Colorado man sues after explosion
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A marketer once told me that if I could PROVE what I was suggesting
would increase sales...He would be all ears.
Sales is a black art ... mumbo jumbo and magical tricks. It's like politics. It's more about the spin than the effectiveness of the product. That, and spread sheets that show how the customer can receive a benefit or save money. The technical side gets to back up all the claims that sales makes. I made my living doing this for over three decades (product technical backing up sales pitches with results)!
Proof is up to the engineering department in the case of a new product. They don't always perceive the ingenious ways that a customer can actually use the product and have no control over the consumables that enter into real world usage. Customers will save a buck everywhere they can and should if the performance doesn't suffer.
It's a cruel world out there with knockoffs of the best batteries looking almost as good as the real McCoy. I can't blame people who buy substandard "name brand" batteries that cause problems thinking they have the right battery. You really can't blame someone for buying Radio Shack batteries if they claim to be the proper type and rating. After all, they depend on the sale person to sell them what they ask for.
I agree that buying batteries from the maker of an expensive mod is a best practice as long as the price is within reason. At least they've used these batteries, have established a track record, and trust them personally.
Rocketman, do we want people's heads to spin off, mention that the actual flow is electrons from the negative side of the battery moving through the device towards the positive terminal?
Depends on whether you are a design engineer or a real world technician. Design engineers are taught to view conduction as hole flow, not electron movement! I prefer to believe that the car moves forward instead of the world moving under it. Actually, both views can be correct.
It's all perspective and it's full of valid points for discussion. The best answer is that it flows both ways with opposite polarities in each direction.
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One of the problems we are dealing with here is the level of BS that we take for granted. When a vendor makes claims that are obviously BS, or implies a level of quality, safety or testing that is untrue, we tend to dismiss it as "just marketing". Those of us who know better just gloss over the hyperbole and move on. We have been rendered numb to manipulation and lies. The problem is that this "marketing" is effective on people who don't know better. A naive buyer might believe that he is protected from even significant user error.
The history of product liability shows tragic abuses on both sides. But perhaps if we, the target audience, immediately and vocally reacted to BS in ads and web site verbiage, we could pull things towards more accurate and less misleading product descriptions. This could help the customer not be misled, and protect the vendor from the burden of unfair liability.
As to the whole battery e-cig safety issue, if these are to be widely used, something that is held in the mouth really should use a battery and actuator that are designed and checked to be fail-safe, not just batteries retrofitted with a minimal low-cost "protection" board. Relying on brand reputation and labels just improves the odds a bit. Every mod should use a fuse. A fail-safe design is one in which things fail in the "off" state, and in which even simultaneous failure of several components cannot produce an unsafe condition. Although 100% safety can never be achieved, you can get pretty close, and we are miles from that with these flashlight batteries.
The history of product liability shows tragic abuses on both sides. But perhaps if we, the target audience, immediately and vocally reacted to BS in ads and web site verbiage, we could pull things towards more accurate and less misleading product descriptions. This could help the customer not be misled, and protect the vendor from the burden of unfair liability.
As to the whole battery e-cig safety issue, if these are to be widely used, something that is held in the mouth really should use a battery and actuator that are designed and checked to be fail-safe, not just batteries retrofitted with a minimal low-cost "protection" board. Relying on brand reputation and labels just improves the odds a bit. Every mod should use a fuse. A fail-safe design is one in which things fail in the "off" state, and in which even simultaneous failure of several components cannot produce an unsafe condition. Although 100% safety can never be achieved, you can get pretty close, and we are miles from that with these flashlight batteries.
Well yea you answered the questions. Nope havent bought anything i didnt read up on first. If i bought a gun i would damn sure go a research what bullet goes in it. It would be dumb of me not to. Who would walk into a gun store and not know what bullets to ask for.Thats reckless on their part if they dont.
A couple rhetorical questions
1. How many are making MODS and selling them to vendors ?
2. How many vendors, just in the US, are selling MODs ?
OK ... I Lied ... Here's another one
3. How many vendors who sell MODs would be receptive
to the idea of placing Warnings and related issues about
batteries on their websites ?
Maybe just take the position of "buyer be ware" and
the public needs to research before buying anything?
OR
Wait for the package to arrive in the mail and
surprise the consumer with Warnings, instructions,
disclaimers, and technical information that most
won't read.
Oh, by the way ... I made a call to a vender who sells
standard e-cigs and MODS. Passed along some information
and a few suggestions made on this thread.
Went over like a lead balloon.
You can just imagine my surprise (sarcasm)
1. How many are making MODS and selling them to vendors ?
2. How many vendors, just in the US, are selling MODs ?
OK ... I Lied ... Here's another one
3. How many vendors who sell MODs would be receptive
to the idea of placing Warnings and related issues about
batteries on their websites ?
Maybe just take the position of "buyer be ware" and
the public needs to research before buying anything?
OR
Wait for the package to arrive in the mail and
surprise the consumer with Warnings, instructions,
disclaimers, and technical information that most
won't read.
Oh, by the way ... I made a call to a vender who sells
standard e-cigs and MODS. Passed along some information
and a few suggestions made on this thread.
Went over like a lead balloon.
You can just imagine my surprise (sarcasm)
You know tho you can't even sell skin cream with warnings of possible allergic reactions. It seems very odd that vendors don't think being honest about possible explosions would be worthy to mention, something is just not right here. Fact is we all know now things can explode if the wrong batts or wrong chargers or too low resistance attys or cartos are used on the wrong unit. Let's protect the user by at least telling them to check the specs for the unit they are using and be sure to use the right batts, chargers, atty or carto or it could go boom. bnrk
Another must read- http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s/76078-exploding-mods-current-situation.html
bnrk
bnrk
Well, the intended audience of the post is the advanced, as it speaks about us needing to educate the non-advanced. Though, I do agree with your point, since it is actually the same as I was getting at. We need to get out that there is more than just a battery to worry about, and consumers need to gain some type of awareness, as they purchase.
Now, when you say "Products need to be made safe to use and easy to maintain for the sake of Dummies like me.", I don't think that will do. The issue is that even though a product like the Indulgence V3 is made to take a 18650 battery, that doesn't stop a person from putting 2 stacked 16340s in it. Heck, there are even 4 batteries that you can stack in those things. It is an unprotected mod, and that can be dangerous. I don't think you can ever make a device that is 100% safe. We can try, but we are dealing with electricity here. I mean, almost everything with a battery has had some issue over time with catching fire, or a battery blowing up.
I think your "the book PV Mods for Dummies" is on the spot though. I believe that it needs to be more of a guide. More of a use-these-with-this type thing. A "safe mode of operation", for lack of better term. Even, heck, a "buyers guide". It is amazing the amount of information a person will gain before buying a TV, but just base vaping items on cost. There are some things to look for when buying vaping gear. We need to make it easy.
Now, I am a single parent, so the thought of Garanimals comes to mind. No, I don't think we should have an animal picture on items so people can match them up. But, I do think we need to take a mod, and let people know which batteries are best, and which ohm (Ω) items are safest.
Heck the damm darwin wich is far more "advance" and expensive that most mods is more simple and easy to use plus the built-in battery makes it even more adequate as entry level device than other less expensive ; maybe that is key lol ? Less risk i guess and with battery failures in most cases theres little warning before it goes boom doubt people will be holding the damm pv if it start to get hot and buzzing
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
doubt people will be holding the damm pv if it start to get hot and buzzingSent from my iPad using Tapatalk
The day will come, we hope, when electronic cigarettes are considered everyday items.
And people will be buying them without knowing squat about squat.
Well, unless of course they are blowing up in people's faces.
Then it won't be long before nobody will even be able to remember what an electronic cigarette was.
That's the bottom line.
There is no other bottom line.
And people will be buying them without knowing squat about squat.
Well, unless of course they are blowing up in people's faces.
Then it won't be long before nobody will even be able to remember what an electronic cigarette was.
That's the bottom line.
There is no other bottom line.
Chinese cell phone explodes in man?s pocket
Droid Explodes in Man's Ear; 5 Other Cell Phone Nightmares
Youth dies in Kota as cellphone explodes - Times Of India
iPhone 4 Explodes Midflight on Australian Airline - ABC News
Yup, if they can't make them California safe, they ought to ban them. Nokia, Samsung, LG, Motorola, Philips, BlackBerry, Apple all contract China to make cell phones for them. Open yours up and read the label.
I'm not happy about the issues with these batteries, but they exist and will continue to until that industry comes up with improved battery technology. Hey, they're using larger ones in cars. Anyone want to guess how long before one of them hits the headlines?
I've been using a mod for over two years without any of the precautions I use today. I'm more concerned today because of the reports on failures. They're important in making people aware of the issues. I now use charging bags and test my cells every few weeks. There is nothing without some level of risk, hopefully the mistakes of the past will lead to improvements in the future.
Droid Explodes in Man's Ear; 5 Other Cell Phone Nightmares
Youth dies in Kota as cellphone explodes - Times Of India
iPhone 4 Explodes Midflight on Australian Airline - ABC News
Yup, if they can't make them California safe, they ought to ban them. Nokia, Samsung, LG, Motorola, Philips, BlackBerry, Apple all contract China to make cell phones for them. Open yours up and read the label.
I'm not happy about the issues with these batteries, but they exist and will continue to until that industry comes up with improved battery technology. Hey, they're using larger ones in cars. Anyone want to guess how long before one of them hits the headlines?
I've been using a mod for over two years without any of the precautions I use today. I'm more concerned today because of the reports on failures. They're important in making people aware of the issues. I now use charging bags and test my cells every few weeks. There is nothing without some level of risk, hopefully the mistakes of the past will lead to improvements in the future.
I dont think its odd at all.They think that they will be scaring away$$$ with such warnings. So, they feel that some small print in the T & C will hold up in court because we all check the box. Well they are going to find out the hard/expensive way.
The difference is the car manufacturers have the $ and have spent the $ to solve these issues. Whereas the chinese manufacturers are only interested in shipping bulk starter kits and APV's.
Li-ion cells in cars has been in the headlines for exploding during a accident however they continue to use them because the small risk is worth the reward.Just because there are a few failures doesnt really mean its unsafe.
I have a spreadsheet that is updated every time a batt is drained or charged. I put every APV batt on the meter every single time its drained, and every time it comes off the charger. This way, IMO, I will know ahead of time if something is out of wack. Its also a great way to keep track of batt quality, and it gives me a reference for irregularities. It takes 30 seconds to test, and 1 min to enter the data. Also this just dawned on me, if something does go wrong, I have a log to show the history of the batt.
Overkill or proactive? What do you experts think?
If that were an absolute parallel, you'd have a point - but it isn't.
In your example, it's known for certain that the alternative to the proper round will explode the barrel of the gun. In the situation under discussion, we don't know what, if any, combination of cells and usage pattern is going to cause a catastrophic failure. Sure, there are hypotheses, but there is no definitive, tested and confirmed scenario in which a combination of cells and usage will will go bang.
This is, in my view, the very root of the problem. I read "if you do A,B and C, then your mod WILL explode". So, I do A, B and C repeatedly, and nothing untoward happens.
A while back on this thread, Rolygate asked why I was against making a safer mod. I'm not - not at all. However, I do believe that you cannot design a safer piece of kit unless you know exactly what the risks are, and what the causes of catastrophic failures are. And at the moment, we don't. We have hypothesised, but the whole "slice some slots into it" doesn't prevent catastrophic failure - it merely moves the point of impact from the face and hands to the hands alone.
Apparently, that's an acceptable risk.
We have seen that it's eminently possible to protect a pair of cells in series from shorting out by the inclusion of fuses, either as compact electronic devices or as "shrinking springs" (the latter of which is a flawed design, as battery length cannot be accounted for consistently). But, other posts have opined that a faulty cell is a faulty cell and has metallic inclusions that guarantee a catastrophic failure at some point. So external short protection/thermal sensing and so on won't help there.
I think my point is that, bottom line, it's not the mod that's the issue - it's the cells. In the gun example, the problem isn't the gun - it's the ammo (whether it's an exact parallel or not).
From that perspective, we absolutely MUST ascertain as reliably as is possible, what the true, in-use causes of catastrophic cell/battery failures are. Only then can we possibly advise on the design of so-called "safe mods".
Any spec for such things produced prior to that can only be based on conjecture and hypothesis - and if it's wrong, or merely shifts the focus of harm from one body part to another, then its authors might well be held accountable.
I generally agree with this, but my contention is that we can never fix the battery issue: it won't be possible to stop people deliberately misusing the equipment, or making mistakes, or being the victims of fraud (counterfeit batteries).
If you can't stop damaged or faulty or incorrect cells being used, what other options are there? The only one I see is to make the device in such a way that no matter what is inserted into it, it cannot explode in the user's face. The tradeoff is they get a blister on their hand and it burns up their carpet.
Imagine this situation in three year's time when there are half a million APVs out there, being used by every possible type of user from the elderly housewife to the crazy young adult. Giving them information to try and keep them safe is not sufficient, it just won't work all of the time. The only answer is a safe device. What that involves exactly is not clear yet.
Perhaps in the future we ought to have more devices with a USB charging socket, to reduce the probability that the wrong batteries will be used by somebody. However that doesn't fix the problem of the tens of thousands of APVs out there that can have two counterfeit, damaged or faulty batteries inserted.
In fact this is a whole separate issue that does not involve units that will be sold from today onward: some of the units already out there will explode in someone's face one day.
If you can't stop damaged or faulty or incorrect cells being used, what other options are there? The only one I see is to make the device in such a way that no matter what is inserted into it, it cannot explode in the user's face. The tradeoff is they get a blister on their hand and it burns up their carpet.
Imagine this situation in three year's time when there are half a million APVs out there, being used by every possible type of user from the elderly housewife to the crazy young adult. Giving them information to try and keep them safe is not sufficient, it just won't work all of the time. The only answer is a safe device. What that involves exactly is not clear yet.
Perhaps in the future we ought to have more devices with a USB charging socket, to reduce the probability that the wrong batteries will be used by somebody. However that doesn't fix the problem of the tens of thousands of APVs out there that can have two counterfeit, damaged or faulty batteries inserted.
In fact this is a whole separate issue that does not involve units that will be sold from today onward: some of the units already out there will explode in someone's face one day.
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