Cold Steel Mod: Bad vaping experience - can’t figure why
- Thread starter BaronHarkonnen
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We get around that problem with the totally awesome Replay mode on the DNA.
Nothing better than screwing on a tank, setting your desired wattage, vape it then and hit save. Doesn't matter if it's SS316L, SS430, NiFe 52, ni200 or Ti as long as it's a TC wire all is good.
I Likes It!!!!
Agree!!!! Replay is awesome!
To explain to those who may not be familiar with Reply. Replay does not use a goal temperature, instead it mimics the resistance curve that the user saves, and replays that curve every time you vape. TCR values are not needed.
We are so different. I thought I would love replay but found I got bored with the exact same flavor hit after hit. Probably why I never got into tc much. I enjoy the variations I get in wattage.We get around that problem with the totally awesome Replay mode on the DNA.
Nothing better than screwing on a tank, setting your desired wattage, vape it then and hit save. Doesn't matter if it's SS316L, SS430, NiFe 52, ni200 or Ti as long as it's a TC wire all is good.
I Likes It!!!!
I only use it for RDAs as my laziness carries over to dripping/squonking.
Variations do make vaping interesting, I run a lot of tanks in VW mode too.
Excellent point.
Even though Replay is simple to setup in comparison to TC, it does not allow adjustment of applied wattage once a preferred vape has been saved. The circuitry takes over and applies what ever wattage is needed to replay your saved vape.
So if someone is looking for a little variance, perhaps a little warmer/cooler vape, Replay does have to be reset and saved again once you find that vape you are looking for.
Good question but do not think that is the OP’s problem. Using higher than normal power means your coil will hit its goal resistance, thus temperature quicker and the device will throttle back the power as needed. The OP is not getting any vape at all, which eludes that his coil is hitting the goal resistance long before it is reaching the needed temperature to vape. Carbon buildup on the coil can cause this. Too much carbon buildup can cause all kinds of issues, even in wattage mode for the coil resistance is all over the place!
An incorrect TCR value can also cause this. Or the device just is a poor performer with TC.
Setting a high pre-heat or high wattage can be beneficial for it can guarantee (to a degree) that the coil will hit its target resistance should other influences such as a drop in ambient temperature become a factor.
thanks for the elavortion. so it won't a) try to achieve the wattage even if it overshoots the tempaerature or b) calculate that it would overshoot the temperature and prevent firing?
edit: oops! how did elaboration evolve two hundred years into elavortion?? i'm not deleting that
Blame speel chek
Wattage is not part of the calculation. Based on the TCR value and set temperature, a goal resistance is calculated. The device will apply power up to what the user has set until that goal resistance is met where it will scale back power and modulate it in order to maintain that goal resistance.
Just watched the video – hate login into YT to watch restricted content. But @BaronHarkonnen fires the device and you can see that power is being modulated around 20 to 30 watts. He confirms this works and states he enjoys the vape. But when firing again, power is at 10 to 15 watts and the temperature is below what he has set. This leads me to believe the resistance of the coil has met the criteria before achieving the goal temperature and the device is trying to maintain it. Not only does carbon buildup effect resistance, but it can also act like an insulator of sort. I’m sure I am not alone when vaping a gunked coil resulted in a poor vape in terms of both quality and quantity.
Changing the temperature calculates a new goal resistance, so the device is now applying power to try and meet it. If continued to use at 300°C, I am willing to bet the problem would arise again
@BaronHarkonnen if using a new/clean coil, does the device work to your liking and if so, for how long. And when the device starts acting up, what state is the coil in?
Also – if you remove the resistance lock, does the device show the live resistance while vaping? Meaning, when pressing the fire button can you see the resistance increase with heat? If you are able to view this, document the resistance and see if it returns to your room temperature resistance.
Wattage is not part of the calculation. Based on the TCR value and set temperature, a goal resistance is calculated. The device will apply power up to what the user has set until that goal resistance is met where it will scale back power and modulate it in order to maintain that goal resistance.
Just watched the video – hate login into YT to watch restricted content. But @BaronHarkonnen fires the device and you can see that power is being modulated around 20 to 30 watts. He confirms this works and states he enjoys the vape. But when firing again, power is at 10 to 15 watts and the temperature is below what he has set. This leads me to believe the resistance of the coil has met the criteria before achieving the goal temperature and the device is trying to maintain it. Not only does carbon buildup effect resistance, but it can also act like an insulator of sort. I’m sure I am not alone when vaping a gunked coil resulted in a poor vape in terms of both quality and quantity.
Changing the temperature calculates a new goal resistance, so the device is now applying power to try and meet it. If continued to use at 300°C, I am willing to bet the problem would arise again
@BaronHarkonnen if using a new/clean coil, does the device work to your liking and if so, for how long. And when the device starts acting up, what state is the coil in?
Also – if you remove the resistance lock, does the device show the live resistance while vaping? Meaning, when pressing the fire button can you see the resistance increase with heat? If you are able to view this, document the resistance and see if it returns to your room temperature resistance.
In all honesty its erratic - its like almost random chance - maybe about 60% in my favor for success:
sometimes, when using new coil, it works (not perfectly, but accptable). usually the device starts to act up the next day. if im lucky - 2 days.
sometimes - it acts up right from the start.
i could not find any correlation - with anything. i try same strategy for some time (wicking, coil sizes, coil materials) and stick by it, after some time - i change something to see how it goes and stick by new strategy for a while. so far though, nothing really solved my problem - i had ok vape for a day with 4mm coil, i had good vape for a day with 2mm coil. i even had ok vape with regular cotton (if I were lucky). and i had it the other way around when nothing works right from the start.
the only 'trick' i found that kinda works is flooding the tank. leave juice holes basically unobstructed and let it flood the coil. this way, sometimes it works, for maybe 3 days. the downside is atty is leaking all over the place. also - it does not work all the time as well (if it was an RPG game i would say flooding ads only about +15% chance of success).
just yesterday evening i installed new coil again, this time i went with SS316L geek vape 26awg, so i could vape in VW and Temp.
i found some light juice, its translucent, almost no color.
ive attached picture how the coil looks. the coil is already black, but to be honest, as far as i remember i always had black coils right from the start. before i started making spaced coils i was pre-heating the coils, and that would turn them black right away. now with spaced coils as you can see it took one evening to turn them black.
What do you think? is this level of gunking out of the ordinary?
i did not use TC yesterday evening, i used just VW with slight curve (boost on first 0.3 seconds), 27w.
today morning i tried to use TC - its was struggling. temp was set to 315ºC\600ºF - otherwise it would not work.
now its noon - and TC stopped working again, W reading is 0.5w. that's the max it can go. VW works fine still.
regarding the reading (unlocked resistance):
current SS316L coil.
in VW base resistance reading is 0.6 ohm.
in TC it reads base resistance as 0.5 ohm.
as i vape in TC resistance rises up to 0.62 ohm @315ºC\600F.
btw, when i switch from VW to TC, i do wait for the coils to cool, because my mod will read resistance again when the mode is switched. so if i vaped in VW, and switch to TC, my initial base resistance would be wrong. i'm aware of that (though its a nice trick to get TC going when it struggles, problem off cores that its basically cheating and defeats the whole purpose of TC). anyway, i wait for coil to cool down.
I'm using default TCR setting (i select SS from the menu). when it works its fine. i tried TCR 0.000100 before, but its not right, it would burn the wick eventually, so i think default setting is good enough.
P.S.
I hope so much that my mod is the problem...otherwise i have no clue no more what is the problem...
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Update - just to prove my point - TC started to work again (limping, but vapable for now):
at the time of posting previous post i unscrewed the housing to take a picture of the coil, without taking atty off the mod, without switching it off, or changing modes. i haven't touched anything.
after i finished with writing, i put the housing back on.
that's it.
i did not physically touch the coils, or the wick.
all the reading are exact same. R-0.5 ohm at rest, 0.62 when vaping. temp set to max 315C.
...
at the time of posting previous post i unscrewed the housing to take a picture of the coil, without taking atty off the mod, without switching it off, or changing modes. i haven't touched anything.
after i finished with writing, i put the housing back on.
that's it.
i did not physically touch the coils, or the wick.
all the reading are exact same. R-0.5 ohm at rest, 0.62 when vaping. temp set to max 315C.
...
Looks like your juice is very sweet to have the coil caramelize that fast. Might try leaving a thicker shoulder and tails on your wick to help with flooding.
if that helps i can list the juices i use:
Ripe Vapes VCT (more sweet)
Diamond Cut Route 55 (less sweet, closer to natural tobaco)
I have couple of juices that are very sweet, they are almost black in color to start with, but i usually don't vape them, i just keep them and occasionally vape them when i'm out of my regular stuff.
the juice i used today specifically is Cali Cooler Double apple. its sour-sweet..well its apple, the liquid though is clear almost like water.
regarding the flooding - i know how to prevent flooding, what i meant is that I induced flooding intentionally as a strategy because it seemed TC worked better that way. its was just a means to an end in my situation. a trick i found. (yet again it was not 100% success - just marginally better).
current wick setup (from yesterday) is not flooding. i built it properly. its not leaking either.
but, then again my TC does not work well.
i do tend to believe that my TC (the mod) is just bad.
basically at this point i'm waiting for someone here to confirm that my mod is likely the cause of the problem.
i'm already on a lookout for DNA mod. if DNA mod won't solve my problem, at least that would rule out the mod. (its really such an inconvenience for me right now ordering yet again new mod... but, i don't think i have a choice really).
unless off cores someone spots problem else where.
It could be the mod or your settings. Either way DNA is going to be a welcome upgrade. If you can forgo replay you can find some good deals on the 200 and 75 dna devices. A cheaper rout would to be buy a device compatible with arctic fox firmware.
Good luck solving your problem.
The thing i cant understand with your atty is how the coils seemed burned and not really gunked up, it looks the same with your wick in your coils it looks burned and not gunked ... I had a burned problem with my revolver and aliens were the coils just burn up so i just stopped using aliens and stick to fused claptons.
But going to say this again your coils looks burned and not gunked, it's just how it looks to me.
If your coils look like this in one day the problem is else where, don't you have another tank to try before you go splash out money ? Or another mod ? Not even with jam monster or loaded juice will coils be that black in a day.
The thing i cant understand with your atty is how the coils seemed burned and not really gunked up, it looks the same with your wick in your coils it looks burned and not gunked ... I had a burned problem with my revolver and aliens were the coils just burn up so i just stopped using aliens and stick to fused claptons.
But going to say this again your coils looks burned and not gunked, it's just how it looks to me.
If your coils look like this in one day the problem is else where, don't you have another tank to try before you go splash out money ? Or another mod ? Not even with jam monster or loaded juice will coils be that black in a day.
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The main advantage to a DNA mod is the eScribe software. There's another open source software package, Arctic Fox, that works similarly for eLeaf/Wismec products as well. With these you can see a graph in real time of the power/wattage, resistance, and temperature of a hit with the settings you used. You can then tweak it the settings to get a set of graphs that yield exactly the hit you want.With eScribe you can take a draw on the mod/atty and watch what happens (usb to your PC). Once dialed in you can save that exact setting as a profile for future use with the same tank and build. Then just select one that matches or comes close to what you're vaping, maybe tweak the temp up or down a little bit, and you're done.
Did you use TCR value 0.0001 or 0.001. These are VASTLY different values. 0.001 would be closer to SS316L true TCR value. I’m also puzzled at the difference in base (cold) resistance between VW and TC. These should be the same. You are positive the coil was read a room temperature? Not that I think this is your problem, but just inconsistent.
0.5 ohms to 0.62 ohms is a significant rise in resistance for a SS316L coil of this resistance. If the device is calculating the correct 315°C temperature, this equates to a TCR value of 0.00082 – that is very low for SS316L. 315°C (if that is the true temperature) is also pretty hot. No comment on preferences, but I can’t vape at that heat.
Personally, I would use a TCR value between 0.00088 and 0.001 for a SS316L coil – pick somewhere in between like 0.0009 and set a goal temperature of 230°C. Use 50ish watts and increase or decrease your temp by 5°C until you find what you prefer. 50 watts should be plenty for a 26awg SS coil. Clean or build a new coil, try this and let us know. Document the live resistance.
Darker juices do tend to gunk coils quicker, but lighter colour juice can also junk coils just as quick – it’s not really dependent on the colour, but the contents of the flavourings used within the juice. None the less, gunking that much within a day is pretty extreme.
Ever consider making your own juices? Admittedly less convenient then buying premade, but it is not difficult to do and so MUCH cheaper in the long run. You have control over what goes into the juice. If flavourings, base and nicotine is available to you, might be something to consider.
++++1 on looking into a DNA device, or at least an Artic Fox compatible device. Shadow @Eskie comment, there are huge benefits from being able to see the performance of your coil plotted in real time.
0.5 ohms to 0.62 ohms is a significant rise in resistance for a SS316L coil of this resistance. If the device is calculating the correct 315°C temperature, this equates to a TCR value of 0.00082 – that is very low for SS316L. 315°C (if that is the true temperature) is also pretty hot. No comment on preferences, but I can’t vape at that heat.
Personally, I would use a TCR value between 0.00088 and 0.001 for a SS316L coil – pick somewhere in between like 0.0009 and set a goal temperature of 230°C. Use 50ish watts and increase or decrease your temp by 5°C until you find what you prefer. 50 watts should be plenty for a 26awg SS coil. Clean or build a new coil, try this and let us know. Document the live resistance.
Darker juices do tend to gunk coils quicker, but lighter colour juice can also junk coils just as quick – it’s not really dependent on the colour, but the contents of the flavourings used within the juice. None the less, gunking that much within a day is pretty extreme.
Ever consider making your own juices? Admittedly less convenient then buying premade, but it is not difficult to do and so MUCH cheaper in the long run. You have control over what goes into the juice. If flavourings, base and nicotine is available to you, might be something to consider.
++++1 on looking into a DNA device, or at least an Artic Fox compatible device. Shadow @Eskie comment, there are huge benefits from being able to see the performance of your coil plotted in real time.
It sucks that you're having this much difficulty with your mod @BaronHarkonnen! I don't have that mod, but I did a little digging through reviews just now to see what other people have found out about it. There is not much information out there on its TC performance, most reviewers vaped it in VW mode and it seems to do that very well.
I saw one Youtube review where the reviewer found that the mod reduced the power to avoid overheating the coil very aggressively. In other words, it reduced the power more than other mods do when the coil gets drier. One text review on Planet of the Vapes included the following description of the reviewers TC experience:
"For the temperature control tests I got out my trusty serpent mini which I'm very familiar with. The cold steel passed the initial tests by not glowing the coil and performed well in the cotton burn test as well so things were looking good. The actual TC experience itself was a little disappointing though. Initially I got virtually no vapour at all using the stock stainless steel setting, manually setting a Tcr value of around 120 gave me the kind of vape I was expecting but the mod seemed to be playing it ultra cautious and cut out very quickly giving an overall poor tcr experience. After a little playing around I found that the mod hadn't got a good cold ohms reading and once I got things locked in correctly things seemed much better with that 120 tcr setting. If you're an exclusively TC vaper then you might want to wait for one of the more technical reviewers like pbusardo or djlsbvapes to give this a once over before hitting the buy button."
So it seems like this mod is a little finicky in TC and the default SS TCR may be off a bit. I vape Pico 75 watt mods a lot but vape in VW mode almost always. They are also finicky in TC mode and do not do it well in general, but they become dependable when I set them up carefully. That means I am careful to have the mod read a cold coil and I lock the resistance once it has done that. I set the mod to 1 watt while I'm setting that up in case I fire the coil for a second while I'm working with it. The other thing I'm careful with that the 510 connection is clean and my atties have the coil tightened down hard and all other connections in them are clean and tight.
That cotton burn test has been a good tool for me over the years specially when I'm getting to know a new TC mod. You may already know how it works, but in case you are not familiar with it it goes something like this:
Cotton starts to singe slightly at close to 420 deg F when it's totally dry. Any liquid on the cotton at all and the test is quite inaccurate. Once I feel I have a good TC setup on the mod I put in clean cotton, in TC mode set the wattage to a bit more than I know the coil needs to get to vaping temperature when it's wet, set the temperature to 350 and fire the coil for 5-8 seconds. If the cotton burns up the temperature obviously went way over the set point. If there is no obvious change to the cotton I slide it sideways a bit to check for singe under the wire. If there is none I put it back on center, raise the temp to say 380 and repeat. Then at 400, 410, 420, etc, until the cotton starts to change color. Whatever temperature you have set when that happens, the mod is outputting very close to 420 deg at the coil. It's a quick and dirty way to check the calibration of your TC system with the complete set up you have at the time.
With my Picos once I have a good resistance locked in I am careful to not allow it to change. Sometimes it will decide I may have changed to a new coil or atty and ask me if it should reset the resistance. I always say no and that works well for me. If it does that a few times in a row I know something is wrong and I have a good look at the atty and 510, clean as required and start over. My DNA mod never has this issue and I do not lock its resistance. The DNA board gives me a noticeably better TC experience also in that it is a stable vape unlike with the cheap Pico board with which I can feel the power fluctuations as the board manipulates the wattage to keep the coil temp steady.
Any fluctuation in resistance in your atty or at the 510 or in the mod will make it impossible to have a stable TC vape experience with any mod.
And that's all I've got. Best of luck with it
Regarding the TCR value - my mistake - my mod has a 3 digit TCR display value - so for me 0.00082 would be just 082, so i might have added a 0 by mistake when i wrote the post.
VW-TC Resistance difference - you are right my mistake again. i did always wait for coil to cool when i switch to TC mode, but i did not do the same when switching from TC to VW, even though i totally should. well, at least we have 1 less mystery to solve, right?
I do have to note though, that on cold, resistance is not exactly consistent still - i can screw on cold atty couple of times, and the resistance will fluctuate within 0.02 ohm each time. (without firing mod in between - its was always cold during the test)
i thought that maybe its the heat from my hands, but sometimes resistance goes down, even though i handled the atty with my hands for some time. maybe its due to the friction?
I played a lot with the atty and the mod yesterday, to see how resistance behaves
I did built a new coil. 0.43ohm (consistent now between TC and VW within 0.02ohm).
I tried stock SS setting, tried TCR 0.0009 - almost no vapor at 240º or even at 315º.
so i raised TCR to 0.00110. it works for the first puff, then no vapor again (unless i go 315º, but that's not for long).
the resistance range was 0.43-0.55 @0.00110 tcr @240º.
I VW for now, since TC still does not work. @25w with boost curve - works just fine! (not giving up on TC - DNA mod still on the list, just saying that in VW my mod at least works).
I attached new picture of the new coil, let me know what you think. it looks black, but not gunked. coil is from yesterday, pic is from right now.
regarding making my own juices - its strange that i'm not doing that already, i'm one of those people who ends up DIY almost everything i come across. the reason i did not do it yet is because as much as i love DIY everything, its also stressful - i need to learn new things, and from my experience - i don't always learn 'the right way' out of the gate. sometime i end up in a mess, so with juices i decided to wait a bit.
I'm considering it though. long run economy would be welcome as well, i'm consuming juices pretty fast imo.
from what i gathered from people who do make their own juices in my country - all ingredients are available (local or online), except nicotine. nicotine requires some kind of permit to purchase.
Attachments
It sucks that you're having this much difficulty with your mod @BaronHarkonnen! I don't have that mod, but I did a little digging through reviews just now to see what other people have found out about it. There is not much information out there on its TC performance, most reviewers vaped it in VW mode and it seems to do that very well.
I saw one Youtube review where the reviewer found that the mod reduced the power to avoid overheating the coil very aggressively. In other words, it reduced the power more than other mods do when the coil gets drier. One text review on Planet of the Vapes included the following description of the reviewers TC experience:
"For the temperature control tests I got out my trusty serpent mini which I'm very familiar with. The cold steel passed the initial tests by not glowing the coil and performed well in the cotton burn test as well so things were looking good. The actual TC experience itself was a little disappointing though. Initially I got virtually no vapour at all using the stock stainless steel setting, manually setting a Tcr value of around 120 gave me the kind of vape I was expecting but the mod seemed to be playing it ultra cautious and cut out very quickly giving an overall poor tcr experience. After a little playing around I found that the mod hadn't got a good cold ohms reading and once I got things locked in correctly things seemed much better with that 120 tcr setting. If you're an exclusively TC vaper then you might want to wait for one of the more technical reviewers like pbusardo or djlsbvapes to give this a once over before hitting the buy button."
So it seems like this mod is a little finicky in TC and the default SS TCR may be off a bit. I vape Pico 75 watt mods a lot but vape in VW mode almost always. They are also finicky in TC mode and do not do it well in general, but they become dependable when I set them up carefully. That means I am careful to have the mod read a cold coil and I lock the resistance once it has done that. I set the mod to 1 watt while I'm setting that up in case I fire the coil for a second while I'm working with it. The other thing I'm careful with that the 510 connection is clean and my atties have the coil tightened down hard and all other connections in them are clean and tight.
That cotton burn test has been a good tool for me over the years specially when I'm getting to know a new TC mod. You may already know how it works, but in case you are not familiar with it it goes something like this:
Cotton starts to singe slightly at close to 420 deg F when it's totally dry. Any liquid on the cotton at all and the test is quite inaccurate. Once I feel I have a good TC setup on the mod I put in clean cotton, in TC mode set the wattage to a bit more than I know the coil needs to get to vaping temperature when it's wet, set the temperature to 350 and fire the coil for 5-8 seconds. If the cotton burns up the temperature obviously went way over the set point. If there is no obvious change to the cotton I slide it sideways a bit to check for singe under the wire. If there is none I put it back on center, raise the temp to say 380 and repeat. Then at 400, 410, 420, etc, until the cotton starts to change color. Whatever temperature you have set when that happens, the mod is outputting very close to 420 deg at the coil. It's a quick and dirty way to check the calibration of your TC system with the complete set up you have at the time.
With my Picos once I have a good resistance locked in I am careful to not allow it to change. Sometimes it will decide I may have changed to a new coil or atty and ask me if it should reset the resistance. I always say no and that works well for me. If it does that a few times in a row I know something is wrong and I have a good look at the atty and 510, clean as required and start over. My DNA mod never has this issue and I do not lock its resistance. The DNA board gives me a noticeably better TC experience also in that it is a stable vape unlike with the cheap Pico board with which I can feel the power fluctuations as the board manipulates the wattage to keep the coil temp steady.
Any fluctuation in resistance in your atty or at the 510 or in the mod will make it impossible to have a stable TC vape experience with any mod.
And that's all I've got. Best of luck with it
You dug quite interesting info there - thanks!
I really hope that my mod is the problem.
I do check connections, clean 510, as well. i tightened the atty connector a while back to rule that out.
i'll try that test with temperature. can i use Rayon wick? or regular wick?
Ehpro unfortunately does not ask me if i want to change resistance - it assumes 'yes' all the time . ehpro sent me a custom firmware that does not change resistance (unless you unscrew\screw the atty) but it did not solve my issues.
what you describe about fluctuations, and what you found about ehpro cutting power early - might be consistent with my observation:
for example my mod when it kinda works in TC - it goes TSSSHSSHHssssss........ so what i mean is - it sends enough power in the beginning (sometimes), but after 1 second it abruptly stops and barely works, then another second later almost nothing (almost complete drop in power).
and sometimes when TC actually works, still i have fluctuations that (i think) you described with your pico - it goes like this when you fire "SHSHsshhshHSHSHSHshshshsSHSHSHSHshshshs" - like a wave shaped curve. honestly i could live with that, but that's the best case scenario. usually its just unstable and unpredictable.
the only workarounds i found that sometimes work are:
1) intentional flooding
2) unscrewing the tank to expose the coils, without taking the coils off the mod, screwing the tank back. for some reason it works. problem i have to do it after every puff sometimes .
those are work around anyway, not a fix.
I'm more optimistic about DNA mods now though, looking forward to acquire one.
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