FDA Common misconceptions about FDA regulations ( I hope CASAA will address at some point in the next few weeks)

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sqirl1

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And tobacco pipes DON'T have other uses? All pipes that are know for you-know-what are legal because they say "oh well this is for tobacco, all other uses are up to them", which brings me to another point, there's one rolling paper line called juicy jays that still flavored under grounds that they're only intended for use with "non-tobacco LEGAL smoking herbs" whatever the hell that is....
 
Jan 19, 2014
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And tobacco pipes DON'T have other uses? All pipes that are know for you-know-what are legal because they say "oh well this is for tobacco, all other uses are up to them", which brings me to another point, there's one rolling paper line called juicy jays that still flavored under grounds that they're only intended for use with "non-tobacco LEGAL smoking herbs" whatever the hell that is....

Actually the FDA could go after tobacco pipes if they wanted to, I don't think there's a question about it. But then they've left vaping alone for years, so obviously they're not 100% efficient. As far as the OTHER_STUFF goes, I'm sure you know what I mean by a "toilet paper roll" LOL. In contrast, there's no substitute for cigarette papers if you want to roll a tobacco cigarette (etc.).

The Juicy Jay's folks are probably going to have to remove this from their web site: Juicy Flavornator

I did google them with "FDA" and saw a bunch of stuff regarding the FSPTCA, and there was a lot of concern among their customers regarding potential regulation. But for some interesting reason, the FDA never went all the way. Take a look at: Juicy Jays Needs YOU

This FDA Sued Again on Flavored Cigarette Ban | ConvenienceStoreNews ... seems to imply that the FDA threatened to go after them under the flavored cigarette portions of the FSPTCA.

That's a little different from the "component or part" prohibition, and it may be that Juicy Jay's isn't subject to that because their products were introduced before 2/15/7. Either that, or the FDA just decided not to bother.

I was fascinated when I read the little blurb they have on their web site, which seems to imply that they're doing everything possible to keep their papers from being used with tobacco: Welcome to JuicyJays.com

I wonder whether this would be enough to keep the FDA off their backs, if the FDA decided that they wanted to put some resources into the effort. On the other hand, if most of their rollling papers were introduced prior to 2/15/07, then I think the marginal benefit for the FDA would be fairly minimal.

It might be rather interesting to talk to them, and find out what other steps they've taken to try to stay off the FDA's radar.
 

pt91

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I agree that there is not enough action or outrage about this.
Here is my take:
1- newcomers cannot understand the implications. And the newcomers are a large percentage. They are just trying to make the switch and figure this all out. It is more complicated than a match/lighter and pack of smokes.
2- Old timers. I am one. We figure that we can store enough nic in the freezer to last our lifetime...busy with diy recipes and we know nic is the only thing to worry about, right?
3- Vendors seem not do be worrying. This one puzzles me. The brand new ones, especially retailers, say they have 2 plus years and it will work out. But I am starting to see vendors getting out...moving on.
4- People IMO don't think positively but just wait until their liquid is banner, restricted or is priced more than cigs. Then the panic begins.
We are dealing with human nature in what just might be the biggest life saver of our decade.
I write and I preach. It is frustrating to me to that vapors are not alarmed at what we are facing. Just reading the crap in the news about this should make all of us angry enough to act.
We need a simple way to act/protest. A way to vote as a group. Most vapors are not here and do not no casaa from napta.
IMO we need science. We need testing and studies to nullify those that we read.

Our capacity as humans to "think positive" in the face of impending disaster was perhaps a critical component of our ability to survive in a world of paleolithic predators.

It seems that here on ECF, there are myriad posters who reflect this capability, and who continue to hold a number of questionable views about the likely results of the FDA's proposed rules for vaping regulation.

Based on my admittedly unscientific perusal of posts on other vaping forums, various sites devoted to vaping, and Youtube videos, I'm ready to conclude that there are a plethora of false hopes out there. No one wants to be accused of thinking that "the sky is falling."

Yet most who have looked closely at the FDA's proposed rules, carefully considered the history of FDA regulation in the tobacco products context, as well as FDA actions and pronouncements concerning vaping (not to mention their attitude towards the science), have come to a rather different conclusion.

Namely, we genuinely do believe that the "sky" will "fall" if the FDA's proposed multi-faceted rule becomes final, and ends up being implemented with the same goal of discouraging the use of "tobacco products" that Congress clearly intended to pursue when passing the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (FSPTCA).

Our view is that there will be nothing left on the market other than a few types of "cigAlikes."

Of course this will lead to numerous consequences, such as the end of vaping as we know it (or at least it will effectively stop the growth in the number of existing vapers who use advanced products), and dramatically reduce the potential for smokers to quit smoking tobacco cigarettes in favor of vaping. Eventually, the prevalence of "dual use" in the cigAlike context may provide the very type of (legitimate) scientific evidence to support the thesis that vaping leads to "more (tobacco cigarette) smoking, not less."

That's why the scope and effect of the FDA's proposed rule on the availability of e-liquid and hardware need to be clarified. In particular, it's critical to identify and debunk questionable if not downright false ideas about the options available to the non-cigAlike vaping industry and users of advanced vaping (non-cigAlike) products.


***

DUBIOUS OR INCORRECT NOTIONS ABOUT THE FDA'S PROPOSED RULE AND THEIR LIKELY IMPACT

I intend this to be only an example of the sort of definitive statement that I'd prefer to see CASAA release at some point, in order to disabuse those who think otherwise.

---

I. BELIEFS ABOUT WHAT CAN BE DONE IN THE NEAR FUTURE

Belief 1: The FDA's proposed rule may be challenged in court, prior to any action undertaken against a specific manufacturer, just as it was in Soterra. So this proposed rule can be stopped long before the two year "window" closes.
False
Federal Courts demand a "case or controversy" before hearing the merits of a claim, and this is often interpreted as requiring that a federal agency act or threaten to act against a particular party before the court will entertain a request to issue an order to the agency in the form of an injunction. In the Soterra case, the FDA had already acted. It seems extremely unlikely that the FDA regulations could be stopped by any entity that had not at least submitted a rejected application for market approval, or received a "cease and desist" letter from the FDA, or been on the receiving end of a product siezure.

Belief 2: The FDA is simply putting foward a framework for negotiation and discussion. If we vapers get together, then organizations that represent us and/or the vaping industry can sit down with the FDA and offer them a series of "compromises," that may result in the FDA drafting a different proposed rule.
False
The FDA's "listening sessions" are over. The only thing that vapers can do right now to participate in the formal process is to submit comments during the period that will end in early July (although CASAA intends to request an extension, the FDA has the sole authority to decline this request). Once the comment period ends, the FDA will draft a final proposed rule that will go to the OMB. If OMB permits the final proposed rule to move forward, it will then be presented to the US Congress. While Congress has the authority to block the proposed rule, it must act affirmatively to do so. Without any such vote, the rule will become final. Furthermore, any such vote would be subject to a Presidential veto.

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II. BELIEFS ABOUT PRODUCTS SOLD WITHIN DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS

Belief 3: There are products available prior to Feb '07 which are "substantially equivalent" to products available now, such as unflavored nicotine base.
Almost certainly false
Anything available prior to Feb '07 would have to be tested and proven to be chemically identical to whatever is sold now. Furthermore it would need to be offered in identical quantity and packaging. No hardware solution available at that time (if one could be found) is in any way comparable to something that could likely be offered today.

Belief 4: Products introduced prior to the end of the 2-year window after the rule become final will be "grandparented," and not require approval.
False
The FDA has no authority under the law to do so.

Belief 5: As long as an application is submitted within the two-year window after the rule becomes final, the FDA will allow the product to remain on the market until the application is reviewed, which might take many years, given the history of tobacco cigarette applications and the number of applications submitted prior to that application.
Probably false
There are no enforceable rules regarding the order in which applications are reviewed. The FDA could choose to reject every single vaping product on the first day after the two-year window closes. At that point, the products could be immediately pulled from the market, meaning that the FDA has the right to sieze and destroy them at the manufacturer's expense.

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III. BELIEFS ABOUT COSTS OF THE APPLICATION PROCESS AND THE REGULATORY FRAMEWORK

Belief 6: The costs of an application might be as little as a few thousand dollars, or perhaps a few tens of thousands of dollars.
False
No credible person who has looked at this process has suggested that it will cost less than several hundred thousand dollars (at a bare minimum) to do all the necessary studies and analyses of the product's effect on tobacco product usage behavior as well as fulfill the additional standards. Some estimates are as high as $10M. The FSPTCA statutory framework was specifically set up by Congress to deter big tobacco companies from marketing new varieties of tobacco cigarettes, so the barriars placed in their path will be very similar to those facing any e-liquid or vaping equipment manufacturer.

Belief 7: The FDA is going to establish an approval process for small businesses which is less burdensome than that required for larger ones in terms of the required studies and product analysis.
False
It has no authority to "streamline" application processes for businesses of different sizes. See the previous point as well.

Belief 8: The economic costs of closing down thousands of B&M vape stores and online distributors will be a factor in convincing elected representatives to put pressure on the FDA to revise the proposed rules.
Doubtful
Any cost computation must weigh the costs to the vaping industry against the public health benefits associated with a net decrease in use of tobacco cigarettes that junk science analyses attribute to limiting vaping, such as the "gateway to tobacco cigarette smoking" alleged for minors and the alleged decreased cessation rates attributed to adult "dual users." At $1M per user/smoker, it will take very few additional tobacco cigarette smokers to counterbalance this economic loss. Furthermore, there is no evidence to suggest that the largest-selling cigAlikes will be negatively impacted by the prospect of FDA regulation, thus making it difficult to argue that there will be significant economic costs.

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IV. BELIEFS ABOUT THE REQUIRED NUMBER OF DISTINCT APPLICATIONS

Belief 9: There will be one approval process for each flavor of e-liquid, which can then be used by other manufacturers.
False
If the history of the tobacco cigarette approval process is any guide, even the smallest variation in chemical composition or manufacturing standards between two e-liquids will require an individual application to be submitted for each. That includes, but is not necessarily limited to variations in nicotine content, package size, VG/PG ratios, and almost certainly packaging and even labelling.

Belief 10: Hardware (vaping equipment) is not affected, so long as it doesn't contain nicotine, and/or isn't sold with nicotine as part of a "kit."
False
Any "component or part" of a "regulated tobacco product" is covered under the act, and the FDA has indicated that the standard is "intended or anticipated for use." While this approach would also theoretically cover rubber O-rings or 186xx batteries that are used for many other types of products, no one anticipates that the FDA will declare those items to be regulated "components or parts" of tobacco products. However anything that's unique to vaping and essential to a particular usable configuration of a regulated "tobacco product" (e.g. a drip tip) will likely be covered. This means it will require a separate application if it is sold separately. As with e-liquid and tobacco cigarettes, the smallest variations in manufacturing, composition, size, shape, color, and so forth will each yield the requirment for a separate application.

Belief 11: There will be one approval process for each type of hardware. For example, "clones" of certain APVs, mech mods, RDAs, etc. can come into the market, once the originals are approved.
False
See above analysis concerning variations in e-liquid.

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V. BELIEFS ABOUT OTHER "WORKAROUNDS"

Belief 12: A group of manufacturers can submit an application for high-strength e-liquid "base," which would then be used by the customer to create various flavorings. By pooling their resources, this consortium would have have the economic ability to satify the application standards and pursue any needed post-rejection litigation.
Probably false
The FDA is free to reject this application on the first day after the 2-year "window" expires, thus making the product illegal. That means the ROI for the investment involved in submitting the application will be zero until a court intervenes. It might be years before any litigation was concluded successfully for the manufacturers, thus making this an extremely risky prospect. It's not clear what the market would look like for e-liquid, particularly if vaping equipment hadn't been sold for many years prior to any eventual positive outcome in the courts. There are also other issues, such as the base composition ratio between PG and VG, and whether nicotine of that strength could be safely handled by consumers and result in an e-liquid that's also strong enough. Last but not least, any sellers of flavorings that were "intended or anticipated for use" with a "covered tobacco product" (i.e. the high-strength e-liquid) might be in exactly the same situation as vaping equipment manufacturers, i.e. they would be selling a "component or part" of a "tobacco product." This entire strategy is fraught with risks that are difficult to assess at best.

Belief 13: Certain high-quality mech mods, RDAs and so forth will last forever with proper care.
Probably false
Threading and rubber parts such as insulation will wear out and/or threads, screws, and other metal interfaces may require machining after many years of use. Some metal drip tips may last forever, but there is no other essential off-the-shelf equipment used by vapers which is likely to have a lifespan measured in decades. However much of this equipment can be made from off-the-shelf components and this is exactly what was done prior to 2010. Anyone will be free to do so for their own use until laws are passed against "nicotine paraphernalia" (c.f. "drug paraphernalia"). The status of clubs and co-operatives is a bit murkier, the FDA has been known to shut down (for ex.) "raw milk" co-operatives.

Belief 14: The FDA can't possibly stop foriegn internet sellers from making e-liquid and/or vaping hardware available to American consumers.
Doubtful
The FDA has done a fairly good job of keeping unauthorized foreign tobacco cigarettes off the US market. While international smuggling definitely persists, and FDA action against foriegn internet sellers of tobacco cigarettes is constrained by international treaties and obligations (i.e. it has no direct authority), siezures by US customs occur often, and purchasers of these products have been placed on notice by both the FDA as well as state taxing authorities. In some instances, customers have been sent significant tax bills for their illegal interstate and/or international purchases of illegal tobacco cigarettes.

Belief 15: There is no way that the FDA can successfully keep vapers from accessing nicotine and/or vaping equipment on the black market. Besides, all federal agencies are prohibited from drafting regulations that create black markets.
Hard to evaluate
Many existing prescription drugs are sold on the black market. As with all black markets, any given person's experience will likely vary from that of others'.
 
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Absolutely. We need to get the word out.

That's why we should all consider following the advice that CASAA is providing right here:
CASAA: Overview of CASAA's Action Plan Regarding Proposed FDA Regulations

I agree that there is not enough action or outrage about this.
Here is my take:
1- newcomers cannot understand the implications. And the newcomers are a large percentage. They are just trying to make the switch and figure this all out. It is more complicated than a match/lighter and pack of smokes.
2- Old timers. I am one. We figure that we can store enough nic in the freezer to last our lifetime...busy with diy recipes and we know nic is the only thing to worry about, right?
3- Vendors seem not do be worrying. This one puzzles me. The brand new ones, especially retailers, say they have 2 plus years and it will work out. But I am starting to see vendors getting out...moving on.
4- People IMO don't think positively but just wait until their liquid is banner, restricted or is priced more than cigs. Then the panic begins.
We are dealing with human nature in what just might be the biggest life saver of our decade.
I write and I preach. It is frustrating to me to that vapors are not alarmed at what we are facing. Just reading the crap in the news about this should make all of us angry enough to act.
We need a simple way to act/protest. A way to vote as a group. Most vapors are not here and do not no casaa from napta.
IMO we need science. We need testing and studies to nullify those that we read.
 

tombaker

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Stosh

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Actually the FDA could go after tobacco pipes if they wanted to, I don't think there's a question about it. But then they've left vaping alone for years, so obviously they're not 100% efficient. ....

Absolutely, a overly broad & poorly written law coupled with an overly broad ambiguous regulation can attack almost anything they want. The FDA doesn't want to lay down exact definitions, it would be too limiting.

That mud puddle in your back yard after a heavy rain, it's now deemed a "wetlands area" and since it's on your property, you get to pay to maintain it.

The citizen or company is faced with a protracted court battle to convince a judge, and appeals panel that "it's not what the law was intended to address" Up against a bureaucracy that has an endless supply of cash for lawyers fees.
 

toddkuen

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I believe there is already a process to extract nicotine from eggplant, and the resulting water-soluable nicotine is commercially available at $75/5ml. for 100mg/ml (10%). Since your wife is a vaper, she will almost certainly tell you that this is much greater than the existing price, and probably too high to be commercially viable.

(Aikanae1, I can't find your post, but I know it's got to be somewhere. Can you follow up with a link please? Or anyone else who has it?)

As your blog post (cited in your quoted post above) correctly suggests, nicotine derived from a non-tobacco source via a process that does not involve tobacco would be outside the scope of the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (FSPTCA), as well as other statutes that give the FDA control over tobacco products.

It's not clear whether the US government could regulate non-tobacco-dervived nicotine under existing law via other means. Although there would certainly be pressure on government officials to do their best to put a stop to the marketing of this nicotine if an economical derivation process could be found, because opponents of vaping have done a very good job of shifting the conversation away from tobacco, and towards nicotine.

The current meme advanced by vaping opponenets is that nicotine is the principal culprit associated with combustible tobacco use. This is perhaps their most imprtant method for convincing the public that vaping is just as dangerous to the user and the bystander as tobacco cigarette smoking.

For example, a tenured professor of medicine at U.S.C. who happens to sit on the FDA TPC's advisory board recently told a newspaper that exposure to trace amounts of nicotine resulting from what is sometimes known as "third hand vaping" could be harmful: http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/04/touching-chair-in-restaurant-could-be.html

This by no means an isolated example of the hysteria surrounding nicotine which is being advanced by some of America's most respected clinicians and research scientists. Thus many vapers would differ with what you write in your blog post, because we believe that there may be little resulting pro-vaping public releations impact, if an economical way to derive usable nicotine from a non-tobacco source could be found. This is why vapers say "nicotine is the new tobacco."

For this reason, many of us also worry that the FSPTCA could be ammended to add the words "or nicotine" after the word "tobacco," and that this legislation could pass easily, in today's climate of fear. It would likely be zealously supported by virtually every scientist and public health professional in America, as well as by all relavant deeply-pocketed interests.

It's great to hear that you're supportive of the cause. :thumbs: Many lives are at stake.

We're going to need all the help we can get.
 
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toddkuen

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...

For example, a tenured professor of medicine at U.S.C. who happens to sit on the FDA TPC's advisory board recently told a newspaper that exposure to trace amounts of nicotine resulting from what is sometimes known as "third hand vaping" could be harmful: http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/04/touching-chair-in-restaurant-could-be.html

This by no means an isolated example of the hysteria surrounding nicotine which is being advanced by some of America's most respected clinicians and research scientists. Thus many vapers would differ with what you write in your blog post, because we believe that there may be little resulting pro-vaping public releations impact, if an economical way to derive usable nicotine from a non-tobacco source could be found. This is why vapers say "nicotine is the new tobacco."

For this reason, many of us also worry that the FSPTCA could be ammended to add the words "or nicotine" after the word "tobacco," and that this legislation could pass easily, in today's climate of fear. It would likely be zealously supported by virtually every scientist and public health professional in America, as well as by all relavant deeply-pocketed interests.
...

It seems like magical thinking to believe that addition of "or nicotine" means only the use of nicotine for vaping.

The problem with adding "or nicotine" is that it requires the banning/regulation of eggplant, peppers, tea, the many other things that also contain nicotine.

If these nicotine containing plants are magically immune from the ban then there is reasonable legal argument that "or nicotine" is not what Congress intended, i.e., it means everything with nicotine unless the law provides specific exemptions.

The vaping community must argue that these laws be enforced uniformly, i.e., add to hysteria, singling out providers of other nicotine containing products and demanding their "regulation" as well.

Perhaps the farms and Whole Foods would then join our side.

Hysteria is a tool being used indirectly by big tobacco and the FDA.

To win you must turn the tables on them.
 
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We can discuss strategy until the cows come home (and I'm for that, too).

But for now, I'll limit myself to replying to your point about ammending the FSPTCA, and whether such an ammendment would affect other nicotine-containing plants as plants.

1) Here is the text of the FSPTCA: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/tobaccoproducts/guidancecomplianceregulatoryinformation/ucm237080.pdf

2) Add "or nicotine" after "tobacco" whereever it makes sense (probably almost everywhere).

3) Then tweak "(rr) (1)" on p.10 of that PDF. It currently reads:

"The term 'tobacco product' means any product derived from tobacco that is intended ..."

Just add a sentence that reads: "The phrase 'tobacco or nicotine product' includes all tobacco products, as well as any product containing nicotine such that the nicotine is derived via any artificial process, intended for human consumption, [and present in concentrations greater than ... (fill in the blank with whatever concentration metric works to prevent vaping use)."

No tea, eggplant, tomatoes, etc. are covered by this language. I've added the blue square brackets in case they might be needed for some additional language.

***

Is this approach perfect? Maybe not. Lock a few congressional staffers in a room and keep buying them pizza and Starbuck's until they come up with a way to do it. The bill would take perhaps a few days to pass, so anyone else who came up with a problem during that time could highlight it during markup.

Ammending the FSPTCA to cover nicotine derived from non-tobacco sources is not rocket science.


It seems like magical thinking to believe that addition of "or nicotine" means only the use of nicotine for vaping.

The problem with adding "or nicotine" is that it requires the banning/regulation of eggplant, peppers, tea, the many other things that also contain nicotine.

If these nicotine containing plants are magically immune from the ban then there is reasonable legal argument that "or nicotine" is not what Congress intended, i.e., it means everything with nicotine unless the law provides specific exemptions.

The vaping community must argue that these laws be enforced uniformly, i.e., add to hysteria, singling out providers of other nicotine containing products and demanding their "regulation" as well.

Perhaps the farms and Whole Foods would then join our side.

Hysteria is a tool being used indirectly by big tobacco and the FDA.

To win you must turn the tables on them.
 

DeeLeeKay

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We can discuss strategy until the cows come home (and I'm for that, too).

But for now, I'll limit myself to replying to your point about ammending the FSPTCA, and whether such an ammendment would affect other nicotine-containing plants as plants.

1) Here is the text of the FSPTCA: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/tobaccoproducts/guidancecomplianceregulatoryinformation/ucm237080.pdf

2) Add "or nicotine" after "tobacco" whereever it makes sense (probably almost everywhere).

3) Then tweak "(rr) (1)" on p.10 of that PDF. It currently reads:

"The term 'tobacco product' means any product derived from tobacco that is intended ..."

Just add a sentence that reads: "The phrase 'tobacco or nicotine product' includes all tobacco products, as well as any product containing nicotine such that the nicotine is derived via any artificial process, intended for human consumption, [and present in concentrations greater than ... (fill in the blank with whatever concentration metric works to prevent vaping use)."

No tea, eggplant, tomatoes, etc. are covered by this language. I've added the blue square brackets in case they might be needed for some additional language.

***

Is this approach perfect? Maybe not. Lock a few congressional staffers in a room and keep buying them pizza and Starbuck's until they come up with a way to do it. The bill would take perhaps a few days to pass, so anyone else who came up with a problem during that time could highlight it during markup.

Ammending the FSPTCA to cover nicotine derived from non-tobacco sources is not rocket science.


Nicotine from non tobacco sources would mean it is not a tobacco product, right?
 
Jan 19, 2014
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Nicotine from non tobacco sources would mean it is not a tobacco product, right?

Under the FSPTCA as presently written, this is correct.

Under the "ammended FSPTCA" that I am envisioning, this is also true. It would be a (regulated) "tobacco or nicotine product," subject to the exact same FDA powers.
 
Jan 19, 2014
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So, if nicotine derived for other types of plant is could be considered a tobacco product then we must demand that those other plants be regulated as well. Other wise they are being discriminatory. Right?

Laws do not have to be perfectly consistent in that particular way, especially as applied to plants and/or chemicals/organic compounds. The gov't can pick and choose, pretty much as it likes. It would be quite another thing if we were talking about "discriminating" against human beings based on religion, etc.
 

Kent C

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Laws do not have to be perfectly consistent in that particular way, especially as applied to plants and/or chemicals/organic compounds. The gov't can pick and choose, pretty much as it likes. It would be quite another thing if we were talking about "discriminating" against human beings based on religion, etc.

There is a certain faction that holds plants and animals at a higher level than human beings.
 

DeeLeeKay

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Laws do not have to be perfectly consistent in that particular way, especially as applied to plants and/or chemicals/organic compounds. The gov't can pick and choose, pretty much as it likes. It would be quite another thing if we were talking about "discriminating" against human beings based on religion, etc.

If nicotine is so harmful, shouldn't those vegetables be regulated like a tobacco product? After all how much nicotine could one actually come in contact with from vapor? would you get at least as much from say a salad with tomatoes or maybe eating a serving of eggplant?
 

toddkuen

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I don't see much chance the laws or regulations you suggest being passed in anticipation of what someone might invent.

Instead I see what amounts to a group of smokers cowering out back behind the dumpster rationalizing when and why "the big bully" is come out the back door and take yet more rights from them.

In business I have found that perhaps the worst thing anyone can do when faced with adversity is A) rationalize why any solution will fail, B) ignoring opportunities to take any action, and C) wait for the "knight on the white horse" to show up.

At the time of the American Revolution only about 1/3 of the populace support it - yet it was successful.

There is no impediment to my strategy today, nor do I see it likely one will develop until any successful consequences of success make it out into the real world.

The link you offer is a law, not a regulation, so Congress and the President would be required to agree on it in order for it to become real.
 
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Jan 19, 2014
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I don't see much chance the laws or regulations you suggest being passed in anticipation of what someone might invent.

Instead I see what amounts to a group of smokers cowering out back behind the dumpster rationalizing when and why "the big bully" is come out the back door and take yet more rights from them.

In business I have found that perhaps the worst thing anyone can do when faced with adversity is A) rationalize why any solution will fail, B) ignoring opportunities to take any action, and C) wait for the "knight on the white horse" to show up.

At the time of the American Revolution only about 1/3 of the populace support it - yet it was successful.

There is no impediment to my strategy today, nor do I see it likely one will develop until any successful consequences of success make it out into the real world.

The link you offer is a law, not a regulation, so Congress and the President would be required to agree on it in order for it to become real.
{MODERATED}

You're right: the FSPTCA isn't going to be ammended until vaping opponents think that it needs to be. But if the objective is to sit atop a mountain, there's no point in ascending towards the summit, if you know that there's a powerful beast at the top who intends to throw you off, and who is fully capable of doing just that - quite effortlessly. You can hope for some form of divine-or-other-fortuitous intervention, of course. However you might be better off pursuing some other way to get to the goal (like disabling the beast).

As the situation presently stands, I have little doubt that the FSPTCA would be immediately ammended to plug the loophole. Or perhaps DEA jurisdiction would be extended through rulemaking (if that's possible). Etc.

It's not as if the US government is going to stand there and let this happen, with all the deep-pocketed interests and the American scientific and medical establishments rolling over dead along with the Tobacco-Control Government-Industrial Complex. That's the "beast." Until we defeat it, it's not going away. No sneaking around it.

Now if I was given the choice between having someone discover an alternate (and cost-effective) way to synthesis nicotine from another source besides tobacco, and not doing so, I'd prefer the former - other things being equal. It's clearly better than nothing. (If nothing else, it makes it harder for the gov't to stop the growth of a black market in water-soluble nicotine.)

But if I were in the business of allocating scarce resources, I'd probably recommend that they go elsewhere. I felt the same way about the C.L.A.S.H lawsuit against NYC, although at least that had the benefit of "rallying the troops."

To be brutally frank, I'd rather see that $10,000 go into some PAC somewhere, or into a decent cessation study. Sorry for being cynical. But you asked how I felt.

P.S.: Your analogy to the American revolution is interesting, but it assumes that there is effectively only one pathway forward. If I thought this was the only way to succeed, I would support it to the exclusion of all alternatives.

[EDIT: That said, if you're hell-bent on doing this, I wish you the best of luck. As I said, if you succeed it will at least make it harder to stop the coming black market in water-soluble nicotine.]
 
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pamdis

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toddkuen

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Look, I wish you all the luck in the world.

But either you are unaware of what's been done by CASAA and people on this forum to fight at the state and local level, or you may be selling those efforts short.

Vapers have not lost a single critical legislative battle this year at the state level. Not one. Granted, major cities that move more quickly have told a different story. But if you compare the posts on the legislative forum here at ECF to the legislative calender, you will see that vapers have dodged the bullet as a result of effective organizing (and yes even the activity of a lobbyist in one state that I can name, although the battle isn't quite over yet), in many states that might appear to be very difficult for vapers such as OR, WA, MD, UT, and so forth. Virtually every state here that no longer has a legislature in session is a state in which we have won: 2014 Legislative Session Calendar

CASAA has a strategy for dealing with these proposed FDA rules. Based on its past record, most of us are content to wait to find out what the best course of action is. CASAA was also responsible for organizing a peer-reviewed study on the toxicity (to be precise: the lack thereof) of "second hand vapor" which has been hugely effective in beating back some of these state and local efforts. If we had a cessation study that allowed smokers who wanted to quit the option of buying more than what we call "cigAlikes," that might be critical as well. And yes, a PAC (I believe) paid for that lobbyist in MN - and the result may be that even more MN smokers are able to have a better opportunity to quit. I don't see anything wrong with that.

You may find that type of political action "insulting" to participate in, but that's a very strong word to use to describe those who have been fighting this fight for a whole lot longer than I (and perhaps you) have.

If you have a magic bullet, then I wish you all the best in terms of deploying it.

BTW I hope you realize that only the federal government is in any way constrained by the FSPTCA. The states can do all the same things - including banning vaping completely - whether tobacco is involved or not. In fact the states would be much freer to act against non-tobacco-derived nicotine.
 
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toddkuen

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Look, I wish you all the luck in the world.

Thanks - I do appreciate it.

CASAA has a strategy for dealing with these proposed FDA rules. Based on its past record, most of us are content to wait to find out what the best course of action is. CASAA was also responsible for organizing a peer-reviewed study on the toxicity (to be precise: the lack thereof) of "second hand vapor" which has been hugely effective in beating back some of these state and local efforts. If we had a cessation study that allowed smokers who wanted to quit the option of buying more than what we call "cigAlikes," that might be critical as well. And yes, a PAC (I believe) paid for that lobbyist in MN - and the result may be that even more MN smokers are able to have a better opportunity to quit. I don't see anything wrong with that.

You may find that type of political action "insulting" to participate in, but that's a very strong word to use to describe those who have been fighting this fight for a whole lot longer than I (and perhaps you) have.

I am not insulting anyone's efforts to date. It should be completely obvious that had I wished to use a PAC I simply would have and said nothing.

If you have a magic bullet, then I wish you all the best in terms of deploying it.

BTW I hope you realize that only the federal government is in any way constrained by the FSPTCA. The states can do all the same things - including banning vaping completely - whether tobacco is involved or not. In fact the states would be much freer to act against non-tobacco-derived nicotine.

It also seems completely obvious that, short of a magic bullet, this battle will continue ad nauseam as long as at least one anti-tobacco zealots are still breathing at the FDA.

What I find particularly troubling is, as you point out, is a "second hand vapor" study is so "necessary."

Certainly studies do showing "second hand vapor" has nano-gram amounts of nicotine - less than cauliflower no less.

But there is also a great deal of scientific data pointing out that nicotine is not addictive in the first place and, in many scenarios, provides an at least somewhat effective treatment for diseases like Parkinsons.

By conceding the addictive aspect and fighting the "second hand vapor" argument we are also validating the addiction argument while supporting their unproven science.

In this case I don't think there is a single magic bullet.

Instead there is a only strategic attack, each with its own magic bullet, on multiple fonts simultaneously.

And while having one or two good studies is nice I really don't see anywhere in the rules that the FDA has to accept these studies (what's plan B if someone makes a mistake with a critical study?)

Local legislators are probably not as clever as those at the FDA so my guess is the zealots will return.

Bless CASAA for their efforts - but never put all your eggs in one basket.
 

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Local legislators are probably not as clever as those at the FDA so my guess is the zealots will return.

Bless CASAA for their efforts - but never put all your eggs in one basket.

Agreed. It's a perpetual game of whack-a-mole. And we have to use all resources available to us--on all fronts.
 
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