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The reason NETs are so gunky and what I do to alleviate the problem

Discussion in 'Liquid Extraction From Tobacco' started by Str8vision, May 3, 2017.

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  1. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    Just as I warned the price on these filters just jumped from $19.57 to $136.70. If/When you do run across a good deal buy them immediately because the price can suddenly fluctuate wildly. Same thing just happened to a 100 pack of 1 micron 12.5cm glass microfiber filters, price went from $39 to $231 overnight. The first time I bought glass microfiber filters I only bought 100 and got them for $25. Once I decided they were my filter of choice the same 100 pack cost $125 so I waited and periodically shopped them waiting for another good deal. Eighteen months later I found them for under $20 per hundred and bought enough to last a lifetime.
     
  2. Upinsmoke

    Upinsmoke Full Member

    Aug 2, 2017
    Suffolk UK
    Price of some of these filters is a joke.
    Lack of competition in the market is a sellers dream.
    Just tried an extraction of Golden Virginia in VG.
    Thought I would be able to pull the extraction through a 2 micron paper with vacuum flask.
    Not having much luck.
    I had an electric vacuum pump from a milking machine. Hadn't used it in years so I sold it. Wish I hadn't.
    I wanted to try a PGA free extraction.
    I feel something is lost in the alcohol.
    Not much use if you can't filter the juice.
    With a cold soak I can filter VG.
    Hot soak 75°C for 6 hours broke down the plant material too much.
    Gunks up my wick way too quick.
    Good flavour for about the first 2mls.
    The previous extraction of Dunhill Nightcap was interesting.
    At first it was like being down wind of an autumn bonfire.
    After about a week it settled down.
    It was a sad day when I finished the last of it last week.
    Time to order more.
    Ever tried Condor ?
     
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  3. Equality 7-2521

    Equality 7-2521 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 29, 2013
    oakland ca.
    In my experince PGA extraction was very clean.but the flavor seemed to fade quickly wasn't as robust.
     
  4. Island Vapor

    Island Vapor Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 15, 2011
    Bahamas/ Florida
    Str8vision how has the flavor been for you with the PGA extracts?Upinsmoke found they faded?
    With me being the Bahamas I am still waiting on my tobacco but I should have it on island this week and start my extractions.Hope everyone is having a great weekend AJ
     
  5. Upinsmoke

    Upinsmoke Full Member

    Aug 2, 2017
    Suffolk UK
    I didn't say PGA extraction fades. I just find some of the flavour is lost in this method.
    Each method has its drawbacks but overall I would concur with Str8vision that his heated PGA soak method is good .
    The flavour of my VG soak is nice, warm and well rounded. I just can't filter it to the level I would like .
    Maybe I should invest in a centrifuge.
    I was talking to a lad who works for a food favouring company, they use a reverse osmosis high pressure system .
    Don't think I can run to that.
     
  6. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    Personally, I've extracted tobacco using every known solvent (except CO2) and haven't noticed diminishing flavor from any of them. Each extraction solvent pulls different flavor characteristics from the tobacco resulting in vastly different tasting NET derived from the same tobacco. Ethanol is a much more difficult and expensive solvent, I only like/use it for hot extractions and the temperature of the extraction -must- be accurate to achieve optimum results. Of all the solvents I've used ethanol is my favorite. I like the accurate flavor it can provide but its main benefit is that it can be freeze filtered which yields a much cleaner, higher performing NET. It's the only solvent that can be freeze filtered to remove some of the unwanted muck that makes NETs so gunky.

    I have noticed that after vaping a single flavor for an extended period of time I lose the ability to taste that flavor, but this happen to me with any juice, NETs and/or synthetic. Vanilla (my favorite) is the worst, I lose the ability to taste it after a single tankful. For NET Latakia is a problem for me, I lose the ability to taste it after a day or two. The flavor is still there I just lose the ability to taste it. I switch to vaping a VaPer (Virginia, Perique NET) and after a day or two I can vape Latakia and taste it again. I learned long ago that rotating different flavors throughout the week prevents this flavor burnout. That's why I started the thread Best tobacco for flavor extraction I was searching for at least a dozen different tobaccos to provide variety.
     
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  7. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    Before finding ethanol my favorite solvent for flavor was a VG/PG blend. Unfortunately, any amount of VG requires vacuum filtration. After your flavor extraction is complete have you tried adding PG to thin the VG extract before vacuum filtering it? In cooler weather warming the extract before and during filtering helps to lower its viscosity which speeds filtering considerably. The warmer it is the lower its viscosity and the faster/easier it will filter under vacuum.

    For high viscosity solvents (like VG) in addition to heat, vacuum filtration is instrumental. I had a large HVAC pump but it's far too noisy to use inside the house. I'm too lazy to use a hand pump so I built my own mini-pump. I started by buying this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DYA21PU/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AFBMYHRQ9KU5H I mounted it on a thick rubber pad to reduce vibration, wired a toggle switch inline and used a 2 amp 12vdc wall transformer I had on hand to power it. Even though it's small it's still noisy but nowhere near as offensive as my big pump. This little 12vdc pump can pull 19" of mercury, worked like a charm for filtering but that was on 70/30 PG/VG blended solvent. Don't remember ever trying it with pure VG, might be too thick for this little pump.
     
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  8. Upinsmoke

    Upinsmoke Full Member

    Aug 2, 2017
    Suffolk UK
    Totally agree with you .
    It's not the flavour fading but one's taste buds failing to decipher the aroma .
    As you say , leave it alone for a few days and like magic its back.
    How professional tasters manage to taste wine or tea all day is beyond me.
    I did try heating my VG extraction , no dice. Not a fan of PG, I did consider adding PGA to aid filtration then evaporating off the alcohol.
    If I mix my juice with only a little of the extraction it is ok.
    Back to the PGA for my next batch.
    A fairly mild English tobacco called Gold Block.
    Never tried Perique . I'll have to give it a try .

    Back when I used to set fire to my tobacco I was not really interested in the many complex flavours that are available.
    In my youth I recall trying many different tobaccos but for years just stuck the same old cigarettes in my mouth.
    Did your interest follow a similar path ?
    Pipe smokers often have a rotation of tobaccos.
    I have always intended to have more than one NET at a time but only get round to making the new batch as the old one starts to run out .
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
     
  9. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    A little 190 proof PGA would thin the VG enough to expedite low vacuum filtration, a little extra PGA might even allow gravity flow filtering while adding an equal amount of PGA (50/50 PGA/VG) would allow the extract to be freeze filtered. The downside is; once mixed with VG the ethanol is more difficult to evaporate off. The 6% water content in 190 proof ethanol won't evaporate, VG being hygroscopic will readily absorb it.

    I use to smoke cigarettes when on the go and out of pocket but preferred a pipe at all other times. I always had at least a half dozen pipe tobaccos on-hand and kept a pound or two of my favorite, Lane 1Q. With smoking my taste preference didn't change over the years, stayed pretty much the same. My favorite pipe blends didn't translate well into vape form with the exception of Dunhill "Nightcap", my late evening smoke. For making NETs I had to start from scratch sampling many different blends to find those that would produce a tasty and robust extract, most didn't suit me.

    With vaping, my taste preference has changed over time. When I first started vaping NETs I preferred to make hybrids (NET mixed with secondary flavorings) and sweetened them with sucralose. As years went by I quit using sweetener and eventually even cut back on the amount of VG I used to further reduce sweetness. Now I just vape straight NET and can't stand any sweetness at all. I've even grown fond of Latakia heavy blends because I enjoy the smoky, pungent flavor they provide. I would never have smoked what I currently enjoy vaping, but I don't mind this. It makes vaping more interesting and provides the incentive to continue exploring new tobaccos.
     
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  10. Boscovlle

    Boscovlle New Member

    Feb 14, 2018
    This is my NET, s in the freezer. The amount of gunk on the bottom would be a part of your liquid if you do not cold filter. I just siphon of the top after a week in the freezer. 20180214_000747.jpg
     
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  11. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    Muck, the notorious enemy of wicks and coils everywhere soon to be casually discarded in the trash bin. :) Looks great, you're well on the way to enjoying clean NET.
     
  12. Boscovlle

    Boscovlle New Member

    Feb 14, 2018
    You're right:). This is within the first 24 hours. With this method I rewick ALOT less.
     
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  13. Island Vapor

    Island Vapor Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 15, 2011
    Bahamas/ Florida
    Ok I got 8 new tobacco flavors in my crock pot and it does stay at 160 on warm.
    After it goes through the 12 hour cycle.Let is cool down to room temp and put in the freezer for 3 days.I got my chest freezer to -15.Pull out and filter with a coffee filter.Then let the alcohol evaporate ( How long does it take to evaporate?) Then put back in to the freezer ( for how long?) Then take out and filter through a 1 micron filter.
    Am I on the right path? Thanks for the help everyone
    Also what is a good place to start when mixing 10%?
     
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  14. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    Here's a brief description of the process from start to finish;

    Prepare a hot bath with water temperature set between 160F and 170F. Ethanol boils at 173F so try to keep the temperature below the boiling point.

    Place shredded tobacco in a glass canning jar, pour in enough 190 proof PGA (ethanol) to completely cover the tobacco then add about 25% more. Lightly seal the jar (not too tight) and place it in the hot water bath, add enough warm water to the bath to match the level of ethanol inside the jar. Once the water temperature returns to 160F, process for 12 hours. Check periodically and add water to the bath as needed. After 12 hours have elapsed turn the heat off and let everything cool to room temperature. (NOTE: For an even deeper flavor extraction, seal the jar tightly and let it sit at room temperature for a few weeks before proceeding to the next step.)

    Put a coffee filter inside a funnel and place the funnel in a clean glass jar. Pour the ethanol (now an extract) into the filter and wait for it to flow through before dumping the tobacco in. Once the tobacco has been dumped in and all loose solvent has filtered through carefully begin gathering/folding the edges of the coffee filter together to encapsulate the tobacco inside. In the palm of your hand, gently squeeze the encapsulated tobacco to release/recover as much extract as possible, slowly increase the squeezing pressure being careful not to rupture the filter. Discard the tobacco and filter. Seal the jar and place it in a freezer for 48 hours. Ethanol won't freeze, it just gets cold. While in the freezer some of the undesirable elements pulled from the tobacco during the extraction process will precipitate out of solution and coalesce in the bottom of the jar.

    Put a coffee filter inside a funnel and place the funnel in a clean glass jar. Place this "filtering setup" in the freezer and allow it to get cold. Retrieve the extract from the freezer and carefully pour it into the coffee filter, if possible allow the filtering to take place inside the freezer so everything stays cold. Once the extract has filtered through, discard the coffee filter. Seal the extract and allow it to warm to room temperature. Remove the lid and allow 70% of the ethanol to evaporate off, this can take a day or longer depending on the amount of extract being reduced. (NOTE: setting the open jar in front of a small fan will help speed evaporation. Pouring the extract into a wide shallow container also helps.) Once reduced your extract can be filtered to whatever level you prefer, I recommend 3 micron filtration or better.

    Mix the reduced extract at 7% to 12% strength. After mixing, allow time for the ethanol to evaporate from your mixed NET. Now you're ready to sample it, but remember that properly aging a mixed NET always improves its flavor. Enjoy!
     
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  15. Island Vapor

    Island Vapor Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 15, 2011
    Bahamas/ Florida
    Thanks for the info.They are out of the .... pot and steeping.Had any one tried to speed the steeping up by placing the jars in a ultrasonic cleaner with the tobacco still in the PGA after the 12 crock pot?
     
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  16. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    Not that I'm aware of. Sounds like an interesting experiment. :)
     
  17. Island Vapor

    Island Vapor Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 15, 2011
    Bahamas/ Florida
    I did one for 30 minutes tonight and going to do 3 more 30 minute cycles.
    I am going to do a new batch of the same tobacco tomorrow and let it steep for 2 weeks and try the ultrasonic one in a day or two and compare them.I guess I will find out.
     
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  18. Boscovlle

    Boscovlle New Member

    Feb 14, 2018
    I bought 4 new tobaccos from my local tobacco shop to try, They're in the cooker now. I'll keep everyone posted on how it turns out. Im doing a 190 Ethanol soak.
     

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  19. Equality 7-2521

    Equality 7-2521 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 29, 2013
    oakland ca.
    why don't you add some PG or VG to the extract then heat the extract up and try and evaporate all the ethanol out.
     
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  20. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    You can but the ethanol becomes more difficult to evaporate off once it's mixed with VG or PG. Warming the extract during reduction greatly speeds the evaporation process but the temperature should never exceed ~140F or flavor will suffer (it's very fragile at this stage). For heat assisted reduction I strongly recommend the use of a temperature controller set between 120F - 130F, air circulation (a small fan) is still advantageous. 250ml of extract placed in a wide, shallow container (like a baking dish) heated to 120F with a fan blowing across its surface will reduce by 70% in less than an hour.

    In fact if 190 proof ethanol is extremely expensive or difficult to obtain where you live, a 70/30 PGA/VG solvent can be used for the extraction process. A 70/30 PGA/VG extract can still be freeze filtered. PG also works, or any combination of PG/VG. The PGA must still be 190 proof (95% ethanol). There are considerations to be aware of when using a blended solvent but I won't go into detail on this thread, a better topic for discussion here; Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol
     

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