Colorado man sues after explosion

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Petrodus

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How many times have we suggested people should
join the ECF and ask questions ?


Here's an 4/15 post by someone who joined this month
I keep hearing about mods. What exactly are they?
CLICK HERE

NOTE: No Warnings about batteries and if you don't know
for sure what your doing... BOOM !!

Edit for future reference:
Number of posts on the above thread at this time: 5
 
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kwalka

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How many times have we suggested people should
join the ECF and ask questions ?


Here's an 4/15 post by someone who joined this month
I keep hearing about mods. What exactly are they?
CLICK HERE

NOTE: No Warnings about batteries and if you don't know
for sure what your doing... BOOM !!

Just curious, did you send the OP a PM?
 

Petrodus

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Just curious, did you send the OP a PM?
No
I'm not a modder and there are those more qualified
than me to open a PM discussion on this subject.

PS: Often I have seen highly technical information
shared with those who are struggling to understand
just the basics about e-cigs ... Food for thought
 

kwalka

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No
I'm not a modder and there are those more qualified
than me to open a PM discussion on this subject.

PS: Often I have seen highly technical information
shared with those who are struggling to understand
just the basics about e-cigs ... Food for thought

I agree. Last night I came across 2 additional threads where they had batts fail. The first was a lavatube just sitting on a desk untouched and it went red hot, and the other was like a 510 pen style that started to smoke. The second guy was kind of laughing about it and saying how he had a mod on the way. I'm still trying to straighten him out and get him to understand the gravity of what could of happened.
 

four2109

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How many times have we suggested people should
join the ECF and ask questions ?


Here's an 4/15 post by someone who joined this month
I keep hearing about mods. What exactly are they?
CLICK HERE

NOTE: No Warnings about batteries and if you don't know
for sure what your doing... BOOM !!

Edit for future reference:
Number of posts on the above thread at this time: 5


This one is a Sticky in the newbie forum. It's closed. No mention of battery risk or safety.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/179884-explain-apvs-mods-me-please.html
 

Blargh23

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hifistud

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I generally agree with this, but my contention is that we can never fix the battery issue: it won't be possible to stop people deliberately misusing the equipment, or making mistakes, or being the victims of fraud (counterfeit batteries).

If you can't stop damaged or faulty or incorrect cells being used, what other options are there? The only one I see is to make the device in such a way that no matter what is inserted into it, it cannot explode in the user's face. The tradeoff is they get a blister on their hand and it burns up their carpet.

Well, firstly, we have to ascertain exactly what causes the problem - we both agree that the root cause is something to do with battery cells. Neither of us, though, can pinpoint exactly what - we can surmise that counterfeit cells or primary cells or mismatched cells are the culprits, but we cannot be certain. By the same token, and given the diversity of the energy release from different chemistries of cells under catastrophic failure, what might cause a blister in one scenario might completely disable a hand in another - as of this moment, we do not know.

What is needed is testing - firstly to ascertain the actual causes of catastrophic failures IN USE (we already know about charging), and secondly, having garnered that information, what the characteristics of the failures are, and thus what warnings, if any, are given as the cells head towards failure.

With that information, we can then be fairly sure of the likely frequency of failure, the severity of the energy release, what the signs of impending failure are and what needs to be done to mitigate them so as to cause as close to no injuries at all - to hands, face, or anything else. At that point, after all the testing is done, proper detailed advice can be given.
Imagine this situation in three year's time when there are half a million APVs out there, being used by every possible type of user from the elderly housewife to the crazy young adult. Giving them information to try and keep them safe is not sufficient, it just won't work all of the time. The only answer is a safe device. What that involves exactly is not clear yet.

Exactly, for the reasons I've outlined above.
Perhaps in the future we ought to have more devices with a USB charging socket, to reduce the probability that the wrong batteries will be used by somebody. However that doesn't fix the problem of the tens of thousands of APVs out there that can have two counterfeit, damaged or faulty batteries inserted.

Neither does it remove the risk of cells failing under charge - and, therefore, because of the pass-through capability, in use - if anything, it may even raise the potential for catastrophic failure - something again, which needs to tested for and potential failure rates established.
In fact this is a whole separate issue that does not involve units that will be sold from today onward: some of the units already out there will explode in someone's face one day.

indeed, and there's nothing anyone can do about that, other than educate folks with the real, known, tested and reliably demonstrable information.

It would be a brave man who would formulate a design and brand it 100% safe - such a thing just does not exist. For that reason, too, we need to know exactly what causes catastrophic failure in use, and what the most likely failure rate is for the cause(s) in order to be able to quantify the risk for any give mitigation measure. If the chances are one in a million that a device will go postal, is that an acceptable level of risk? Some will say yes, some won't be happy with even that level of risk, but, at some point, you have to say "that's as safe as it gets - accept that or move on".
 
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Petrodus

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Elvis has left the building

MODs prematurely left the hobby circles and now vendors
are offering them to the general public.

To expect vendors to collectedly agree to warn and educate
the public ... Just ain't going to happen.

To expect all those building MODs to accept and incorporate standards
discussed here ... Good Luck

One vendor mentioned to me they wished this thread would be closed
because Google archives what we say here and this thread will show up
when the public is searching for information. Negative Press thing regarding
a product they sell ... Or just "too much information" that might scare off
potential customers ... Not to mention Big Brother, ANTZ, Prohibitionists,
and others monitor discussions on the ECF.

There's always 2 sides to every coin.

Who knows ... Maybe we can start a Politically Correctness movement
on the subject which could bring Peer Pressure to bear with builders
and vendors?

Disclaimer: "Opinions Vary" :)
 

Blargh23

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One vendor mentioned to me they wished this thread would be closed
because Google archives what we say here and this thread will show up
when the public is searching for information.

Call me "Mr. Silly" if you like (I've been called far worse), but I'd prefer general education on potential hazards over worrying about hurting someone's sales.
 

Petrodus

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Call me "Mr. Silly" if you like (I've been called far worse), but I'd prefer general education
on potential hazards over worrying about hurting someone's sales.
If I were You ...
I remember, a long time ago, having discussion with a business owner
I said "If I were you, I would ...."
He replied ... "Would you like to sit in my chair?"
 

four2109

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I have a problem with the APV designation because it implies that all commercially sold mods are advanced. At least modders know how their devices work and what the risks are and how to use them safely, even if they choose not to.
Some of the modders left because they had to become "vendors" to sell any copies of their devices. Other's devices were quickly copied and sold. But that's where they all came from.
 

bnrkwest

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I think education is a must. As consumers we have to let vendors know what we want and why. Instructions on how to use their unit plus safety of handling batts and charging plus using correct batts/chargers/attys/cartos for that unit is not unreasonable to ask for. If a vendor thinks otherwise they may find out that people will not buy a unit without proper instructions and without warnings. Even a plastic bag comes with warnings as do 5 gal pales. It is time to do the same for vapers. I will be contacting vendors I bought from and asking them to do instructions and warnings on types of batts/chargers, safe charging. Let batts rest before use, also the first button push on a new batt or carto/atty do away from face for 3 seconds. I can't believe they would not want to inform and rather have someone use non rechargeable unprotected batts and have their unit blow up in the users face. This is pretty basic stuff for warnings. If we all knew before hand what not to do we would all be safer. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure as they say :) bnrk
 

four2109

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bnrkwest

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According to this they have until "early June" to adapt the devices to these safety standards, but that just means they won't have the ECF seal of approval. I still don't see anything in there that requires a battery safety warning. Maybe I missed it.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ecf-metal-tube-mods-safety-specification.html

Hmm I will have to reread it. The big problem is batteries, that is why the tubes need venting. Use of wrong batteries is a disaster, we have to get the word out. bnrk
 

kwalka

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According to this they have until "early June" to adapt the devices to these safety standards, but that just means they won't have the ECF seal of approval. I still don't see anything in there that requires a battery safety warning. Maybe I missed it.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ecf-metal-tube-mods-safety-specification.html

You just beat me to the post...Why cant said pamphlet be added to the EMSS? It seems to me if the vendors are afraid of scaring customers away from their site with severe warnings, this is a way that fits into the mold of getting peoples $ b4 giving away all the gruesome details. They get their liability covered, and people get a fighting chance of avoiding catastrophe.
 

bombshellECHO

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You just beat me to the post...Why cant said pamphlet be added to the EMSS? It seems to me if the vendors are afraid of scaring customers away from their site with severe warnings, this is a way that fits into the mold of getting peoples $ b4 giving away all the gruesome details. They get their liability covered, and people get a fighting chance of avoiding catastrophe.

Thats the thing you would think that vendors would want to be well known for giving out the correct information instead of throwing it into little text in a terms portion that barley anyone reads (lets get real we are in america and we are lazy...) instead we just click the little button and go on. Maybe there should be a recording that plays when you get to said section that you HAVE TO listen to before you continue (since we are lazy and dont want to read ). anyhow back to the point, the vendors should want to be know as a "SAFE" vendor. Dont you think that over anything else would generate business? In their minds no. but why not, why would they not want to cover their liability and the chance of getting sued? idk maybe its just greed that has taken over this industry and if it has its a sad sad day.
 

kwalka

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Thats the thing you would think that vendors would want to be well known for giving out the correct information instead of throwing it into little text in a terms portion that barley anyone reads (lets get real we are in america and we are lazy...) instead we just click the little button and go on. Maybe there should be a recording that plays when you get to said section that you HAVE TO listen to before you continue (since we are lazy and dont want to read ). anyhow back to the point, the vendors should want to be know as a "SAFE" vendor. Dont you think that over anything else would generate business? In their minds no. but why not, why would they not want to cover their liability and the chance of getting sued? idk maybe its just greed that has taken over this industry and if it has its a sad sad day.

I love the recording idea! After all I've been thru w a pipe bomb APV (nothing happened but the potential was there), the next APV I buy will be the ECF approved Buzz Pro. Excuse me if I hacked the name. The point is exactly what you stated, in my mind they are the only vendor that I'm aware of anyway that is being proactive and putting out a device w our best interest in mind. That alone is enough for me.
 
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