Confused about Diacetyl? You should be - read now
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I guess this is at least part of Dr. Polosa's work being referred to here:
BMC Medicine | Full text | Electronic cigarette use and harm reversal: emerging evidence in the lung
Is there any more?
On of the issues I see reoccuring and causing confusion is that sample 1 posts figures that are acceptable and sample 2 of the same eliquid has results that are not acceptable and wildly different from sample 1.
Nobody seems to be able to offer an explaination and that void leads to suspicion. The manufacturers are caught in the middle and like consumers, don't know themselves which to believe. That sounds cagey, like they are hiding something when they'd be best saying "I don't know". IMO the fact they tested is due dilligence with what is currently known.
But there's still a lot to learn. I've also seen comments that nicotine extraction requires fermentation and that can lead to the base having levels of diacetyl due to insufficient filtration of acetolactate (a precurser). It may not be just the flavorings. Diketones are turning out to be chasing phantom elements and not as black and white as many would like it to be.
Just because a liquid tests over the limit for NIOSH related standards doesn't take into account that liquid is also combined with air that further dilutes it and that also poses more questions, positive and negative, about safety. Absolute answers may not be on the horizon for awhile but that doesn't mean consumers should stop pushing for them and maybe we need to prepare to balance the risks while this is sorted out. My own opinion is that accurate testing equipment and protocols are yet to be developed.
I know from artist materials that standard manufacturing practice takes raw material supplier testing and carries that info forward. The manufacturer rarely does independent testing beyond that. The fact some flavoring companies did do additional testing and now some liquid companies is exceptional and indicates that many are committed to vaping safely.
This should also give concern to other juice manufacturers who don't do testing, those that want to take their living room mixing into the public. I doubt if every mom and pop b&m store will be able to test their latest flavor conncotions. I'm kinda sad about that but that's probably the price of a maturing industry.
Nobody seems to be able to offer an explaination and that void leads to suspicion. The manufacturers are caught in the middle and like consumers, don't know themselves which to believe. That sounds cagey, like they are hiding something when they'd be best saying "I don't know". IMO the fact they tested is due dilligence with what is currently known.
But there's still a lot to learn. I've also seen comments that nicotine extraction requires fermentation and that can lead to the base having levels of diacetyl due to insufficient filtration of acetolactate (a precurser). It may not be just the flavorings. Diketones are turning out to be chasing phantom elements and not as black and white as many would like it to be.
Just because a liquid tests over the limit for NIOSH related standards doesn't take into account that liquid is also combined with air that further dilutes it and that also poses more questions, positive and negative, about safety. Absolute answers may not be on the horizon for awhile but that doesn't mean consumers should stop pushing for them and maybe we need to prepare to balance the risks while this is sorted out. My own opinion is that accurate testing equipment and protocols are yet to be developed.
I know from artist materials that standard manufacturing practice takes raw material supplier testing and carries that info forward. The manufacturer rarely does independent testing beyond that. The fact some flavoring companies did do additional testing and now some liquid companies is exceptional and indicates that many are committed to vaping safely.
This should also give concern to other juice manufacturers who don't do testing, those that want to take their living room mixing into the public. I doubt if every mom and pop b&m store will be able to test their latest flavor conncotions. I'm kinda sad about that but that's probably the price of a maturing industry.
A meta-study of ANTZ studies proving them to be inaccurate (and that is being kind)
Safety evaluation and risk assessment of electronic cigarettes as tobacco cigarette substitutes: a systematic review
"Of note, a recent study (not included in the review because it was published later) found asthmatic smokers who switch to electronic cigarette use show significant improvement in respiratory function after 1 year of electronic cigarette use (Polosa et al. Effect of smoking abstinence and reduction in asthmatic smokers switching to electronic cigarettes: evidence for harm reversal. Int J Environm Res Public Health 2014;11:4965-4977)."
[this is a note from a site - Evidence submitted to the FDA concerning electronic cigarettes - that notes the 'harm reversal' in a study in 2014 - the latest one was March 2015) ]
IJERPH | Free Full-Text | Effect of Smoking Abstinence and Reduction in Asthmatic Smokers Switching to Electronic Cigarettes: Evidence for Harm Reversal
It's a price extracted from a maturing industry by gov't encouraged by activists who hate industry. It happens in every industry - young, maturing, fully mature. They get away with it, by couching it in 'caring for the consumer' and that seems to play well with some people - I won't further describe. But it's the same 'we know what's best for you' attitude of all ANTZ in our industry and other similar types with other industries. To say it's part of a maturing industry, tends to let these people off the hook. And to be 'understanding' when someone really doesn't understand their motives is also too forgiving of their real intent.
I think that it is very important to remember that the companies making the flavorings (I prefer this term since flavors also refers to the final liquid) are, in most cases, primarily in the business of manufacturing and selling food flavorings. This applies particularly to the sweet, custardy, buttery and fruit flavors. Many of them now state that their flavorings are not intended for vaping. They are far more likely to stop selling these flavorings to vaping companies than they are to undergo strict testing and reformulation in order to sell them for vaping.
There are a few flavoring companies that cater to the vaping industry, and they might be willing to do the best and reformulation needed. But I still think that it is the responsibility of the liquid manufacturers to ensure that they are selling safe, or at least fully and correctly labeled products.
There are a few flavoring companies that cater to the vaping industry, and they might be willing to do the best and reformulation needed. But I still think that it is the responsibility of the liquid manufacturers to ensure that they are selling safe, or at least fully and correctly labeled products.
From over a year ago: (bolding mine)
Dr. Farsalinos: "They never asked for any proof for that (which means, analytical testing with proper limits of detection). Of course, this is not an excuse, they should have shown a more professional behavior.....We emphasize the fact that none should trust any verbal or personal reassurance that diacetyl is not present in the flavorings. Only proper testing and publication of the result can provide true and trustful information. Testing is not cost-prohibitive, and will make the e-cigarette liquids even safer than they currently are. I think the industry has a perfect opportunity to show responsibility and a good face."
Donate to Dr Farsalinos' new study | Page 8 | E-Cigarette Forum
Testing is not expensive and vendors shouldn't be relying on assurance from their suppliers either.
HOw many of those do you think there are, Aikanae1? This isn't 2010 or 2011.
A lot of the ejuice companies that you think are little guys, well, they aren't. They are being made in large factories where the MOQ is 10,000 bottles. Just like the big chinese companies.
These places put your name and label on, and customize your juice. It's called a "turnkey" operation.
Want to see one? There are many others. Oftentimes, that juice you think you are getting from a "little company" is being filled by places like California Vapor. With the "little vendor's" name on it. Some people here seem totally unaware of how the ejuice environment is nowadays.
(check out the production line and tell me what you see........)
e Liquid Filling - California Vapor
All you do is either give them your recipe, OR, you can use one of theirs. In other words, if you use one of theirs, chances are your juice will be "the same" as 20 other companies.....just with YOUR label and juice name and you can name it whatever the heck you want.
If you've ordered enough ejuices in years and years, like I have, it is not one's imagination that some sorta taste the same. The chances are, it's because.........they are the same. 
Just with different names and labels. They even pack it out and ship for ya.Call a few of these companies, MOQ is in the many thousands of bottles. Since vaping became big, Ejuice companies are not poor. Most all can afford a $120 test.
And I've been saying that for a few years now.Hey, this isn't a bad thing. It's nice to know things are being made in clean rooms and factory environments that look like hangsen in China, etc. But there are very few ejuice companies that are still "mom and pop" who can't afford $120 a bottle to test juiice. That's because people arent' mixing out in an add-on shed or in the backroom storage space.
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I don't think you can say testing is easy or cheap until you've established a threshold. I have no idea what that threshold should be, but Dr F seems to think it should be miniscule. Too low for most laboratories to accurately measure I think.
By that logic, consumers should not be relying on assurances from vendors and since it is so cheap and easy to do, the consumer should have their personal juice tested (bearing the time and expense themselves) in order to satisfy their concerns.
So many of you are sounding to me like what would happen if you rolled Big Tobacco and the ANTZ in to a dough and baked up a way to overregulate and concentrate the vape industry in to a position where a few large companies will control everything.
Juice manufacturers need only test the ingredients they put in their ejuice. Or insist that the ingredient manufacturers provide test results to them. that would be the simplest and cheapest solution.
Some of the flavor companies are already providing info - but not necessarily to the strict requirements wanted by vapers, because they don't do vaping flavors, they do food flavors. And what they do for the food industry is perfectly legit.
I worry that too much pressure on the flavor mfgrs now, before there are even any good guidelines to go by, might result in them refusing to supply juice companies. That would leave smaller companies, not larger ones as some of you seem to hope for, providing the flavors. And these would be flavors that have either been approved for use in food, or not approved for use in anything.
Or maybe just BTs tobacco or menthol...
I just want people to know how their juice gets to them in many cases, and how an industry that is projected to have profits in the billions no longer really qualifiies as mom n' pop......and that what we think are smallish companies are shipping out 10,000 bottles at a time and most of them are being made in factory environments just like Hangsen in China or RJ Reynolds, etc. They are coming off conveyor belts, and aren't being made *at* the little vape shop/internet storefront. In many cases the storefront just takes the orders....they aren't even doing their own shipping anymore. They can't. It's gotten too big.
I hate to think that vapers believe somebody, for the most part, is standing around in a little room hand-pouring eliquids or something. That was probably true back in 2009 and maybe there are still a few.....
I was pretty amazed myself when I looked at the filling stuff going on at California Vaping, and all the other WHITE LABEL turnkey ejuice factories springing up all over the place. I found at least a whole page of them, in the blink of an eye, just by googling. Even Johnson Creek has expanded into "making ejuice for other companies".
Johnson Creek Enterprises Expands E-Liquid Manufacturing in America -- HARTLAND, Wis., April 20, 2015 /PRNewswire/ --
This has to be done, because most eliquid companies are NOT going to be able to build out huge manufacturing plants....either they don't want to make the investment, or they just don't want to man and manage a facility of that size.
I just wanted vapers to know that a ton of these Turnkey, White Label labs exist now, and most likely, some of the ejuice you buy from a little storefront on the internet is being labeled, manufacturered, put on pallets, and shipped to the customer by someone else nowadays. And it may be a recipe that is in-house, or a recipe that is custom.
Some of them even have lists of their house flavors..........you will notice um.......similarities.
I thought the photo from the California Vapor site, filling bottles with a brand name many are familiar with, would make it clearer to vapers what the eliquid industry has become, and moreso, where it's GOING.
e Liquid Filling - California Vapor
eLiquid Manufacturing - Molecule Labs
Superior Products | e-Liquid Manufacturing | CleanVape e-Juice
eLiquid Whitelabel Program - Your Own Branded eJuice - AllVapeWareHouse
Best E-Liquid Wholesale Suppliers | E Cig + Cigarette Liquid Wholesale
Accutek Packaging Equipment | The solution for all your bottling and packaging equipment needs
American Cleanroom Systems E-Liquid Cleanrooms
Wholesale E-Liquid Supplier | 100% US Made E-Juice For The Best Price
Everything Liquid | The Grumpy Vaper
White label e-liquid wholesalers - E-liquid branded to your logo
White label e-liquid wholesalers - E-liquid branded to your logo
COMPLETE TURNKEY PROCESSING PLANT OR LINES: Fruit juice Suppliers and Manufactures
conceptliquids
I could do this all day but you get the picture.
So it's a little unbelievable when I hear that MOST ejuice brands can't afford $120 per bottle to test a line of eliquids.
Most can.
The other reason I'm posting about this phenomena is because the FDA won't be putting mom n' pop out of business......they're being put out of biz by BIG VAPING.....it's gotten very sophisticated. Unless anybody here thinks somebody can make, label, store on palletes 5,000 bottles of eliquid a week. I mean maybe there are a few mom n' pops doing 50 bottles a day or something. In that case, they are already at a disadvantage, as they will be run over by the marketing techniques that is affordable to the big guys. You have to be able to reach customers and compete in this marketplace now.....not easy.
I'm sure there are some little vape shops that mix you up some ejuice, and they are happy to get 15 or 20 bottles out the door every day. But those are not the *brands* . The *brands* are big.
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Ever wonder how so many "personalities" in our industry come out with lines, but yet you've never ever heard one of them talk about actually DIYIng?
for me i started vaping to quit smoking, hardest part was finding my tobacco flavor, once found i weened myself off of the tobacco flavor and started vaping candy or juice flavors, took about 1 month.
i now diy my juice using about 2% flavorings and 4mg nic.
im not a flavor junkie, i keep it dead simple, like how smoking was, and after seeing how the juice is marketed/made/sold im glad i diy at <$1 per 30mls.
imo ymmv yada yada
i now diy my juice using about 2% flavorings and 4mg nic.
im not a flavor junkie, i keep it dead simple, like how smoking was, and after seeing how the juice is marketed/made/sold im glad i diy at <$1 per 30mls.
imo ymmv yada yada
It's already the smaller ones that are doing this. The larger ones refuse to deal with the vape industry because of insurance/liability issues. The companies providing flavoring for vendors are for the most part compounders and re-distributors, not root manufacturers.
Which is why they only "find out" that the flavors they, ahem, make have diketones. They are almost just as oblivious (without a test) as those buying from them.
HOw many of those do you think there are, Aikanae1? This isn't 2010 or 2011.
A lot of the ejuice companies that you think are little guys, well, they aren't. They are being made in large factories where the MOQ is 10,000 bottles. Just like the big chinese companies.
These places put your name and label on, and customize your juice. It's called a "turnkey" operation.
Want to see one? There are many others. Oftentimes, that juice you think you are getting from a "little company" is being filled by places like California Vapor. With the "little vendor's" name on it. Some people here seem totally unaware of how the ejuice environment is nowadays.
(check out the production line and tell me what you see........)
e Liquid Filling - California Vapor
All you do is either give them your recipe, OR, you can use one of theirs. In other words, if you use one of theirs, chances are your juice will be "the same" as 20 other companies.....just with YOUR label and juice name and you can name it whatever the heck you want.
Call a few of these companies, MOQ is in the many thousands of bottles. Since vaping became big, Ejuice companies are not poor. Most all can afford a $120 test.
Hey, this isn't a bad thing. It's nice to know things are being made in clean rooms and factory environments that look like hangsen in China, etc. But there are very few ejuice companies that are still "mom and pop" who can't afford $120 a bottle to test juiice. That's because people arent' mixing out in an add-on shed or in the backroom storage space.
They provide "independent/3rd party testing" as well for the vendors interested . The larger vendors know full well what's in their juice. Does anyone honestly believe Cuttwood and Cosmic Fog were surprised by the results of Vaporshark testing ? They obviously didn't want the consumer to know though. They aren't juice makers in the traditional sense, they are branding and marketing companies.
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So that would explain why TFA, arguably one of the biggest flavor vendors for ejuice companies and DIY, talks about not being sure what is in some of the flavors they acquire from other companies? The wording is a bit too vague for me to be sure, but I think they do create many, but not all, of their own flavors - FlavorWorkshopPartI
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