bright as they were six months ago. This makes me think that the shelf life of PG/VG macerated extracts is probably not infinite.

Those more-than-a-year-old extracts are still good---in fact, they remain even now better than they were fresh, when the tobacco element hadn't had time to mature and intensify---but I think a gradual diminishment of overall flavor may be likely to occur over the next year or two, as treble notes fade and bass notes come to predominate.

I can imagine a point in the future where I might throw out whatever remains of some extracts that pass the two-year mark. My guess is that the life-span of different extracts will vary, perhaps dramatically. Certain extracts might make tasty eliquid even after four or five years, while others may expire after a year.

I store all my extracts in clear Boston glass dropper bottles, but keep them in the large drawer of a closed cabinet where they're not exposed to light.

 

[billherbst]

interesting... since I prefer the PGA method I will try a cigar in a 2 week steep but with a "coffie filter" lid instead of making it air tight.... wondering if the air tight condition allowed for some type of degrading of the tobacco to occur. Both of my previous cigar extracts took on a "green/chlorophyl" flavor which seemed to level off in time ( 2-3 weeks) but was still noticeable. The latest cigar extract in PGA has the taste of what the unlit cigar smells like. Also would like to try "toasting" a portion of the tobacco and see if that would add a smokyness to the extract....

Bunny,

I can't say with any certainty why my two all-PGA cigar extractions turned out badly. Perhaps having them on the kitchen windowsill exposed to periodic sunlight heated up the maceration even to degrade the plant material, implying that keeping them in darkness might have been better. Or maybe having the maceration jars sealed for two weeks had a deleterious effect, as you speculate. I just don't know.

Since you like PGA-based macerations, I wish you luck and skill in discovering the best methods that work to produce great extract.

 

[Str8vision]

I'm starting to think that for pipe tobacco, the more complex the blend, or the more added flavorings, the longer the maceration time needs to be. The use of PGA in PG massively reduces the time required for a cold (or hot) maceration, but I'm waiting for some mixes to steep to form an opinion on flavor.

I think that while different tobacco types provide uniquely different tastes, even more important to flavor is the curing process and casings used by the individual tobacco companies. To me, the Latakia found in Dunhill's blends tastes quite different than the Latakia Hearth & Home and other blending companies use in their lines. Same with the Virginia's, Burley's, Perique's etc.. each company's offerings seem to be somewhat unique.

I really like using PGA/PG solvent blends for short duration cold pipe tobacco macerations as well. Clean, fast and with the additional flavor nuances that PGA extracts. The speed of the process allows me to sample many new pipe tobacco blends in a very short period of time. I'm still experimenting to find the optimal PGA/PG ratio. For pipe blends I find "tasty" I intend to experiment with a long term cold PG/PGA maceration process using only enough PGA to extract the addition flavor notes during the extended soak time.

 

[MikeNice81]

I'm starting my first soaks next week. So, I had a question, has anybody tried a hybrid soak using heat and room temperature methods? How did it turn out?

I'm thinking of starting with a three hour warm bath and then moving over to a four week soak for the pipe tobacco. The cigar will get an extra week at room temperature. This will be a purely PG soak since it is my first one.

 

[billherbst]

I'm starting my first soaks next week. So, I had a question, has anybody tried a hybrid soak using heat and room temperature methods? How did it turn out?

I'm thinking of starting with a three hour warm bath and then moving over to a four week soak for the pipe tobacco. The cigar will get an extra week at room temperature. This will be a purely PG soak since it is my first one.

I haven't done that, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work. I'll bet that someone on this or the other extraction threads has done it, but if not, then you can lead the way.

 

[Str8vision]

I'm starting my first soaks next week. So, I had a question, has anybody tried a hybrid soak using heat and room temperature methods? How did it turn out?

I'm thinking of starting with a three hour warm bath and then moving over to a four week soak for the pipe tobacco. The cigar will get an extra week at room temperature. This will be a purely PG soak since it is my first one.

I've read posts from several people who mixed heat and cold cycles (in various ways), and reported being happy with the results. I've not personally done so but can see where the initial heating cycle might expedite the solvents penetration into the tobacco speeding the process up a bit. There doesn't appear to be any steadfast rules in the art of tobacco flavor extraction as cold, heat assisted, PG/VG/PGA all can produce tasty extracts. For me, half the fun is experimenting with various methods and tobaccos, it's become a hobby I really enjoy. That's why I love this sub-forum, so many people using so many different tobaccos and extraction methods, it contains a wealth of information and some of it is quite good. Personally, my limited experience with cigars has been they are a bit more difficult to extract flavor from compared to pipe tobacco. For cigars, my best tasting results came from 100 hour heat assisted (130F-140F), PG macerations. Give your idea a whirl and let everyone know how it turns out.

 

[Ian444]

Last night I put together two small cold macerations using 85% PG and 15% PGA as solvent. I plan on soaking for one week. I don't think I will need to reduce the PGA content, so I'm hoping to just filter it once and be good to go. The PGA pulls color from the tobacco in about 5 minutes, it makes me wonder what the color actually consists of.

 

[regal55]

Last night I put together two small cold macerations using 85% PG and 15% PGA as solvent. I plan on soaking for one week. I don't think I will need to reduce the PGA content, so I'm hoping to just filter it once and be good to go. The PGA pulls color from the tobacco in about 5 minutes, it makes me wonder what the color actually consists of.

Tannins.......

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

At 25% extract I'm getting something like grass mixed with peanuts, the flavor is dense full and has a depth that defies description. Mind you this is not a cigar extraction but a single tobacco plant extraction strain KY21.

Steep longer, ditch the batch, try a lower or higher percentage?

Throw me a bone guys and gals.

I'm not hugely liking the flavor here, but my lord is it completely different than anything else. I think someone would love this, maybe a cow or an elephant, but I'm not.

Again, the flavor density is profoundly superior to any vape I've had, it is smooth, kind of earthy, thick. I'm not sure what quality reminds me of peanuts or peanut butter but it seems almost as if a combination of raw and roasted peanuts are in my mouth after the exhale.

I suppose, on further thought, the tastevreminds me of the wet end of a cigar if you've ever just kind of held one in your mouth for a while.

I'm not sure what to do with it. What to think. Or anything for that matter.

I respect the density of flavor, that quality in and of itself is fantastic. The grassyness though I can't abide by if it is par for the course.

Did I mess up or is the grassy flavor a predominant quality of this method?

I know this is not well assembled, I'm simply sitting on my porch vaping a test batch (1ml) to note what I think at this point. The more I think about it, this juice is exactly like the flavor of a cigar wrapper that's wet from holding in your mouth. I'm just getting the flavor on the exhale and not directly. On the inhale...there is a similar but muted taste, this is more the warm peanut experience. I'm getting the most grassy flavor at the transition between inhale and exhale.

Device is a G22 mini at 0.75 ohms stainless steel 400 mesh wick properly built for a very clean flavor representation, mod is a clone nemesis running an 18650 vtc4. 50:50 VGG 6mg/ml.

Maurice

 

[billherbst]

At 25% extract I'm getting something like grass mixed with peanuts, the flavor is dense full and has a depth that defies description. Mind you this is not a cigar extraction but a single tobacco plant extraction strain KY21.

Steep longer, ditch the batch, try a lower or higher percentage?

Throw me a bone guys and gals.

I'm not hugely liking the flavor here, but my lord is it completely different than anything else. I think someone would love this, maybe a cow or an elephant, but I'm not.

Again, the flavor density is profoundly superior to any vape I've had, it is smooth, kind of earthy, thick. I'm not sure what quality reminds me of peanuts or peanut butter but it seems almost as if a combination of raw and roasted peanuts are in my mouth after the exhale.

I suppose, on further thought, the tastevreminds me of the wet end of a cigar if you've ever just kind of held one in your mouth for a while.

I'm not sure what to do with it. What to think. Or anything for that matter.

I respect the density of flavor, that quality in and of itself is fantastic. The grassyness though I can't abide by if it is par for the course.

Did I mess up or is the grassy flavor a predominant quality of this method?

I know this is not well assembled, I'm simply sitting on my porch vaping a test batch (1ml) to note what I think at this point. The more I think about it, this juice is exactly like the flavor of a cigar wrapper that's wet from holding in your mouth. I'm just getting the flavor on the exhale and not directly. On the inhale...there is a similar but muted taste, this is more the warm peanut experience. I'm getting the most grassy flavor at the transition between inhale and exhale.

Maurice,

In reading your post, I got as far as "a single tobacco plant extraction strain KY21," and my sensors red-lined.

I googled "KY21 tobacco" and came up with two companies that sell the seeds for this Kentucky Burley. Are you vaping juice make from leaves of a tobacco plant you grew yourself?

Then I checked your recent forum posts and came up with nothing on the first page that is related to this post, so I don't know how you prepared the tobacco or what extraction method you used.

All that makes it fairly difficult to offer a confident response, but I'll take a shot in the dark: I'm as sure as I can be that your delivery hardware is not the culprit. The unpleasant flavor you describe---grassy, but not in a good way, more like wet cigar wrapper---sounds suspiciously like extract made from uncured, uncased tobacco. If that's true, then we need go no further in diagnosing the problem. Throw out the juice and the extract, and buy some good retail tobacco to extract. Doesn't really matter what kind. Any decent pipe blend or RYO tobacco will do. Proper curing and light casing will make all the difference in the world.

 

[Bunnykiller]

Since there seems to be several people here doing PG extracting, what is the extracts characteristics after filtering? Color, transparent/opaque? Ability to gunk up a coil, quick/slow? Flavor density, mild/heavy? Which type of tobacco lends to being the better at flavor reproduction?

I do like the VG for flavor, but the color density is extremely dark and trashes out a coil too fast...

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

I used the method outlined in this thread, a month long soak in PG using the KY21 which yes I grew myself and dried. I did not specifically cure the tobacco.

I do think you are correct, and I should try out a pipe blend of some sort.

I'd like to avoid handing any money to the folks who make cigarettes, are there any RYO or pipe blends, even cigar makers that are linked financially to the big cigarette companies.

I will certainly try again. I hope the density of flavor is similar, just not the taste.

Maurice

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Since there seems to be several people here doing PG extracting, what is the extracts characteristics after filtering? Color, transparent/opaque? Ability to gunk up a coil, quick/slow? Flavor density, mild/heavy? Which type of tobacco lends to being the better at flavor reproduction?

I do like the VG for flavor, but the color density is extremely dark and trashes out a coil too fast...

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that each variable is going to contribute to the color clairity and flavor density.

The finer you cut the tobacco the more fines you will introduce to the equation.
The color of the extract after filtering with coffee filters and allowing any remaining particulates to fall out of suspension in my situation is between dark caramel and burnt sugar, translucent more so than clear. At 25% mixture it is honey colored and highly transparent.
Flavor density is very likely a factor of weight of tobacco to volume of dilutant. My extract when mixed at 25% is hugely dense with flavor (though I didn't like it). My ratio of tobacco to PG was fairly high.

Maurice

 

[MikeNice81]

Since there seems to be several people here doing PG extracting, what is the extracts characteristics after filtering? Color, transparent/opaque? Ability to gunk up a coil, quick/slow? Flavor density, mild/heavy? Which type of tobacco lends to being the better at flavor reproduction?

I do like the VG for flavor, but the color density is extremely dark and trashes out a coil too fast...

There are so many variables that it is nearly impossible to answer all the questions. A straight PG soak will look different depending on whether you use pipe tobacco or a cigar. It will change depending on if it is heat soaked or cold soaked. The spectrum runs from motor oil black to sligtly amber or yellow.